Topic: [GOX] Crime Scene Investigation, Case #MG744 - page 11. (Read 47015 times)
People are already doing this. #1 idea is that the US Feds have control of the Cold Storage keys.
Just another theory which might be part of the puzzle..
1) Both the REAL BTC and USD were long ago channeled out of MtGox, MtGox operating a fractional reserve (somewhere between june 2013 when Karpeles proved he had 424k BTC under his control and now
2) He kept just enough funds in the hot wallet to be able to pay out withdrawals with whatever more he made out of fees
3) Intentionally he delayed withdrawals, leading to the USD price on gox shooting up, allowing him to do arbitrage with the complicity of another exchange and people close to him, traveling to receive the USD directly in japan and channel it back to the exchange conspiring
3.b) There was also probably a bot running on MtGox profiting from the smallest difference in buy/sell, being able to trade at no fees.
Another way of manipulation used, was to deliberate shoot the price up and down in sharp spikes, sending signals to other exchanges, and being able to buy/sell with pre-knowledge of where the price would go.
Since the goxBTC/goxUSD were not real anyway and via manipulation he had a large piece of them, it was easy for him to control where the price goes.
4) At some point when there was not much to be made anymore with this scheme, as people would simply not deposit USD anymore into MtGox he decided to pull the plug of BTC deposits as well
5) The intention to pull the plug on BTC deposits was to create a panic and shoot the BTC price down on MtGox. This allowed him to buy up a lot of cheap goxBTC along with what he already had on the exchange.
Those goxBTC and goxUSD were already worthless as not backed up by REAL btc/usd. They were just IOUs
6) Knowing the goxBTC he holds is worthless, he dumped them all in one go, creating another mass panic and shooting the price down to 91.5 USD, allowing him to buy even more BTC at the bottom, followed by a sharp spike up, creating another panic.
Rinse and repeat until he has shaken out the very last bit of most customers both in goxUSD and goxBTC.
7) The final kill blow was when he again used the now massive amounts of goxBTC to shoot the price down to 135 and close shop
Now that shop was closed, he could file bankruptcy and claim he owes people only 135 per BTC as this was what they were trading for at this point before shutting it down. Not allowing others to channel money in and buy the price up again
9) With all the manipulation he managed to drive down the liabilities to his customers down to a minimum
10) People thinking they lost all, in shock, will be grateful to even get 135 per BTC once this is over. They will be willing to sign anything anything to get at least something out, preventing them from further demands in the future
11) Gox will rise up again under a new label Gox.com, now having millions of scammed BTC and USD in their pockets, while having had to pay only 1/10th of liabilities to the former customers
1) Both the REAL BTC and USD were long ago channeled out of MtGox, MtGox operating a fractional reserve (somewhere between june 2013 when Karpeles proved he had 424k BTC under his control and now
2) He kept just enough funds in the hot wallet to be able to pay out withdrawals with whatever more he made out of fees
3) Intentionally he delayed withdrawals, leading to the USD price on gox shooting up, allowing him to do arbitrage with the complicity of another exchange and people close to him, traveling to receive the USD directly in japan and channel it back to the exchange conspiring
3.b) There was also probably a bot running on MtGox profiting from the smallest difference in buy/sell, being able to trade at no fees.
Another way of manipulation used, was to deliberate shoot the price up and down in sharp spikes, sending signals to other exchanges, and being able to buy/sell with pre-knowledge of where the price would go.
Since the goxBTC/goxUSD were not real anyway and via manipulation he had a large piece of them, it was easy for him to control where the price goes.
4) At some point when there was not much to be made anymore with this scheme, as people would simply not deposit USD anymore into MtGox he decided to pull the plug of BTC deposits as well
5) The intention to pull the plug on BTC deposits was to create a panic and shoot the BTC price down on MtGox. This allowed him to buy up a lot of cheap goxBTC along with what he already had on the exchange.
Those goxBTC and goxUSD were already worthless as not backed up by REAL btc/usd. They were just IOUs
6) Knowing the goxBTC he holds is worthless, he dumped them all in one go, creating another mass panic and shooting the price down to 91.5 USD, allowing him to buy even more BTC at the bottom, followed by a sharp spike up, creating another panic.
Rinse and repeat until he has shaken out the very last bit of most customers both in goxUSD and goxBTC.
