Pages:
Author

Topic: [Guide] Dogie's Comprehensive Manufacturer Trustworthiness Guide [1st Feb 2016] - page 44. (Read 131506 times)

legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
I think you should look into adding biostar to the list. They hinted in the thread about their btc-24gh that they may be working on more btc stuff. So far they have produced a bitcoin motherboard for gpu rigs and 1 asic. I think we will be seeing more from them in the future. Extra exposure to what they already have may help shift things into a higher gear.

I guess so... They're so far behind at the moment :/ Fine.
sr. member
Activity: 362
Merit: 250
I think you should look into adding biostar to the list. They hinted in the thread about their btc-24gh that they may be working on more btc stuff. So far they have produced a bitcoin motherboard for gpu rigs and 1 asic. I think we will be seeing more from them in the future. Extra exposure to what they already have may help shift things into a higher gear.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
Avalon is still selling directly: https://ehash.com/

Hence they're going back on the list. They stopped for several months.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
Top work Dogie, hats off to you. I was just wondering why Avalon was not included. They produce their own chips, make a quality product and ship fast from in hand stock. I ordered a 290 module and had it in 6 days and I'm in Australia. Thats impressive.

Avalon will go back on the list now they're active again - I thought they'd stopped direct selling entirely.

Dogie, do u have any infomation about XBTec 1250?

They're too new to be added yet, they need to start delivering stuff. They have contacted me about doing a review but not seen anything yet.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
Dogie shouldn't be worrying or even expect to predict on how scammers might manipulate his "metrics", especially if he is hoping to somehow detect beforehand a scamming company.
It is a pointless effort to try to counter-scheme scammers, go straight to the outcome of scams: are they delivering or not? Very simple.

Learn the lessons of history, or don't learn at all.
full member
Activity: 121
Merit: 100
Dogie, do u have any infomation about XBTec 1250?
member
Activity: 66
Merit: 10
“Create Your Decentralized Life”
Top work Dogie, hats off to you. I was just wondering why Avalon was not included. They produce their own chips, make a quality product and ship fast from in hand stock. I ordered a 290 module and had it in 6 days and I'm in Australia. Thats impressive.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
I'm actually not familiar with previous system so I'm not comparing and there's no implication of "fudging" by you.  not sure why you go there...  you're simply getting feedback that the criteria doesn't make sense for a "fit-all" and that there are different ways to more accurately represent/measure what you are trying to achieve with "uses own chips" or the whole "age" concept.
I'm pointing out that the "uses own chips" criteria is problematic and doesn't make sense to apply to companies that will not make their own chips ever.  it's like trying to compare two orange trees from two different orchards and having an apple tree in the mix.  the apple tree will always get 1/10 for it's "orange production."


These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company...  

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.
This makes no sense either.  Your other criterias should handle your woofing rigs scenario.  If they don't then your system is even more flawed than I thought.
Look, you've been testy before when provided feedback that's designed to help you become better.  Feedback isn't an attack on you, it's provided to help you.
You can do whatever you want, but your manufacturer ratings are not well thought out.


The old system was criticised because it relied too much on me deciding exactly how you're asking me to... between the lines... "yes they've delivered but....", "yes its on time but....", "yes 95% of people have no problems but there are a few refund problems"....

This system specifically removes that - I'm not fudging any of it at all. Its an open, numerical system which both the companies and the public can see specifically what is controlling the ratings of, and what those ratings mean.

Feedback isnt feedback when the feedback is "it doesn't work" and ends like that. The solution you're implying but not stating is the old system, which doesn't work for the above reasons. This is the best of what we have. Feel free to propose otherwise.

hah, my analogy was clearer: it is like penalizing Dell or Compaq for not producing their own CPUs.

I think Dogie is approaching this in a different way, from the paranoid perspective of how harder would be for a scammer to game his "system".
So basically the more money a company invests (hence the emphasis on "size"), he thinks it is less likely that they will be scammers.
And he also considers that if a company produces own chips, there are serious amount of money involved, therefore it is not likely for scammers to plan a quick con by actually having invested an absurd amount of money producing chips.
But producing or not producing own chips is irrelevant, OEM investments are not negligible. They have to buy the chips, produce the pcbs, assemble them, test them, and ship them.
So the entry barrier is still quite high there. Penalizing for not producing their own chips is ridiculous.

