► ► ►HashFast Endorsement - page 10.

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Vagnavs on August 18, 2013, 02:07:41 PM

how about BTC with escrow? Why not offer that. Good for the community and buyer

They probably haven't thought of that, those techy types -- head in the clouds, so scattered when it comes to money. I think it's a great idea. Cypherdoc, please don't forget to thank the gentleman.

Vagnavs

legendary

Activity: 1121

Merit: 1003

how about BTC with escrow? Why not offer that. Good for the community and buyer

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 01:56:46 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 12:04:36 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 10:31:34 AM

...
the only counterpoint i'd make is that HF, by only accepting BTC, has demonstrated a restraint to NOT bring in as much money via pre-orders as the other companies seem not to be able to resist by using cc/pp. they also do want to help the BTC economy by doing it this way. it allows BTC to circulate and change hands to buy real products, not just Alpaca socks.
...

This argument is absurd on its face. The BTC will be immediately cashed out to fiat, to pay for expenses, development & production.
If that's "circulation," simply cash out your BTC to credit card yourself, then pay with your credit card.
It makes no difference to the bitcoin economy who cashes out bitcoins, you or HashFast.
Cypherdoc, if you're going to spin, step up your game.

i think this is where your understanding of economics fails miserably:

you're using the term "cashing out" by the buyer or HF when someone buys a BJ as some sort of negative for the Bitcoin economy. you think that it hurts the Bitcoin economy as if that buyer is "giving up" on Bitcoin in general.

nothing is further from the truth. what's really happening is that BTC is now being allowed to circulate and create positive effects. you're completely forgetting that there is someone else on the other end of that transaction who "wants" those BTC's, either the cc company or HF, thus creating an offsetting positive for the Bitcoin economy.

You're trying to spin yet again. I merely pointed out that there is no difference who cashes out, the buyer or HashFast, as far as bitcoin economy is concerned.

Quote

someone always has to hold those BTC; they don't disappear. whoever is holding them at a given time are typically those who "want" to hold them b/c they are bullish on Bitcoin.

Cyperdoc, i'm beginning to feel guilty for assuming malice on your part -- you obviously think that money velocity is increased by simply exchanging one currency for another, as many times as needed.
Let me help you:
If you think that cashing out BTC into dollars increases BTC velocity, or that *buying BTC with dollars* increases BTC velocity, do this:

1. Buy BTC with dollars from yourself, then sell it to yourself for the same amount.
2. You're an honest guy, you probably won't cheat yourself, so your risks are minimal.
3. ? ? ?
4. Velocity!!!

would you please stop the strawman arguments?

i keep talking about what is really going on here by HF having a BTC-only policy. that policy IS helping the Bitcoin economy.

otoh, you keep using this strawman argument of buying and selling to yourself as some sort of evidence that they aren't. of course, the latter doesn't improve the Bitcoin economy. but that is not what HF is doing, is it?

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 01:49:49 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 01:43:36 PM

If there is no difference between the two scenarios, why not let buyers cash out some coin, and buy with their CCs? The buyers will be happier, while you admit that there is no difference from the BTC economic perspective.

*I can point out that by cashing out BTC, HashFast is not increasing the BTC velocity, it is increasing *the dollar velocity*, but i'm a nice guy

i just told you why; HF "wants" those BTC b/c either:

a. they think they'll appreciate in value

They're taking out a risk-free loan that they don't need for funding development & production? They're *investing my BTC?!* If bitcoin price plummets, they're going to ask for MOAR money?
Haven't we been through this already?

Quote

b. they think it's easier and more direct for the buyer instead of making them go thru an intermediate step of a cc company

Then offer direct BTC payment as an option. Along with CC. Best of both worlds?

Quote

c. they want to avoid chargeback volatility so as to get a better idea of true demand for their product

You mean to shield themselves from people like you? Check. Unfortunately, other ASIC suppliers are accepting CC. The ones that you duped. Good going.

Quote

d. they want to help build the Bitcoin economy by encouraging BTC velocity thru the system

Already answered that one. See the rest of my posts re: velocity.

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 12:04:36 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 10:31:34 AM

...
the only counterpoint i'd make is that HF, by only accepting BTC, has demonstrated a restraint to NOT bring in as much money via pre-orders as the other companies seem not to be able to resist by using cc/pp. they also do want to help the BTC economy by doing it this way. it allows BTC to circulate and change hands to buy real products, not just Alpaca socks.
...

This argument is absurd on its face. The BTC will be immediately cashed out to fiat, to pay for expenses, development & production.
If that's "circulation," simply cash out your BTC to credit card yourself, then pay with your credit card.
It makes no difference to the bitcoin economy who cashes out bitcoins, you or HashFast.
Cypherdoc, if you're going to spin, step up your game.

i think this is where your understanding of economics fails miserably:

you're using the term "cashing out" by the buyer or HF when someone buys a BJ as some sort of negative for the Bitcoin economy. you think that it hurts the Bitcoin economy as if that buyer is "giving up" on Bitcoin in general.

nothing is further from the truth. what's really happening is that BTC is now being allowed to circulate and create positive effects. you're completely forgetting that there is someone else on the other end of that transaction who "wants" those BTC's, either the cc company or HF, thus creating an offsetting positive for the Bitcoin economy.

You're trying to spin yet again. I merely pointed out that there is no difference who cashes out, the buyer or HashFast, as far as bitcoin economy is concerned.

Quote

someone always has to hold those BTC; they don't disappear. whoever is holding them at a given time are typically those who "want" to hold them b/c they are bullish on Bitcoin.

Cyperdoc, i'm beginning to feel guilty for assuming malice on your part -- you obviously think that money velocity is increased by simply exchanging one currency for another, as many times as needed.
Let me help you:
If you think that cashing out BTC into dollars increases BTC velocity, or that *buying BTC with dollars* increases BTC velocity, do this:

1. Buy BTC with dollars from yourself, then sell it to yourself for the same amount.
2. You're an honest guy, you probably won't cheat yourself, so your risks are minimal.
3. ? ? ?
4. Velocity!!!

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 01:43:36 PM

If there is no difference between the two scenarios, why not let buyers cash out some coin, and buy with their CCs? The buyers will be happier, while you admit that there is no difference from the BTC economic perspective.

*I can point out that by cashing out BTC, HashFast is not increasing the BTC velocity, it is increasing *the dollar velocity*, but i'm a nice guy

i just told you why; HF "wants" those BTC b/c either:

a. they think they'll appreciate in value
b. they think it's easier and more direct for the buyer instead of making them go thru an intermediate step of a cc company
c. they want to avoid chargeback volatility so as to get a better idea of true demand for their product
d. they want to help build the Bitcoin economy by encouraging BTC velocity thru the system

cypherdoc

legendary

Activity: 1764

Merit: 1002

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 12:04:36 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 10:31:34 AM

...
the only counterpoint i'd make is that HF, by only accepting BTC, has demonstrated a restraint to NOT bring in as much money via pre-orders as the other companies seem not to be able to resist by using cc/pp. they also do want to help the BTC economy by doing it this way. it allows BTC to circulate and change hands to buy real products, not just Alpaca socks.
...

This argument is absurd on its face. The BTC will be immediately cashed out to fiat, to pay for expenses, development & production.
If that's "circulation," simply cash out your BTC to credit card yourself, then pay with your credit card.
It makes no difference to the bitcoin economy who cashes out bitcoins, you or HashFast.
Cypherdoc, if you're going to spin, step up your game.

i think this is where your understanding of economics fails miserably:

you're using the term "cashing out" by the buyer or HF when someone buys a BJ as some sort of negative for the Bitcoin economy. you think that it hurts the Bitcoin economy as if that buyer is "giving up" on Bitcoin in general.

nothing is further from the truth. what's really happening is that BTC is now being allowed to circulate and create positive effects. you're completely forgetting that there is someone else on the other end of that transaction who "wants" those BTC's, either the cc company or HF, thus creating an offsetting positive for the Bitcoin economy.

someone always has to hold those BTC; they don't disappear. whoever is holding them at a given time are typically those who "want" to hold them b/c they are bullish on Bitcoin.

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 01:29:22 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 01:18:00 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 01:10:39 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 01:06:18 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 12:52:51 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 12:48:47 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 12:40:49 PM

Quote from: crumbs on August 18, 2013, 12:04:36 PM

Quote from: cypherdoc on August 18, 2013, 10:31:34 AM

...
the only counterpoint i'd make is that HF, by only accepting BTC, has demonstrated a restraint to NOT bring in as much money via pre-orders as the other companies seem not to be able to resist by using cc/pp. they also do want to help the BTC economy by doing it this way. it allows BTC to circulate and change hands to buy real products, not just Alpaca socks.
...

This argument is absurd on its face. The BTC will be immediately cashed out to fiat, to pay for expenses, development & production.
If that's "circulation," simply cash out your BTC to credit card yourself, then pay with your credit card.
It makes no difference to the bitcoin economy who cashes out bitcoins, you or HashFast.
Cypherdoc, if you're going to spin, step up your game.

do you even bother to think before you troll?

it doesn't matter if they cash their BTC to USD via their own cc before they buy a BJ or if they use their BTC directly. it still represents an ability to use their BTC hoard to purchase something useful. the BTC is exchanging hands to someone else either way. that's called money velocity.

get it?

Cypherdoc, i'm sure you know quite well that "changing hands" does not constitute velocity.
If it was, all we'd have to do to increase BTC velocity is send each other equal amounts of BTC. I send you 1K BTC, you send me 1K BTC. We got velocity. Rinse & repeat.
Think before posting catty comebacks.

but that's not what's happening here.

buyers are being given a chance to buy real hardware and dis-hoard their BTC for useful purposes.

you're constructing a straw man argument to criticize HF.

What's happening here is BTC being cashed out -- either by buyers, who in turn will fund their CC for a BJ, or HashFast. The end result is exactly the same -- BTC gets cashed out.
Cashing out BTC does not help bitcoin economy, otherwise selling your coin does too.

Want to help bitcoin economy?

1. Sell some bitcoins to yourself.
2. Buy them back from yourself.
3. ? ? ?
4. PROFIT!!!
Basic etiquette & rudimentary logic dictate that acknowledge the fact.

i think there's a screw loose somewhere around here.

buyers who have been holding their BTC are being given a real life chance to exchange them for something of value. those BTC don't just disappear into thin air when being used to buy a BJ whether they use them directly or exchange them for USD's first before buying the BJ.

someone has to now hold those BTC other than the original buyer. thus, they've exchanged hands and you achieve money velocity which helps the Bitcoin economy. this is economics 101.

Please, Cypherdoc, explain to me the difference between these two scenarios:

1. Buyer cashes out his BTC, and funds his credit card purchase of a BJ with the proceeds.
2. Buyer sends BTC to HashFast, who then cashes it out to dollars.

Is there a difference to the bitcoin economy, if so, what is it?

Edit: Thanks for the economics lesson, but try to answer questions directly instead.

i never said there was a difference btwn those 2 scenarios.

i said they both have a net positive effect on the Bitcoin economy by causing BTC to exchange hands, ie, BTC is being used for productive purposes.

this has been facilitated by the HF policy of BTC-only pricing.