[Guide] Surviving the fork, or How to double your bitcoins (or save fiat) - page 8.

Lauda

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Terminated.

Quote from: escrow.ms on August 20, 2015, 07:12:44 AM

If majority of user are against XT why the fuck they want to fork it? Did anyone tried to know total number of users who are against XT??
Someone should start a petition to know reality.
https://www.change.org/en-IN/petition

Well instead of petitioning against XT, we should make one to force the Core developers to increase. If the petition is successful, and they refuse, then there is something wrong with the current way that development is operating.

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 07:19:42 AM

Right now, I'm getting the sense that a lot of the xt types are not that serious. They are just moving in that direction to put pressure on core devs to make a block cap change soon.
I hope I'm right (tho even if they are serious, i still don't think xt will get the miners necessary to fork).

A petition could still prove to be useful.

harrymmmm

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Quote from: escrow.ms on August 20, 2015, 07:12:44 AM

If majority of user are against XT why the fuck they want to fork it? Did anyone tried to know total number of users who are against XT??
Someone should start a petition to know reality.
https://www.change.org/en-IN/petition

Right now, I'm getting the sense that a lot of the xt types are not that serious. They are just moving in that direction to put pressure on core devs to make a block cap change soon.
I hope I'm right (tho even if they are serious, i still don't think xt will get the miners necessary to fork).

kelsey

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on August 20, 2015, 07:04:46 AM

Quote from: S4VV4S on August 20, 2015, 06:55:41 AM

The question is: Where does that leave the average Bitcoiner who is not aware of it or lucky enough to get them coins and attempt to double them?

An average bitcoiner who saw the guide will likely pay 0.1 BTC to get exclusive 0.0001 BTC and will lower the loss by doubling his bitcoins. In the best case scenario he will get his bitcoins saved at the current price and will also get free coins of an altcoin named XT or Bitcoin. Someone may buy those altcoins giving him free money for beer.

not much to gain though if btc and/or the pretender drop at this point in price v USD a significant amount (compared to when u acquired said btc), which is an exceedingly likely scenario imo.

desired_username

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Surviving the split is the question, although the way BIP101 is triggered a split is highly unlikely.

Forks are good. Without them bitcoin cannot evolve.

Edit: the amount of disinformation posted on theymos/blockstream controlled outlets is just staggering.

ajas

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Quote from: tadakaluri on August 20, 2015, 07:00:46 AM

Forks are nothing new in the world of open source software. (“Open source” is software that can be used, and even changed, by anybody. The software supporting Bitcoin is essentially that).

We have to distinguish:
a) a fork of the software
b) a fork of the blockchain

Open-Office and Libre-Office can fork. As long as they agree to use the same document format you can
handle each document with each of the software packages and both software packages can coexist. If they
are going to fork the format specifications as well, all the documents created after the fork can be handled by
only one of them.

If bitcoin-core and bitcoin-xt will fork, they will use different specifications on the block properties. Thus
if the fork happens and if both software packages will continue to exist, there will be a fork of the blockchain
as well.

harrymmmm

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Quote from: ajas on August 20, 2015, 06:58:43 AM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 06:09:43 AM

The question in my mind is: how do you get coins on exactly one chain immediately after the first big block is mined?

All the coins created (and all transactions using these coins) before the fork are valid on both chains.
After the fork the coins created (mined as part of the block reward) will be valid on the respective chain only.
Transactions which use some of the latter coins will be valid on that respective chain only.

To answer your question: you have to get some of the coins of the block reward on the respective chain.

So in your view there is no way to get exclusive coins immediately after the fork? Everyone has to wait 100 blocks.
OP says different, but I'm not following his argument ... yet.

escrow.ms

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If majority of user are against XT why the fuck they want to fork it? Did anyone tried to know total number of users who are against XT??
Someone should start a petition to know reality.
https://www.change.org/en-IN/petition

Come-from-Beyond

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Newbie

Quote from: ajas on August 20, 2015, 06:58:43 AM

To answer your question: you have to get some of the coins of the block reward on the respective chain.

He meant coin maturation period of 120 blocks (or is it 100).

Snail2

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Quote from: pedrog on August 20, 2015, 06:42:58 AM

I understand that, I don't believe it can work because businesses will update their software in time, but if someone neglects to do so, it is possible and it can go bankrupt in a second...

If bitcoinXT wins I'm pretty sure we'll see a couple of "legacy bitcoin" holdouts for a while, and for a short time we might also have a good chance to find some smaller exchanges on both chains. So I'm pretty much optimistic about doubling my BTC holdings Cheesy

. I also expecting to see some bottomed out BTC and inflated altcoin prices as fiat sources can dry out quickly after the first big BTC dumping wave.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 06:58:01 AM

You pointed us at a finney attack description. Which works now.
I'm not getting how that relates to what you described I guess.

Finney attack description hints how to send a transaction that will be included into one blockchain only. It works now but it doesn't give any advantage in our special case.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: S4VV4S on August 20, 2015, 06:55:41 AM

The question is: Where does that leave the average Bitcoiner who is not aware of it or lucky enough to get them coins and attempt to double them?

