Author

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1505. (Read 2032274 times)

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 08, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
asking to have very single transaction on the block chain is like asking to get the cash each time someone buy something with a cc on your store

Asking that the cash you wish to spend be handed over to a quasi-bank-thing which is probably considered illegal and a national security threat by TPTB is like...well...giving your money to 'Tom Williams'.

There is nothing 'wrong' with the solution per-se; It's just not the same thing as the Bitcoin which appealed to me in the early days.

N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
May 08, 2012, 10:21:38 AM
I believe it will just gap up a dollar or two within 24h someday, and then we enter a multimonth move.

For now though, the trend of trendlessness continues to rule.

as long as it holds right here that's BULLISH. and then you're right, we'll gap up.
OK, agreed! Since it would be literally doing higher lows and higher highs (5.48>5.45).
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 08, 2012, 10:16:17 AM
I believe it will just gap up a dollar or two within 24h someday, and then we enter a multimonth move.

For now though, the trend of trendlessness continues to rule.

as long as it holds right here that's BULLISH. and then you're right, we'll gap up.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 08, 2012, 10:12:02 AM

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.



Vast majority of those 250000 transactions are going to be small transactions that need instant confirmation, which means they will not be handled directly by bitcoin network. There will be a bunch of payment processors who will provide instant confirmation functionality, and use bitcoin network itself to regularly balance the books between themselves.

So the Bitcoin network would rely on independent 'banks' of some sort to offload the accounting to?  Or you believe that it could handle such traffic if it needed to?

N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
May 08, 2012, 10:10:30 AM
I believe it will just gap up a dollar or two within 24h someday, and then we enter a multimonth move.

For now though, the trend of trendlessness continues to rule.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 08, 2012, 10:06:11 AM
last chance to buy Bitcoin under $5.
Final last ultimate chance this time before we never ever go back again?! Grin Grin Grin

I’ll just quote myself from this thread:

Meanwhile, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-great-spring-stability-of-2012-new-poll-june-edition-78834

(since in the past weeks everyone seems to be freaking out over 10 cent moves whereas the larger picture remains identical)

you know my theory from the newsletter.  i think it may be so.
N12
donator
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1010
May 08, 2012, 09:58:35 AM
last chance to buy Bitcoin under $5.
Final last ultimate chance this time before we never ever go back again?! Grin Grin Grin

I’ll just quote myself from this thread:

Meanwhile, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-great-spring-stability-of-2012-new-poll-june-edition-78834

(since in the past weeks everyone seems to be freaking out over 10 cent moves whereas the larger picture remains identical)
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 08, 2012, 09:56:01 AM
last chance to buy Bitcoin under $5.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 08, 2012, 09:48:18 AM
Wink.  

Everything down today.  ;(

The market, gold, AAPL, BTC.. ;(

Lets blame it on the French!!

what's the score?
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
May 08, 2012, 09:46:24 AM
Wink.  

Everything down today.  ;(

The market, gold, AAPL, BTC.. ;(

Lets blame it on the French!!
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 08, 2012, 08:47:12 AM
let's not be so negative and instead look at this from a positive perspective:



legendary
Activity: 826
Merit: 1001
rippleFanatic
hero member
Activity: 731
Merit: 503
Libertas a calumnia
May 08, 2012, 06:33:45 AM
you gotta learn to think big.  what if gov'ts decide it's in their best interests to adopt Bitcoin?
Now I have to remind you that gov'ts have always had gold (that is the best and hard money) but they invented fiat money expressly for having a money that follows their rules and not the other way around.

Sound money is not in the best interest of gov'ts and I think it's much better to prepare for the moment where all business in btc will be forbidden in some nations.
newbie
Activity: 59
Merit: 0
May 08, 2012, 05:41:41 AM

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.



Vast majority of those 250000 transactions are going to be small transactions that need instant confirmation, which means they will not be handled directly by bitcoin network. There will be a bunch of payment processors who will provide instant confirmation functionality, and use bitcoin network itself to regularly balance the books between themselves.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 08, 2012, 02:16:18 AM

actually the way i see it evolving is that Bitcoin would take the place of gold similar to the gold reserve system we had up until 1971. 

That is the way I would like to see it evolving and at one time had hoped to see it evolving, but cannot see a mechanism for that to transpire at this point in time (thus my thought experiments on 'bakcoin'.)

Essentially Bitcoin is just to good as an exchange currency and there is no practical way to stop people from using it.

I think that there is a possibility that within the space of hours, the problem Bitcoin could face is how to discourage users rather than encourage them, and do so in a way that preserves the reputation of the solution.  If such an event happened it would correspond to a failure of other currencies and would occur at the time when the Bitcoin solution was needed the most.

actually you're right, Bitcoin is an excellent transactional currency as well as a store of value which makes it unique among monetary experiments and it's prospects so bright as far as i'm concerned.

