Topic: Guns - page 13. (Read 22189 times)

Perhaps not quite "however you want". Threats are a form of aggression too, and the use of proportional force to repeal such threats is acceptable. The same way you cannot shoot towards an innocent crowd - even if you don't hit anyone -, you can't drive totally recklessly, threatening other drivers or pedestrians - even if you haven't yet damaged anyone, your behavior can be seen as a threat.
But more important, we should note that in a free society, streets and roads would have owners, who would be free to set their arbitrary rules for the usage of such roads if they want to.

To vampire:
Blasting strong sounds over somebody property is an obvious aggression, as with any so-called "negative externality". Important to remember that the principle of "proportional force" always remains when dealing with any [attempt of] aggression.

And finally, concerning "public obscenity" in a free society, then it really depends on the owner of the place you are. If, for example, you are in a condominium where people are allowed to have sex on the streets during daylight, then well, they are allowed, I think we can safely conclude most places would not allow such things though.

Now, seriously, would it be that difficult to realize what I've just wrote you by yourself? Are you limited in your imagination and deductive reasoning, or you just like to throw here whatever comes up in your mind instantly, without even trying to think for a couple minutes what the answer to your challenges would be? If this was your first contact with libertarianism I could understand it, but I don't think this is the case - or is it? I really think you could answer those things yourself, if you actually wanted to.

The same page is showing a long list of studies that disprove the book. - Whoops. Correlation isn't causation. NYC's crime was falling too. Pull out the numbers yourself and prove to me.


Goes back as far as 1960:

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr/


LOL, so Lousiville has more of a single culture and MORE crime than in NYC. Nuff said? I just "correlated" that guns cause crime.

NYC has embassies of most countries here, how many you got in Louisville? Zero? United Nations, Federal Reserve, etc, etc. That's why we have more cops too.


edit: since I've been to Toronto multiple times, I kinda had a feeling that its more diverse than Louisville.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Toronto#Cultural_diversity

Also there are lot of eastern european slavs in Toronto that were counted as white, a lot of them don't speak English and live in their communities. Same as Brighton Beach in NYC.

edit2: While conceal carry is almost impossible in NYC, NYC has shall issue license for premises only handguns. That's still a lot easier to get a gun than most of the world :-)

I should also point out here that the large difference in public police officers in my city than yours also means that there are about as many actual firearms in NYC as there are in my city, per capita.  They just happen to be primarily in the possession of a privileged warrior class.  So the logic of the book mentioned above remains sound, as the number of legitimate firearms in society increases the rate of violent criminal confrontations declines.  It may not matter exactly in what context those weapons are legitimate. 

And the crime rate in Louisville is marginally higher than in NYC, by abut 4 crimes per 100,000 people or so.

And I was just watching a great episode of Stossel that was all over this topic, and particularly the draconian gun laws in NYC.

You have failed to "prove" any such thing, and can't, since such statistics actually do exist.  The largest & most complete study of gun laws and crime stats ever compiled were published under the short but descriptive title of More Guns, Less Crime by John Lott and includes crime data from every county in the United States over a 29 year span.  There actually is a demonstrateable inverse relationship between the number of privately owned firearms in society and the violent crime rate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime


It could, but is more likely to be related to the fact that Canada is even more of a single culture than even Louisville.  The stats & conclusions presented in the book above may or may not have any direct bearing on Canada, Australia or Britain; but logic would imply that since we have a common cultural background that they probably do.

Well, if you take out the pragmatic arguments, then that just leaves the moral...

My whole reason posting here was to prove to everyone - no statistics exists that proves that guns increase or reduce violence. Let's go again with your statistics. Since your city with CC has higher crime rate than NYC. Guns are a hobby, nothing to do with crime.

edit: Toronto crime rate is lower, but does it have to do with their draconian gun laws in the WHOLE country?

when I was taking courses for my Ky CC license, they went to great lengths to drive home the point that every CC holder is still responsible for every round and where it goes.  All guns laws still applied; for example brandishing (i.e. pulling out the weapon without a legitimate cause, as determined by a jury after the fact) is illegal and even once will get your licesnse revoked forever.  Also, even mentioning that you have a weapon, without showing it, can be construed as a threat; which is why I said what I said in the previous post about my buddy from NYC.  The part about not being able to answer the next question.  Yes, NYC is certainly a bystander rich environment, but the greatest effect on crime that CC licensees have is as a credible threat, not an active combatant.  In another study, that I can't find right now, the results suggested (via serveys of long standing CC licensees) that up to 20 times as many crimes are prevented by the mere exposure of the handgun as have been reported.  Even half that would be a huge gain even for relatively safe NYC, and would have a long term effect (I consider positive) on the criminal subcultures in NYC, and you can't honestly tell me that there is no criminal subculture there.  It wouldn't be hard for NYC to be challenging Toronto's crime stats.

