Topic: [Group Buy#1] Avalon ASICs CHIPS! Using JohnK as escrow! FINISHED! - page 17. (Read 150651 times)

I agree with were you're coming from, I'm just kind of upset with how Raging is acting...

On a similar note, if anyone wants to give to people who did the bookkeeping while refunds were being sorted, we can just post tip addresses after refunds are distributed and you can give whatever you feel is fair.

I do not think Raging should have his chip money withheld without his permission.  Raging the chip buy operator and Raging the chip buyer are discrete entities in my mind.

We are all biased here because we stand to profit from taking his chip money.

What I want is for Raging to give John permission to distribute that money, or send in more money or whatever. Otherwise he will receive a negative trust rating (from me at least) for not covering the losses he was responsible for. He should not be penalized out of his chip buy if he refuses to pay. That money should be protected.

Honestly Raging, prodigits7 didn't take the chips. You did,  because you wanted to use them to help you make money on your NEO-ASICs thing. This was dishonest, since they did not belong to you, and since you did not have permission to do it.

Asking you to pay for the chips that you took from the group to (try to) use for your own personal gain is not unreasonable.

I hope you agree.

the total to john includes the tips I believe.

36905473f73a53874f81da80629be982ec269116e59c0ca723032f94e9aae149 has 11.99906528 BTC
e03868aa432c035196bd7476551ac5fafec8b7d5915b256c7385d778c5fa0528 has 0.01025 BTC

combined, this is more than 1.5% to John k. so I assume this includes tips.

There were tips sent to the payment address for John K.  When I have a moment I'll capture those that were recorded and see if they match up to the extra total.

I'm not sure what you mean by "someone else to come forward"

I don't think it makes or breaks anyone in here getting 0.00006 extra btc per chip.

I'm fine to divide it up to the other guys in this group who made tracking sheets to facilitate the refund.

Having too much is better than not having enough.  I would be OK with dividing that number up, or holding the additional ~0.6btc for a period of time after the refund for someone else to come forward etc.

Fortunately it's pretty close.

Well not exactly, that only works in a perfect world

we have

790.51250333

782.1 from the refund.
7.821 set aside that was to be raging's fee.
0.59150333 remaining in this group buy's btc address.

there are a lot of addresses in the group buy escrow address and john k. can explain them
John. K's amount was already taken out, so regardless of what it "should be" it is 790.51250333 or 0.07905125033 per share unless some of those mystery addresses are under john. k's control, in which case it is greater.

Of course, I think Raging should pay for those chips... in which case the share per person would be 0.07930502641 after subtracting 32 shares from raging.

Your math checks out.  Please double check I got it right on the chip count sheet. 

Also, I fully agree that second party sales prices will not and should not be considered.

Since for whatever reason (despite voicing my discontent at the time) this group buy used "chips per bitcoin" instead of a fixed price of "bitcoins per chip" (chips aren't divisible, bitcoins are...) as the dividing metric, I calculate that the original cost was 0.08016525 BTC per chip.  This included escrow fees at 1.5% to JohnK, chip shipping costs from Avalon, ragin's 1%, but NOT redistribution shipping from ragin to buyers as that was to be paid individually to ragin at a later date.

782.1 BTC * 1.025 (1 percent for ragingazn628 and 1.5 percent for johnk ) = 801.6525 for one order

801.6525 / 10000 = 0.08016525 per chip

Ragin is (rightfully) forfeiting his escrow fee of 1%

John K's escrow fee is therefore 782.1 * 0.015 = 11.7315 BTC

Ragin's fee (returned to the group is) 782.1 * 0.01 = 7.821 BTC

Refund available is therefore 782.1 (chips plus shipping) +  7.821 (Ragin's share) = 789.921 BTC available for refund

Math check: 801.6525 (collected) - 11.7315 (JohnK's fee) = 789.921 (check)

(no sample chips accounted for in the calculation; at time of purchase this wasn't indicated as part of the deal...)

Refund issued per chip is thusly 789.921 / 10000 = 0.0789921 BTC per chip

This should be issued to all present documented chip holders in the group.  Cost variance from after the fact sales amongst group members should not be accounted for as the sale constitutes a transfer of risk, and would make the refund entirely too complicated to process.