I don't find this particularly unique to be honest.  Probably it's more common than not.  Shells with holes in them served the Native Americans admirably in their time.

I will agree that Bitcoin is a wonderfully capable exchange medium for our time...and I hope it pans out as a good store of value as well.  I must reiterate that I see limitations about exactly how capable it proves if called upon to live up to it's potential demand.

gold has history as a store of value but lacks transactional flexibility and may have become obsolete with the advent of the Internet.

If anything, I see the lack of transactional flexibility as a positive for a reserve store of value.  Things which can take flight easily tend to be easier to lose, and if one is dipping into one's reserves on a regular basis than one probably has other issues to deal with.

I would also argue that the Internet is significantly secondary to the telegraph and radio in terms of being a revolutionary step forward.  All pale compared to the printing press, and that pales compared to writing language itself.

as i understand the old gold standard, individuals would lend their gold holdings to the nations that treated their fiat currencies with respect.  if those countries got out of hand by resorting to the printing press, these same individuals would yank their gold holdings out of those countries thus decreasing it's reserves and providing a disciplinary hammer to those profligate nations.  it was a self regulating system according to free market principles and worked well as far as i can tell.

I think that most governments have had plenty of money of their own obtained through selling resources, imposing tariffs, etc.  Anyway, the gold standard can and has existed without government involvement, and with fractional characteristics.  To me, a 'gold standard' simply means that the net worth of an entity is based on how much gold they control.

why couldn't the same system be set up with Bitcoin replacing gold?

Probably could, but it would take some sort of incentive.  Something more compelling that 'cypherdoc hopes so.' Wink

Gold is one of the few things that is even more simple than a stone ax.  That is a very appealing characteristic to me, and probably to a lot of other people on the face of the earth as well.
legendary
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1005
May 08, 2012, 01:01:10 AM
I think it was you who was potentially interested in my 'bakcoin' idea some months ago.  I hacked out some material around that time, but have been off on other completely unrelated interests since and have not touched it.  I'd have to do (much) more work before presenting it as an alternate crypto-currency or whatever, but here's what I've got for those who might be interested:

  http://bakcoin.org

Yes, it was me Smiley

I'll have to revisit the topic again.


Velocity ought to be a potential accelerant for a given asset's valuation; i.e. as more transactions are performed using Bitcoin at a stable exchange level, its unit value will eventually follow.

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.

Artificial caps are currently in place. Those won't be necessary forever. Also, hardware (esp. optical switching) is advancing at a rate that will provide the Bitcoin network with more than sufficient capacity to handle the volume described.

Bitcoin scalability issues are not an all-or-nothing proposition. At a maximum rate, further increases in volume will cause a growing backlog. It will become readily apparent, and existing artificial restrictions can be lifted. Further down the road, additional capacity can be added - processing, storage, and bandwidth. Existing dynamics are not the same as what the focus will be as the network matures.

That is the way I would like to see it evolving and at one time had hoped to see it evolving, but cannot see a mechanism for that to transpire at this point in time (thus my thought experiments on 'bakcoin'.)

Essentially Bitcoin is just to good as an exchange currency and there is no practical way to stop people from using it.

I think that there is a possibility that within the space of hours, the problem Bitcoin could face is how to discourage users rather than encourage them, and do so in a way that preserves the reputation of the solution.  If such an event happened it would correspond to a failure of other currencies and would occur at the time when the Bitcoin solution was needed the most.

There's no reason to stop people from using Bitcoin. As suggested earlier, I think velocity influences a nascent monetary asset's valuation, and therefore its growth. A transition point is then reached once a saturation level (escape velocity?) is attained, whereupon the asset shifts from primarily (or even exclusively) transactional to a growing storage purpose. That's basically the making for a bubble, like tulips; they didn't have any way of being a store of value, though.

If you imagine slowly pouring water into a large glass cylinder, the water first spreads out to fill the bottom, then begins to rise as the volume expands in the direction of least resistance. Juxtapose the water with Bitcoin and my view is that the latter is filling a container representing the 21mm unit limit (base of container) and network capacity in hardware support (height of container). In this sense, the initial growth phase is two-dimensional. Scalability would be an additional dimension limited by the height of the container.

If the container's limits are exceeded, there will certainly be spillover but not a collapse - the container is made of cryptography that hasn't been compromised & the hardware it runs on. That excess would simply flow into other containers (fiat, gold, etc), generating an increased dynamic of scarcity for Bitcoin, assuming most alternatives remain as feeble as fiat currencies. Any over-exuberance would be tempered, resulting in a self-correcting equilibrium for the Bitcoin network, although how rapidly that happens depends on the how far the capacity overshoot is.

The velocity/volume issue could be equated to the problem of transporting & storing physical precious metals. Realistically and practically, only so much can be moved or held at any given time. Development of a high capacity "backbone" is already occurring naturally among some of the largest mining operations, which is one way scalability can be managed. It wasn't the end of the Internet and it won't be the end of Bitcoin, because neither are static.

actually you're right, Bitcoin is an excellent transactional currency as well as a store of value which makes it unique among monetary experiments and it's prospects so bright as far as i'm concerned.

gold has history as a store of value but lacks transactional flexibility and may have become obsolete with the advent of the Internet. 

I wish more people would get this! That would make for destructive growth, though... le sigh - patience.

as i understand the old gold standard, individuals would lend their gold holdings to the nations that treated their fiat currencies with respect.  if those countries got out of hand by resorting to the printing press, these same individuals would yank their gold holdings out of those countries thus decreasing it's reserves and providing a disciplinary hammer to those profligate nations.  it was a self regulating system according to free market principles and worked well as far as i can tell.

why couldn't the same system be set up with Bitcoin replacing gold?

Yes, basically bank runs without the possibility of bailouts because of the physical properties of gold. The same type of system is already developing with FPS&T/BS&T and others. Not to mention a growing infrastructure with equities, futures, options, and synthetic derivatives.

Satoshi opened Pandora's box Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 09:34:35 PM

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.



actually the way i see it evolving is that Bitcoin would take the place of gold similar to the gold reserve system we had up until 1971. 

That is the way I would like to see it evolving and at one time had hoped to see it evolving, but cannot see a mechanism for that to transpire at this point in time (thus my thought experiments on 'bakcoin'.)

Essentially Bitcoin is just to good as an exchange currency and there is no practical way to stop people from using it.

I think that there is a possibility that within the space of hours, the problem Bitcoin could face is how to discourage users rather than encourage them, and do so in a way that preserves the reputation of the solution.  If such an event happened it would correspond to a failure of other currencies and would occur at the time when the Bitcoin solution was needed the most.



actually you're right, Bitcoin is an excellent transactional currency as well as a store of value which makes it unique among monetary experiments and it's prospects so bright as far as i'm concerned.

gold has history as a store of value but lacks transactional flexibility and may have become obsolete with the advent of the Internet. 

as i understand the old gold standard, individuals would lend their gold holdings to the nations that treated their fiat currencies with respect.  if those countries got out of hand by resorting to the printing press, these same individuals would yank their gold holdings out of those countries thus decreasing it's reserves and providing a disciplinary hammer to those profligate nations.  it was a self regulating system according to free market principles and worked well as far as i can tell.

why couldn't the same system be set up with Bitcoin replacing gold?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 09:23:09 PM
This is a pretty nice chart:



Here's another one:

legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
May 07, 2012, 09:07:34 PM

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.



actually the way i see it evolving is that Bitcoin would take the place of gold similar to the gold reserve system we had up until 1971. 

That is the way I would like to see it evolving and at one time had hoped to see it evolving, but cannot see a mechanism for that to transpire at this point in time (thus my thought experiments on 'bakcoin'.)

Essentially Bitcoin is just to good as an exchange currency and there is no practical way to stop people from using it.

I think that there is a possibility that within the space of hours, the problem Bitcoin could face is how to discourage users rather than encourage them, and do so in a way that preserves the reputation of the solution.  If such an event happened it would correspond to a failure of other currencies and would occur at the time when the Bitcoin solution was needed the most.

legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1002
May 07, 2012, 08:36:57 PM

By my two-second calculations, if about half of the worlds population were using Bitcoin and making 2 transactions per day, a flat average would be about 70,000 transactions per second.  To account for peaks which one typically finds in network service use, better bump that up to about 250,000 transactions/sec.  Then one must consider the potential for DOS attacks.

Contrast this with the .25  (aka 1/4) transactions/sec at the current high.

As currently implemented, Bitcoin scales until it fails then that's all she wrote.  Ultimately I would be more comfortable with a solution which anticipated 'sharding' of some sort, and it seems logical and workable to combine this with a multitude of crypto-currencies each tuned to offer various advantages to their user base.

Of course the 'money changers' would have a hey-day in such an environment, but that fine.  Probably open systems would develop to make things less costly for end-users.  Some guy had a link to such a project a while ago.  I think it was on Docmeister's Bitcoin-2 post.



actually the way i see it evolving is that Bitcoin would take the place of gold similar to the gold reserve system we had up until 1971. 
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