The key criterias that actually matters is: consumer satisfaction, reliability, consistency on their quality, consumer support and breaking promises. And "age" is important especially if they are delivering excellence: consistency over time is extremely hard to keep unless your internal processes are efficient and streamlined.
Amateurs' quality will fluctuate and be erratic (aka. Avalon). Professionals will attempt to apply Six Sigma.

Dogie shouldn't be worrying or even expect to predict on how scammers might manipulate his "metrics", especially if he is hoping to somehow detect beforehand a scamming company.
It is a pointless effort to try to counter-scheme scammers, go straight to the outcome of scams: are they delivering or not? Very simple.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 509
BTCgarden don't use their own chips, so you can't make that up. They also don't have very minor hardware issues, they have pretty considerable DOA issues which they're refusing to acknowledge or address. My review unit for example, was half dead, and another reviewer's totally dead. Their support didn't attempt to fix it (replied one email from 6) or replace the components.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "utilises a mix of own and other companies' chips" but btcgarden had developed/produced their own chip last year.

And even though you two may have had a bad experience it doesn't mean the majority have. I've seen no complaints about btcgarden on this forum or the chinese forums. If they really had an issue with DOA and not attempting to fix it then we would know about it like with CT/HF/BA. Every time I've sent them an email it was either responded to within a few hours or no longer than a day.

Quote
Don't start on avalon, everyone flames regardless of what I do with that company. At the moment they are excluded because they're not active. SB are the closest you'll get to Avlaon.

I still think you should include them because they have shipped a ton of miners and their 28nm chip should arrive any day now.
donator
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1060
between a rock and a block!
I'm actually not familiar with previous system so I'm not comparing and there's no implication of "fudging" by you.  not sure why you go there...  you're simply getting feedback that the criteria doesn't make sense for a "fit-all" and that there are different ways to more accurately represent/measure what you are trying to achieve with "uses own chips" or the whole "age" concept.
I'm pointing out that the "uses own chips" criteria is problematic and doesn't make sense to apply to companies that will not make their own chips ever.  it's like trying to compare two orange trees from two different orchards and having an apple tree in the mix.  the apple tree will always get 1/10 for it's "orange production."


These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company... 

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.
This makes no sense either.  Your other criterias should handle your woofing rigs scenario.  If they don't then your system is even more flawed than I thought.
Look, you've been testy before when provided feedback that's designed to help you become better.  Feedback isn't an attack on you, it's provided to help you.
You can do whatever you want, but your manufacturer ratings are not well thought out.


The old system was criticised because it relied too much on me deciding exactly how you're asking me to... between the lines... "yes they've delivered but....", "yes its on time but....", "yes 95% of people have no problems but there are a few refund problems"....

This system specifically removes that - I'm not fudging any of it at all. Its an open, numerical system which both the companies and the public can see specifically what is controlling the ratings of, and what those ratings mean.

Feedback isnt feedback when the feedback is "it doesn't work" and ends like that. The solution you're implying but not stating is the old system, which doesn't work for the above reasons. This is the best of what we have. Feel free to propose otherwise.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
I think there is an inherent demand to put everything in numbers. Which camera is better? For most people this is the same question as "Which one has more megapixels?".

A summary like this one is very helpful for new users, but it should not give a false sense of security, which too much "numbers" and "ratings" may do.

It's ok to list things like "uses own chips" etc, but after all it boils down to one question: "Safe to buy from this vendor?". Which would be "Yes" for companies that deliver on time (even when they offer preorders) or "No" for companies which do not deliver on time, do not honor refund requests etc...

Of course you put much work in this, but maybe you consider this for the next version of your guide.

+1

You can boil this down to a personal recommendation.

I think there are only 4 to 5 companies that have produced and delivered in a reasonable time frame most are Chinese and one is Israeli. All others have had issues and would warrant NOT doing business with them. Agree that these 'numbers' could be misleading and agree with pure deliver nature and potential compensation of slightly off target or late delivery as the real value of measuring any company providing miners.

For me I would only recommend those without customer issues or issues that were completely RESOLVED. Unfortunately this guide doesn't take seriously enough the threats to customers posed by any number of complaint threads. One can just as easily save yourself the hassle by avoiding any company with a checkered past with regards to shipping or customer service failure which remain unresolved. No need to risk your coins on anything that even has the HINT of shady venture given the other companies are shipping at a reasonable clip.
donator
Activity: 543
Merit: 500
I think there is an inherent demand to put everything in numbers. Which camera is better? For most people this is the same question as "Which one has more megapixels?".