Here's the chip tracking sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApT7WUJuJCwMdEhFX2UxbF9Nd0xydmhnUUJiZVBLVlE#gid=0

Here's the refund request sheet:

PS: Thanks for muddying up the waters again.  These are the only two forms that should be relied on.  You have PM'd people to fill out YET ANOTHER form without reading through the posts.  Jeez man.  We got it from here.

All, please ignore RagingAzn's form.  redphlegm has already had people fill out his sheet and to try and coordinate another form will just confuse the whole process, and potentially leave someone out who has already filled out a form and may not be watching this thread closely.  Use this form only:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Db9Xx8NYvjnq-Pm7MmuVgWauTP1qSaFRyemI_sa5DkA/viewform

What's the main form to fill out then?

you don't understand. We're mad because WE DID THIS ALREADY. You didn't deserve to do what you pleased with those chips and we aren't comping them to you for work in organizing refunds or whatever because people in the thread did this already! I don't trust you with funds/ payment addresses so I'm leaving it to john k.

As for the 32 chips, this may sound small but to big investors like me it does matter, plus I'll take a bit of solace knowing you don't come out positive.

Ragingazn, the best thing you can do is admit you screwed up, forfeit the 32 chips you gave to prodigits (I'll give up asking for the 1.5% fee for escrow). and walk away like you have done 90% of the time this group buy was going on.

We already did this.  I've created a spreadsheet based on trades to document chip ownership and redphlegm made a form to fill out for return addresses.  This is kind of why we are upset with you; we had to jump in and get shit moving when you decided it wasn't worth your time.  We are not bickering with each other.  I think we are all upset with how you've handled things and are upset with you in particular.

Alright instead of bickering with each other, let's reorganize everything so people can get their money back faster.

My spreadsheet for KnCMiner proved quite effective with refunding people. So I will start the same. JohnK will be given permission to edit the spreadsheet once he gets the refund from Avalon back. This is because refunds will go to JohnK and he will be the one redistributing the funds.

Please use this form to get the refund process started for John.K when he gets back.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1k0Yn9Sc7pOlzI5DgsglLdqfaijLkVihAXUDgM4XpCwo/viewform

Spreading his 32 chips out would net every chip owner 0.0002565288 / chip.

If we leave it be (considering those chips were gratis), it won't affect me very much.  It just irks the dogshit out of me that Raging can show up NOW, when it's time to get the money back.  I was also very suspicious when he started talking about sample chips and allocating them how he wanted, instead of getting feedback from the group, as evidenced by my recent quotes.  So nebiz, I'm not looking for "someone" to take a bite out of, I am particularly pissed off at Raging for playing loose with the gratis chips, and I was upset about it when it happened.  I'm also kind of peeved that he can find time to be active in this thread when his money is threatened, but was always so absent prior to this.

I just want out of this clusterfuck, as fast as possible.

John K, what do you need to facilitate the starting of refunds?  I'm more than willing to assist with some legwork to get things moving.

Can we drop the polarizing language? We don't need to say raging stole the chips. We don't know that. What we know is that raging was responsible for the loss of 32 chips of group property.

I hate to even bother with such a trifling sum of money, especially since emotions are clearly so high, but I do think that raging should be financially responsible for those chips. If he had distributed them with the group's permission he would not be.

Raging: please understand that we didn't trust prodigits7. You did. And you unilaterally (and against the group's wishes) acted to give the chips to him. You alone are responsible for their loss, and therefore for remunerating their fair value to the group.

(Proof that the group wanted the chips to go to BKKCoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=177994.1060)

What exactly is the problem here? he stole 32 chips from us, if you just deduct it from his share and add it to the pot, then everyone (including raging) gets a discount equivalent their stake in the sample chips.

I hate to defend anyone in this thread because you are all a bunch of wolves out looking for something to take a bite out of.

In fact, I was going to defend someone, but I am not going to after that sentence. Get over it. You know the math, you know JohnK doesn't care what you say, he'll refund the escrow per the original terms.

Stop wasting your time, people.

I agree that those chips were group property, and raging does not deny that he appropriated them. Payment for those chips seems very reasonable, especially given how timely they were.