Obviously not comparable.  In order for you to jerk off in from of my family, you must either be on my property (where jerking off is prohibited by the property owner, just as you could prohibit my handgun from your property) or doing so in a public venue, where jerking off is prohibited because it's offensive in public, not because it's banned.  Blasting your music all night can cause real damage to neighbors.  Driving is a privilage, not a right.  Notice none of those activities were mentioned in any amendments to the US Constitution, whereas the right to own and bear (as in carry) a firearm is specificly mentioned.

As far as a firearm in public being offensive, this argument was actually used by Cincinnati at one time.  Cincinnati didn't prohibit open carry per se, but considered openly carrying a firearm (whether loaded or not) to be a crime called "inciting panic".  This went to the Ohio Supreme Court which basicly told the entire state that open carry laws were unconstitutional unless the state permitted 'shall issue' concealed carry licenses.  Ohio is now a CC state, and the 'inciting panic' laws in Cincinnati remain effective.  Basicly the court said that there has to be a legal way an average (and unbadged) adult could excercise their second amendment rights, and if there was no practical way to do this, the laws that prevented it were unconsittutional regardless of their actual intent or original applications.

You can drive however you want, too. But if you damage someone or their property, you will be liable for that. (oh hey, there's a legal term just for this: How handy!)

If I can show damages (most likely therapy bills in the former, and lost productivity at work in the latter) for the other two examples, you'll be liable for that, too.

I assume you understand that NYC is tightly packed that a miss shot would find a target? Most people in NYC don't want guns, they want to smoke pot.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/23/12903602-4-year-old-boy-shot-dead-on-nyc-playground

Sure, there are demographic and cultural differences, but that is an argument in favor of concealed carry licenses in NYC.  Cultural differences cause social tensions, and when the criminal element in a particular person takes advantage of such tensions, the other person(s) have a right to defend themselves regardless of their attacker's hard knock backstory.  In Louisville, such tensions are nearly nonexistant, because there is no distinction between the rights of one group over another; whether that is the badged over the badgeless or one demographic over another.  The carry rates of black men in Louisville are negligblely different than white men, because their reasons for wanting to carry one and rights to do so are identical.  Does it not concern you at all that in NYC an employee of the city has very real rights that you do not share?  Sure they have firearm safety training that you lack, but what says that you cannot get the same degree of training without the job?  I've had many hours of firearm safety training, both during and since my military service.

If you don't mine me jerking off infront of your family, blasting my music all night long, driving my car the way i want - i am fine.

That includes the freedom to carry any weapon so desired for personal defense. Whether a fully-automatic M-16 or a derringer pistol, a holstered/slung weapon is not hurtingdamaging anyone.

IIRC just under $500 for six months; myself & my wife, two cars, both of us over 25 with spotless 5 year records.

http://www.insure.com/car-insurance/most-and-least-expensive-states-2010.html

What's your insurance rate? Mine is standard 100/300 with bodily harm extras - $50/mo

Few factors:

Density:

NYC: 27,243.06/sq mi
Louisville: 1,924/sq mi

NYC is highly packed with a lot of different cultures

NYC has 33% white, 28.6 hispanic, 23% black, 13% asians
Louisville is mostly white - 71.8% white 22% black

True, but that stat includes manslaughter, which is a weird thing to do here because the vast majority of manslaughter charges are related to vehicular deaths with illegal root causes, such as DUI's.  I'll admit up front that we have way too many drunks driving, that's normal in Kentucky, home of bourbon.  Both Jim Beam & Maker's Mark distilleries are within 20 miles of Louisville.  (http://www.visitbardstown.com/tourism/bourbon.html)

This, of course, has zero to do with gun crimes, or even any kind of deliberate violent crime at all, otherwise it would be called murder, not manslaughter.

EDIT:  Ironicly, even dispite the high rate of DUI's in Louisville, my auto insurance is half what it would be in NYC for completely different reasons.  Mostly because almost all of my premium goes to the insurance company to actually protect against risk, whereas almost half of such premiums in NYC goes to the state or city taxes on insurance.  So what New Yorkers could actually save in real life is more than overdone by what government can get out of it.  Happy paying for all those police salaries & pensions citizen?

According to this... http://www.indianaeconomicdigest.net/main.asp?SectionID=31&SubSectionID=135&ArticleID=55793

There are roughly 1600 police & civilian employees in the Louisville PD (2010).  Assumming all were cops, that would make a ratio of about 398 people per officer in Louisville, Kentucky. (higher if I use Wikipedia's population numbers instead of the data provided by yourself)  Big difference in just the public salaries for NYC to maintain those kind of numbers.  You may think that it is worth it, but I don't.

11%. But you have 22% higher chance to be killed in your town :-)

Duh, sorry.  I looked at those numbers wrong.  15% then?