A summary like this one is very helpful for new users, but it should not give a false sense of security, which too much "numbers" and "ratings" may do.

It's ok to list things like "uses own chips" etc, but after all it boils down to one question: "Safe to buy from this vendor?". Which would be "Yes" for companies that deliver on time (even when they offer preorders) or "No" for companies which do not deliver on time, do not honor refund requests etc...

Of course you put much work in this, but maybe you consider this for the next version of your guide.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1090
Learning the troll avoidance button :)
Yo Dogie AM news

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8079787
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.8080017
http://www.bitell.com/t/2026

Not sure if it will affect the ratings but just leaving here

Update

1. Due to the relatively lower interest from individual miners as well as OEM producers, the self mining has re-started from middle of July. We had gain access of cheap electricity and high power capacity. We hope to regain the average hashrate percentage similar to 2013 with this generation of chips.

Oh and I have no regrets about killing the chip arguement above to the moon Grin
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 501
Miner Setup And Reviews. WASP Rep.
These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company... 

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.

Makes no sense. And it seems you don't really understand the business itself.

Feel free to actually argue against the content of what I've said, rather than me saying something.

I for one and others appreciate your efforts dogie......it is beyond my time or scope of expertise

perhaps add an arrow up or down behind some of the classifications to show where they are now but where they might be trending ie 1/10 ^ v -

but wtf do I know again keep up the good work and I for one appreciate the work/links some of these mnfg i've never heard of so any rating is a plus plus

Searing


I think that is a good idea. It will help show how the company is currently going and gives a more up to date rating IMO.
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company... 

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.

Makes no sense. And it seems you don't really understand the business itself.

Feel free to actually argue against the content of what I've said, rather than me saying something.

I for one and others appreciate your efforts dogie......it is beyond my time or scope of expertise

perhaps add an arrow up or down behind some of the classifications to show where they are now but where they might be trending ie 1/10 ^ v -

but wtf do I know again keep up the good work and I for one appreciate the work/links some of these mnfg i've never heard of so any rating is a plus plus

Searing
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company... 

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.

Makes no sense. And it seems you don't really understand the business itself.

Feel free to actually argue against the content of what I've said, rather than me saying something.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1185
dogiecoin.com
These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company... 

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.
This makes no sense either.  Your other criterias should handle your woofing rigs scenario.  If they don't then your system is even more flawed than I thought.
Look, you've been testy before when provided feedback that's designed to help you become better.  Feedback isn't an attack on you, it's provided to help you.
You can do whatever you want, but your manufacturer ratings are not well thought out.


The old system was criticised because it relied too much on me deciding exactly how you're asking me to... between the lines... "yes they've delivered but....", "yes its on time but....", "yes 95% of people have no problems but there are a few refund problems"....

This system specifically removes that - I'm not fudging any of it at all. Its an open, numerical system which both the companies and the public can see specifically what is controlling the ratings of, and what those ratings mean.

Feedback isnt feedback when the feedback is "it doesn't work" and ends like that. The solution you're implying but not stating is the old system, which doesn't work for the above reasons. This is the best of what we have. Feel free to propose otherwise.
donator
Activity: 714
Merit: 510
Preaching the gospel of Satoshi
These ratings don't make sense.  Case and point, ASICMiner is #1, but no longer ships any miners, only chips.  However, you ding a company like RockMiner with 1/10 on using own chips BECAUSE they use ASICMiner chips, your #1 rated company...  

BTW, ASICMiner should be #1, but why ding other companies who use their chips?
this is flawed.

Because ASICMiner has put down $2-5M in money for those chips, not including the time, expertise and investment. Without differentiating between chip designers and OEMS, I could now start "dogie's woofing rigs", buy $2000 of A1's off the 2nd market and be just as trustworthy from that criteria as a company thats invested 1000x as much as me. $2000 would be a small price to pay for a scammer to run with $100,000.

Rockminer haven't invested the same crazy amounts of money in chips, so they can't be rewarded in that criteria. Don't think of it of a ding, think of it of a buff for people investment 7 figure sums in chip design and manufacture.

Makes no sense. And it seems you don't really understand the business itself.
Pages:
Jump to: