Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1503.

2weiX

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Quote from: N12 on May 10, 2012, 04:54:18 AM

Quote from: 2weiX on May 10, 2012, 02:22:14 AM

Bitcoin is in no way whatsoever superior to Gold as a storage device for value, since it is NOT A STORAGE DEVICE FOR VALUE (emphasis mine).

Why not? Because you say so? Bitcoin seems to work as a long-term store of value very well so far.

I think Bitcoin makes Gold (as a money) obsolete.

Gold isn't money.
Gold was used as something to represent (back) money.
Gold is a store of value since it has had roughly the same barter value for the last 2000 years.

The deflationary nature of Bitcoin makes it seem that they are a nice way to store money, because there is a semi-limited supply of Gold, and Bitcoin are "mined"!
Since, there is nothing to "represent" Bitcoin other than fiat (and we're trying to avoid fiat right?), the only storage Bitcoin is is for ...Bitcoin.
The electronic nature makes it perfect for moving value.
To define something with ~3-year history suffering ~2000%+ volatility as "perfect store for value" is just downright funny.

N12

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Quote from: 2weiX on May 10, 2012, 02:22:14 AM

Bitcoin is in no way whatsoever superior to Gold as a storage device for value, since it is NOT A STORAGE DEVICE FOR VALUE (emphasis mine).

Why not? Because you say so? Bitcoin seems to work as a long-term store of value very well so far.

I think Bitcoin makes Gold (as a money) obsolete.

2weiX

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Quote from: N12 on May 10, 2012, 01:24:24 AM

Quote from: 2weiX on May 10, 2012, 12:32:52 AM

Somewhere in the last few post the difference between Bitcoins and Gold was (re-re-re)discovered and (once again!) stated, so I will repeat:

Bitcoins are a means of MOVING value.
Gold/Silver are a means of STORING value (silver less so than gold imho).

With metals, I have no idea how much supply is around and how much will be found in the future (and at what rate). Counterfeiting can also be a problem. There are tons of other advantages since it is easy to store anywhere, cannot be confiscated etc. So technically, Bitcoin is superior to fulfill a role as a store of value.

Also, have you looked at a long-term Bitcoin chart? I say Bitcoin is Gold 2.0.

Bitcoin is in no way whatsoever superior to Gold as a storage device for value, since it is NOT A STORAGE DEVICE FOR VALUE (emphasis mine).

Counterfeiting and discovery of new supplies can be viewed as double-spending-attempts and new forks.
The moment in which Gold will become obsolete as ultimate store of value will indeed be when someone manages to find a metric shitmile of it in space.

N12

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Quote from: 2weiX on May 10, 2012, 12:32:52 AM

Somewhere in the last few post the difference between Bitcoins and Gold was (re-re-re)discovered and (once again!) stated, so I will repeat:

Bitcoins are a means of MOVING value.
Gold/Silver are a means of STORING value (silver less so than gold imho).

With metals, I have no idea how much supply is around and how much will be found in the future (and at what rate). Counterfeiting can also be a problem. There are tons of other advantages since it is easy to store anywhere, cannot be confiscated etc. So technically, Bitcoin is superior to fulfill a role as a store of value.

Also, have you looked at a long-term Bitcoin chart? I say Bitcoin is Gold 2.0.

miscreanity

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Quote from: bitcool on May 09, 2012, 05:21:59 PM

I think PM are doing just fine. The negative correlation between PM and USD in recent months shows their potential as an anti-dollar asset class.

On the other hand, I am super disappointed with BTC's inability of reflecting any event happening in the currency market, an indication in my mind that very few people treat it as a serious currency.

I see Bitcoin as an indicator of the real value of gold, and real assets in general. It isn't gold that's fluctuating: it's fiat.

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 09, 2012, 10:14:43 PM

ALL asset classes are moving counter to the USD EXCEPT Bitcoin. This is a positive as far as I'm concerned.

Bitcoin is the only non-real, financial asset whose value cannot be directly obfuscated.

Quote from: tvbcof on May 09, 2012, 10:48:47 PM

What I believe could drive real adoption of Bitcoin would be a failure of the alternatives. Right now I know a fair amount about Bitcoin and like much of what I know about it. I also dis-like a lot of aspects of our fiat-based systems. That said, I happily go about using USD, Paypal, Visa, etc. They work fine. If/when they stop working fine I'll (hopefully) be switching over to actually using Bitcoin.

Yes, a catastrophic failure of other systems would propel Bitcoin to the forefront. That may not be necessary, though - there's a lot going on behind the scenes as far as supporting infrastructure development. This is likely to cause adoption in less developed nations before the first world caves and uses it.