7) The final kill blow was when he again used the now massive amounts of goxBTC to shoot the price down to 135 and close shop
Now that shop was closed, he could file bankruptcy and claim he owes people only 135 per BTC as this was what they were trading for at this point before shutting it down. Not allowing others to channel money in and buy the price up again9) With all the manipulation he managed to drive down the liabilities to his customers down to a minimum
10) People thinking they lost all, in shock, will be grateful to even get 135 per BTC once this is over. They will be willing to sign anything anything to get at least something out, preventing them from further demands in the future
11) Gox will rise up again under a new label Gox.com, now having millions of scammed BTC and USD in their pockets, while having had to pay only 1/10th of liabilities to the former customers
I found one Gox-ishly looking address that was in this block: https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000387df74a7bf9038634760435a1e5c3cebaef5084df48161ad exactly on the expected day 22 Dec 2013 when your coins were transfered from Gox by Karpeles / Gox's money maker.
BTC 5,000 were sent to this address: https://blockchain.info/address/1CJBqJ3MwUVVNsqXpJx8Aecc3PWxSWPmUc BTC 31k received from exchange-ishly looking inputs, with first test of BTC 1 sent on 16 Dec 2013. There are lots of addresses (as you dig deeper) that have transaction of BTC 1 made on 16 Dec 2013, there are also transactions made prior to this date that have ALWAYS a test transaction of BTC 1.
Further investigation of outputs will lead you to addresses that had BTC 16k, 70k or more (some of these wallets are being used right now) - these were / are the new exchange's hot wallets (I think) on which your formerly owned coins are used now for market making activities.
BTC 5,000 were sent to this address: https://blockchain.info/address/1CJBqJ3MwUVVNsqXpJx8Aecc3PWxSWPmUc BTC 31k received from exchange-ishly looking inputs, with first test of BTC 1 sent on 16 Dec 2013. There are lots of addresses (as you dig deeper) that have transaction of BTC 1 made on 16 Dec 2013, there are also transactions made prior to this date that have ALWAYS a test transaction of BTC 1.
Further investigation of outputs will lead you to addresses that had BTC 16k, 70k or more (some of these wallets are being used right now) - these were / are the new exchange's hot wallets (I think) on which your formerly owned coins are used now for market making activities.
Guys,
Please read this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494146.0;all
Your coins stored at Gox left Gox between 18 December 2013 and 6 January 2014 - probably on 22 December 2013
Part of these coins were sent on more or less 6 January 2014 to be sold on a very specific bitcoin exchange (there is one exchange that in certain aspect differs from the other exchanges and these coins could be sold only there).
___________________________________________________________
Please make blockchain analysis on these dates:
- 22 Dec 2013 (+/- 1 day) coins leaving Gox (sending addresses will be Gox addresses)
- 6 Jan 2014 (+/- 1 day) coins arriving at another (unnamed yet) exchange (receiving addresses will be another exchange addresses) - given the jurisdiction this exchange should store documentation.
I need someone to identify / find large transactions on these days to substantiate how Karpeles' friends routed your coins to help bring in criminal charges.
Please read this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=494146.0;all
Your coins stored at Gox left Gox between 18 December 2013 and 6 January 2014 - probably on 22 December 2013
Part of these coins were sent on more or less 6 January 2014 to be sold on a very specific bitcoin exchange (there is one exchange that in certain aspect differs from the other exchanges and these coins could be sold only there).
___________________________________________________________
Please make blockchain analysis on these dates:
- 22 Dec 2013 (+/- 1 day) coins leaving Gox (sending addresses will be Gox addresses)
- 6 Jan 2014 (+/- 1 day) coins arriving at another (unnamed yet) exchange (receiving addresses will be another exchange addresses) - given the jurisdiction this exchange should store documentation.
I need someone to identify / find large transactions on these days to substantiate how Karpeles' friends routed your coins to help bring in criminal charges.
Drugs? Nono, that is not nice.
Send him (and possibly some of his colleagues) a few weeks to Fuchu Prison until the cold storage is back or a very credible explanation is given where the coins went
http://www.gaijinriders.com/showthread.php?2241-Japan-Prisons-Hope-none-every-experience-it
Send him (and possibly some of his colleagues) a few weeks to Fuchu Prison until the cold storage is back or a very credible explanation is given where the coins went
http://www.gaijinriders.com/showthread.php?2241-Japan-Prisons-Hope-none-every-experience-it
hahahahahaaaa the name says it all
Drugs? Nono, that is not nice.
Send him (and possibly some of his colleagues) a few weeks to Fuchu Prison until the cold storage is back or a very credible explanation is given where the coins went
http://www.gaijinriders.com/showthread.php?2241-Japan-Prisons-Hope-none-every-experience-it
Send him (and possibly some of his colleagues) a few weeks to Fuchu Prison until the cold storage is back or a very credible explanation is given where the coins went
http://www.gaijinriders.com/showthread.php?2241-Japan-Prisons-Hope-none-every-experience-it
So who stole $300,000,0000 USD worth of Bitcoins and got away with it?
PRIME SUSPECTS:
All Mt. Gox staff:
Mark Karpeles
Gay Butchery Gonzales
+ the rest
ROUND EM UP, LIE DETECTOR THEM
PRIME SUSPECTS:
All Mt. Gox staff:
Mark Karpeles
Gay Butchery Gonzales
+ the rest
ROUND EM UP, LIE DETECTOR THEM
There is a very good reason why "lie detectors", more correctly known as a polygraph, are not admissable evidence. They do not reliably indicate truth, they just measure changes in heart rate, breathing, and galvanic skin response. Anyone with imagination and a modicum of self control can make the operator believe/disbelieve anything they want to. A sociopath will always "beat" a lie detector. So will a practitioner or meditation, yoga, or anything else where iron self discipline is a component.
Now sodium amytal/pentothal and a competent psychologist....
what do you think of this ?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zc54t/evidence_that_karpeles_still_has_the_coins/cfsdexm
I'm unfamiliar with reddit, so I got confused both at the facts of the matter as well as who was saying what to whom.
what do you think of this ?
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zc54t/evidence_that_karpeles_still_has_the_coins/cfsdexm
... to trace where the GOX coins are. They already compiled a nice list of addresses and institutions. The institutions have the ID's of the users.
http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~smeiklejohn/files/imc13.pdf
Given the size of these thefts, it shouldn't be hard to start placing some names to thefts. We need Gox to release some internal transaction info or at least contract with these folks to find who has it.
My bet is the US government has already been working with this group in tracing silk road transactions, perhaps sheep marketplace as well.
Never rest until these folks are caught, nor allow bitcoin to grow without showing there is some self policing going on, or deep regulations.
"With these thefts, our ability to track the stolen money provides evidence that even the most motivated Bitcoin users (i.e., crimi-
nals) are engaging in idioms of use that allow us to erode their anonymity. While one might argue that thieves could easily thwart
our analysis, as Heuristic 2 is admittedly not robust in the face of adversarial behavior, our observation is that — at least at present —
none of the criminals we studied seem to have taken such precautions. We further argue that the fairly direct flow of bitcoins from
the point of theft to the deposit with an exchange provides some evidence that using exchanges to cash out at scale is inevitable, and
thus that — again, at present — Bitcoin does not provide a particularly easy or effective way to transact large volumes of illicitly-
obtained money."
http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~smeiklejohn/files/imc13.pdf
Given the size of these thefts, it shouldn't be hard to start placing some names to thefts. We need Gox to release some internal transaction info or at least contract with these folks to find who has it.
My bet is the US government has already been working with this group in tracing silk road transactions, perhaps sheep marketplace as well.
Never rest until these folks are caught, nor allow bitcoin to grow without showing there is some self policing going on, or deep regulations.
"With these thefts, our ability to track the stolen money provides evidence that even the most motivated Bitcoin users (i.e., crimi-
nals) are engaging in idioms of use that allow us to erode their anonymity. While one might argue that thieves could easily thwart
our analysis, as Heuristic 2 is admittedly not robust in the face of adversarial behavior, our observation is that — at least at present —
none of the criminals we studied seem to have taken such precautions. We further argue that the fairly direct flow of bitcoins from
the point of theft to the deposit with an exchange provides some evidence that using exchanges to cash out at scale is inevitable, and
thus that — again, at present — Bitcoin does not provide a particularly easy or effective way to transact large volumes of illicitly-
obtained money."
He probably hast quite a good portion of the coins that were 'allegedly' lost.
I just did random clicking from one of the addresses to find one that still has 50k BTC on it.
I just did random clicking from one of the addresses to find one that still has 50k BTC on it.
Hi,
Firstable, sorry for my english, I'm french.
I "had" 13 bitcoins on my account mtgox (8 i bought on the site, 4 i tranfered to mtgox from another plateform)
I "had" 1700 euros on my account mtgox (and 400 more in transaction, from gox to my french bank account, tranfert with statut confirmed but not sent, in process they said...)
What can I do? What should I do?
If you have bitoin and money in mtgox, there are meant to have the same destiny or is it possible to get back your money, in a different way?
In the blockchain, I see 4 transactions (which match the 4 deposit i made in mtogox). Is it useful? What can i do about it?
Thank you for you help and hope precious advices.
Magali
Firstable, sorry for my english, I'm french.
I "had" 13 bitcoins on my account mtgox (8 i bought on the site, 4 i tranfered to mtgox from another plateform)
I "had" 1700 euros on my account mtgox (and 400 more in transaction, from gox to my french bank account, tranfert with statut confirmed but not sent, in process they said...)
What can I do? What should I do?
If you have bitoin and money in mtgox, there are meant to have the same destiny or is it possible to get back your money, in a different way?
In the blockchain, I see 4 transactions (which match the 4 deposit i made in mtogox). Is it useful? What can i do about it?
Thank you for you help and hope precious advices.
Magali
777 can mean jackpot or access permission chmod.
He says he has 'identified the problem' and is 'working on it'
What else could that mean other than - they screwed up their wallets/keys and are trying to fix it now.
thelema93 I am not calling you names but I do advise you to get used to the fact that the odds are strongly stacked against those (including myself) owed money by Gox.
I think that the forensic analysis of the blockchain going on is extremely important and I take my hat off to those involved. I want to know just like everyone else where the btc went. But you must understand that even if every last satoshi is accounted for this does not mean everything will be OK.
In any case, now that the legal machine is whirring into action it will be a minimum of several months before complete closure. So if you have a job, a family, a life to get on with... then make sure you carry on, because this is going to take time to unwind.
following
He says he has 'identified the problem' and is 'working on it'
What else could that mean other than - they screwed up their wallets/keys and are trying to fix it now.
What else could that mean other than - they screwed up their wallets/keys and are trying to fix it now.
Maybe, just maybe; *gasp*; he could be lying!
I really would ignore anything Mark tells you.
SO WHY CAN'T I CLAIM THAT BACK IN COURT?[/b]
Your unregulated electronic funny munny has no power here
OK I JUST TRACED BITCOINS I SENT TO GOX ON:
2014-02-03 06:29:00
SENT 5 BTC TO Mt.GOX ADDRESS: 1CdiTM1BCifFB5KpW8L5t51PUL8NW7vW9E
TRANSACTION: https://blockchain.info/address/1CdiTM1BCifFB5KpW8L5t51PUL8NW7vW9E
NEXT my 5 BTC get's sent to: 1GvYWVRPyq2mQFf8w64DZtyX4ekK5taa1d
https://blockchain.info/address/1GvYWVRPyq2mQFf8w64DZtyX4ekK5taa1d
NEXT my 5 BTC get's sent to: 1NRUPGCqCX56DvVptV2dvNPS2UwZMsUXvA
https://blockchain.info/address/1NRUPGCqCX56DvVptV2dvNPS2UwZMsUXvA
AND IT IS STILL THERE!
SO WHY CAN'T I CLAIM THAT BACK IN COURT?
It hasn't been stolen, it is just sitting in some dormant wallet of Gox's.
2014-02-03 06:29:00
SENT 5 BTC TO Mt.GOX ADDRESS: 1CdiTM1BCifFB5KpW8L5t51PUL8NW7vW9E
TRANSACTION: https://blockchain.info/address/1CdiTM1BCifFB5KpW8L5t51PUL8NW7vW9E
NEXT my 5 BTC get's sent to: 1GvYWVRPyq2mQFf8w64DZtyX4ekK5taa1d
https://blockchain.info/address/1GvYWVRPyq2mQFf8w64DZtyX4ekK5taa1d
NEXT my 5 BTC get's sent to: 1NRUPGCqCX56DvVptV2dvNPS2UwZMsUXvA
https://blockchain.info/address/1NRUPGCqCX56DvVptV2dvNPS2UwZMsUXvA
AND IT IS STILL THERE!
SO WHY CAN'T I CLAIM THAT BACK IN COURT?
It hasn't been stolen, it is just sitting in some dormant wallet of Gox's.
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