An average bitcoiner who saw the guide will likely pay 0.1 BTC to get exclusive 0.0001 BTC and will lower the loss by doubling his bitcoins. In the best case scenario he will get his bitcoins saved at the current price and will also get free coins of an altcoin named XT or Bitcoin. Someone may buy those altcoins giving him free money for beer.

tadakaluri

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Forks are nothing new in the world of open source software. (“Open source” is software that can be used, and even changed, by anybody. The software supporting Bitcoin is essentially that). When two rival versions of the software are made available at the same time it is known as a fork. It is, in effect, a way of forcing a “vote” on which version users prefer. If one is adopted by the vast majority of people, then it naturally becomes the “winner” and the default version. That is what we are seeing right now in terms of the software that supports Bitcoin.

ajas

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Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 06:09:43 AM

The question in my mind is: how do you get coins on exactly one chain immediately after the first big block is mined?

All the coins created (and all transactions using these coins) before the fork are valid on both chains.
After the fork the coins created (mined as part of the block reward) will be valid on the respective chain only.
Transactions which use some of the latter coins will be valid on that respective chain only.

To answer your question: you have to get some of the coins of the block reward on the respective chain.

harrymmmm

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on August 20, 2015, 06:51:18 AM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 06:35:58 AM

This attack is possible now tho right?
Why is it easier, more profitable in the forked case?
edit: ahh, because the lower hash rate chain is having slow confirmations?

This attack is useless before the fork, both the blockchains will have the same set of inputs.
Blocks indeed will have slower confirmations. And every miner will be earning more percent-wise.

You pointed us at a finney attack description. Which works now.
I'm not getting how that relates to what you described I guess.

S4VV4S

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on August 20, 2015, 06:46:19 AM

Quote from: S4VV4S on August 20, 2015, 06:22:58 AM

So basically, if I understand correctly, this is a hack that favours the miners.
And obviously, miners would be motivated to make a fork happen.

Am I correct?

What do you mean "hack"? If you are talking about the guide - it's a necessary thing to do for everyone who wants to save as much money as possible. If you are talking about the trick of creation of exclusive coin inputs - yes, it favours the miners because gives them a way to sell 1 BTC for 1000+ BTC.

Well, since I doubt anyone will be selling these newly generated coins or be lucky enough to get his transaction in only one chain,
it is logical to assume that we will see a lot of this hack (or trick if you prefer) happening by miners.

The question is: Where does that leave the average Bitcoiner who is not aware of it or lucky enough to get them coins and attempt to double them?

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: pedrog on August 20, 2015, 06:42:58 AM

I understand that, I don't believe it can work because businesses will update their software in time, but if someone neglects to do so, it is possible and it can go bankrupt in a second...

I would consider a case when exchanges will provide trading of the both currencies. No sane businessman will bet on one horse if he can bet on both for the price of one.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 06:35:58 AM

This attack is possible now tho right?
Why is it easier, more profitable in the forked case?
edit: ahh, because the lower hash rate chain is having slow confirmations?

This attack is useless before the fork, both the blockchains will have the same set of inputs.
Blocks indeed will have slower confirmations. And every miner will be earning more percent-wise.

Come-from-Beyond

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Quote from: S4VV4S on August 20, 2015, 06:22:58 AM

So basically, if I understand correctly, this is a hack that favours the miners.
And obviously, miners would be motivated to make a fork happen.

Am I correct?

What do you mean "hack"? If you are talking about the guide - it's a necessary thing to do for everyone who wants to save as much money as possible. If you are talking about the trick of creation of exclusive coin inputs - yes, it favours the miners because gives them a way to sell 1 BTC for 1000+ BTC.

pedrog

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Quote from: Lauda on August 20, 2015, 06:07:30 AM

Quote from: pedrog on August 20, 2015, 05:21:23 AM

It won't work.

If XT is adopted, XT wins, there's no other chain, or at least there's no other chain with value.

You may find someone that lived in a cave for the past year and scam them using the abandoned chain, but that's not something you'll want to brag about, I think...

It will work. That would be the case of reaching complete consensus with the economic majority.
AFAIK 75% (needed by XT) will cause a noticeable split, and thus this can be achieved. The guide is sound, and should work.

I understand that, I don't believe it can work because businesses will update their software in time, but if someone neglects to do so, it is possible and it can go bankrupt in a second...

harrymmmm

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Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on August 20, 2015, 06:21:18 AM

Quote from: harrymmmm on August 20, 2015, 06:09:43 AM

The question in my mind is: how do you get coins on exactly one chain immediately after the first big block is mined?

You need to generate a lot of low-fee transactions that will be included into 1+ MiB blocks of XT but won't be included into the original Bitcoin. Once you get at least one such transaction confirmed in XT you need to generate a block with a contradicting transaction in Bitcoin. Only pool owners can do such the trick with high reliability. More info is available on http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/4942/what-is-a-finney-attack. Obviously, it's almost impossible to do that right after the first block.

This attack is possible now tho right?
Why is it easier, more profitable in the forked case?
edit: ahh, because the lower hash rate chain is having slow confirmations?

Topic: [Guide] Surviving the fork, or How to double your bitcoins (or save fiat) - page 8. (Read 9931 times)