Quote from: 2weiX on May 10, 2012, 12:32:52 AM

Bitcoins are a means of MOVING value.
Gold/Silver are a means of STORING value (silver less so than gold imho).

For now... stock to flow ratios will eventually make Bitcoin even more attractive as a store of value than gold & silver.

2weiX

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Somewhere in the last few post the difference between Bitcoins and Gold was (re-re-re)discovered and (once again!) stated, so I will repeat:

Bitcoins are a means of MOVING value.
Gold/Silver are a means of STORING value (silver less so than gold imho).

tvbcof

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Quote from: bitcool on May 09, 2012, 05:21:59 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 09:17:03 PM

pm's sinking faster and faster now that we've cleared $1600...it will get worse once we clear the December lows...

Yawn. I've been hearing effectively the same thing for a decade. (A decade of watching it grow several-fold as everyone knows...ya, ya, I know; this time it'll be different...the cycles...blah, blah, blah.)

Quote from: bitcool on May 09, 2012, 05:21:59 PM

I think PM are doing just fine. The negative correlation between PM and USD in recent months shows their potential as an anti-dollar asset class.

On the other hand, I am super disappointed with BTC's inability of reflecting any event happening in the currency market, an indication in my mind that very few people treat it as a serious currency.

edit: snipped the part I meant to respond to...

Quote from: waveaddict on May 09, 2012, 05:47:00 PM

Bitcoin will only be treated as a serious currency if it's noticed by the general public, and it will only be noticed by the general public if the price of it heads a lot higher. Its as simple as that Wink

I suspect that valuations will have relatively little to do with adoption. High valuations may (and have) attracted attention and spur some amount of interest, but only a tiny amount in the scheme of things since the number of people who have even heard of it, much less use or understand it is minuscule.

What I believe could drive real adoption of Bitcoin would be a failure of the alternatives. Right now I know a fair amount about Bitcoin and like much of what I know about it. I also dis-like a lot of aspects of our fiat-based systems. That said, I happily go about using USD, Paypal, Visa, etc. They work fine. If/when they stop working fine I'll (hopefully) be switching over to actually using Bitcoin.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: bitcool on May 09, 2012, 05:21:59 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 09:17:03 PM

pm's sinking faster and faster now that we've cleared $1600...it will get worse once we clear the December lows...

I think PM are doing just fine. The negative correlation between PM and USD in recent months shows their potential as an anti-dollar asset class.

On the other hand, I am super disappointed with BTC's inability of reflecting any event happening in the currency market, an indication in my mind that very few people treat it as a serious currency.

ALL asset classes are moving counter to the USD EXCEPT Bitcoin. This is a positive as far as I'm concerned.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: miscreanity on May 08, 2012, 04:08:33 PM

I find it particularly telling that the dollar index still can't get a handle above 80 with everything else diving, and the long bond isn't exactly skyrocketing either.

take a look again. Wink

waveaddict

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Quote from: bitcool on May 09, 2012, 05:21:59 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 09:17:03 PM

pm's sinking faster and faster now that we've cleared $1600...it will get worse once we clear the December lows...

I think PM are doing just fine. The negative correlation between PM and USD in recent months shows their potential as an anti-dollar asset class.

On the other hand, I am super disappointed with BTC's inability of reflecting any event happening in the currency market, an indication in my mind that very few people treat it as a serious currency.

Bitcoin will only be treated as a serious currency if it's noticed by the general public, and it will only be noticed by the general public if the price of it heads a lot higher. Its as simple as that Wink

bitcool

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Live and enjoy experiments

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 09:17:03 PM

pm's sinking faster and faster now that we've cleared $1600...it will get worse once we clear the December lows...

I think PM are doing just fine. The negative correlation between PM and USD in recent months shows their potential as an anti-dollar asset class.

On the other hand, I am super disappointed with BTC's inability of reflecting any event happening in the currency market, an indication in my mind that very few people treat it as a serious currency.

tvbcof

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Another Score: 5/9/12

year ago now delta mult
BTC 3.75 5.03 + 1.34
Gold 1510 1590 + 1.05

--------------------------
ref (for future updates):
http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/mtgoxUSD#czsg2011-05-08zeg2011-05-08ztgSzm1g10zm2g25zv (change date)
http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html (hist cgi at bottom)
mult=now/year_ago

Quote from: tvbcof on May 08, 2012, 01:35:28 PM

Another Score: 5/8/12

year ago now delta mult
BTC 3.64 5.03 + 1.38
Gold 1497 1605 + 1.07

MatthewLM

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To think Nautilus will do well, you have to assume they can actually mine at the concentrations in their resource estimate report and that the costs can remain under control. So it all sounds interesting but things usually turn out worse than planned.

miscreanity

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Quote from: MatthewLM on May 09, 2012, 12:08:42 PM

What do people think to this company? No ordinary mining company, they aim to use undersea mining for metals: http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Home.asp

I've been following Nautilus for a few years - huge potential, although acquiring permits & rights was a tortuously slow process.

With the amount being brought up, there may be a brief period of real gold value stagnation as the stock to flow ratio changes exceed global economic growth. It won't do anything to disrupt current valuation, though - 5-digit minimum USD value is a foregone conclusion.

Asteroid mining would definitely have a greater impact, but that's at least a decade away. Maybe there'll be a gold cartel, similar to the diamond cartel of today. In fact, I think the diamond cartel has done a much better job of maintaining stability than the Fed or any other central bank...

tvbcof

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Quote from: Kluge on May 09, 2012, 12:16:22 PM

Quote from: MatthewLM on May 09, 2012, 12:08:42 PM

What do people think to this company? No ordinary mining company, they aim to use undersea mining for metals: http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Home.asp

Lame. Get to the asteroids, already.

I suspect that we'll run out of the energy and capital needed to do undersea mining before we run out of suitable surface reserves. But I've not studied the abundance and quality of sub-sea deposits.

The most tenable thing seems to me to be nanotechnology to snatch elements of interest out of the environment. And to build molecules of interest if they are the target.

Next most tenable thing would be to use the effectively unlimited energy supply of nuclear fusion to transmutate elements to the desired ones.

Lastly would be to undertake to try to locate and exploit reserves in outer space.

So, there are some possible modes of significant inflation in a PM based economy. The all strike me as some distance out, but I keep my eyes open. The possible failure modes of Bitcoin strike me as a much more significant and immediate concern.

Kluge

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Quote from: MatthewLM on May 09, 2012, 12:08:42 PM

What do people think to this company? No ordinary mining company, they aim to use undersea mining for metals: http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Home.asp

Lame. Get to the asteroids, already.

MatthewLM

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What do people think to this company? No ordinary mining company, they aim to use undersea mining for metals: http://www.nautilusminerals.com/s/Home.asp

proudhon

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Quote from: silverbox on May 09, 2012, 09:50:20 AM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 09, 2012, 09:01:38 AM

Quote from: silverbox on May 08, 2012, 03:57:55 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 01:00:18 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 09:48:18 AM

Quote from: silverbox on May 08, 2012, 09:46:24 AM

.

Everything down today. ;(

The market, gold, AAPL, BTC.. ;(

Lets blame it on the French!!

what's the score?

what, you only want to give the score when you want to? Wink

I just did it yesterday!

I have a headache Wink

the headache must be huge about now; btw, what's the score? Wink

Yeah its getting ugly. The fed needs to make some noise about QE3 right about now..

The score:

this thread was started 3/13

Bitcoin 5.40

Gold 1690.

today 5/9

Bitcoin 5.06 (down ~6%)

Gold 1588 (down ~6%)

BTC still isn't up Wink

. Gold is now doing just as badly as BTC. Its a tie!! Wink

AAPL 563

Thanks for the update.

cypherdoc

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Quote from: silverbox on May 09, 2012, 09:47:21 AM

Quote from: miscreanity on May 08, 2012, 10:19:26 PM

In the race to debase

lol I like that.

Wait, wait, wait; i'm the marketer here. it's:

The Race to Debace.

even if it isn't going to work Wink

silverbox

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Quote from: cypherdoc on May 09, 2012, 09:01:38 AM

Quote from: silverbox on May 08, 2012, 03:57:55 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 01:00:18 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on May 08, 2012, 09:48:18 AM

Quote from: silverbox on May 08, 2012, 09:46:24 AM

.

Everything down today. ;(

The market, gold, AAPL, BTC.. ;(

Lets blame it on the French!!

what's the score?

what, you only want to give the score when you want to? Wink

I just did it yesterday!

I have a headache Wink

the headache must be huge about now; btw, what's the score? Wink

Yeah its getting ugly. The fed needs to make some noise about QE3 right about now..

The score:

this thread was started 3/13

Bitcoin 5.40

Gold 1690.

today 5/9

Bitcoin 5.06 (down ~6%)

Gold 1588 (down ~6%)

BTC still isn't up Wink

. Gold is now doing just as badly as BTC. Its a tie!! Wink

AAPL 563

Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. - page 1503. (Read 2032274 times)