Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 33. (Read 8965 times)

No, you cannot redeem Satoshi's numbers. You can just transfer them to your address. Redeeming means destroying. When you redeem a gift card it no longer exists. When you redeem dollars, the liability is decreased in the banking system, dollars are literally destroyed. You, neither have written liability to destroy Satoshi's numbers, nor you would destroy them after giving someone goods, services or labour. So, you're talking stupidity again.

Bitcoin blockchain is the same as banks vault or database. When you want to spend your Bitcoins, the system check from the database/vault/blockchain if you own enough for that transaction and as you do, you are able to make the transaction. Same thing when you transfer euros in digital form from your bank account to my bank account, transaction just gets written in the database. Nothing else needs to move. Just database gets written. Same thing happens with Bitcoin. New amounts of yours and mine just gets written into the blockchain.

The euros and dollars are not tied to gold anymore so there is nothing valuable what the bank owns you. Only digital bits or some paper representing those same digital bits but in paper. That paper and digital bits are worthless. UNLESS they are written in some database / blockchain which people DO appreciate as a currency.

So, it does not matter if it is digital euros, paper money or bitcoin. It has a value if we the people value it as a currency. If we don't value it as a currency, then it is worthless.

You do not value bitcoin so it is worthless to you. Hundred million people, companies, stock exchanges and ETFs etc do value bitcoin as a currency. And you can't make us decide otherway even if you tried for 100 years. Because in our more educated opinion than yours, the Bitcoin is better currency than euros or dollars. You saying you don't believe it does not matter to anyone.

That's what I also thought at first, but it turns out it's not the case. OP has probably understood that the ledger is decentralized and that you can't change the records by your own will, although I don't hold my breath. What they say, is that bitcoins, as units, don't represent anything and that's why the system is meaningless. It has been repeatedly told them that just because it's a unit-based system only, it doesn't mean it can't be seen as money.

You're the one who keeps spitting the nonsense. I'm willing to exchange food for bitcoins, therefore you can redeem it to me. It's redeemable, Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with this guy.

So, who has the written liability to redeem Satoshi's numbers next to your address and what is the maturity?

So are Bitcoins too.

Numbers on bank accounts are the liability of the banking system, that is, a redeemable record. They are redeemed literally every day for labor, products and services of the borrowers at every loan repayment. Watch the video linked in the OP. Numbers in Satoshi's system are no one's liability. No institution or organization has a liability to redeem that numbers for something. Neither today, nor tomorrow. Never.

I didn't plan on re-visiting this thread... don't feed the troll and all... But it keeps popping up in my "Show new replies to your posts" menu, eventough i had the OP on ignore.
After seeing he was able to draw this debate on for 10 pages, i un-ignored him and read his posts, just to see why people kept biting the bait.

Now, i'm trying to imagine what is going on in OP's mind, and based on many of his posts, i wonder if his mistake is thinking bitcoin relies on a relational database, and satoshi owns said database... Think of it as an anonymous paypal where users pay money to satoshi so he edits a user's record in his database to change the "content" of an "address" (which is a record in the relational database) from (for example) 0 to 1.
This might explain why he keeps telling us that bitcoin is just a number, and that it doesn't exist... If, in his mind, the bitcoin ledger is a mere centralized relational database that can be edited by the owner (and downloaded by the community), many of the things he says make sense....

@OP: if this is the case, the only thing i can say is that the bitcoin ledger is immutable (so nobody can change the ledger), decentralised (so nobody owns is, there is no "master data" either.. It lives on thousands of nodes at the same time, without a central authority interfering) and trustless (you don't need to trust anybody to tell you how much BTC you own). Going into the technical aspects for you seems inprobable, since you don't seem to grasp basic technology, so there's no point in discussing cryptography, network setup, the merits of open source,... but it's not because you don't understand these things that they're not real...

I'm out again... back on ignore

So the numbers on your bank account that refers to banks database IS money for you but Bitcoins on my wallet that refers to Bitcoin database called blockchain somehow ARE NOT money?
Seems unlogical. Have you tried telling anyone face to face about this big revelation of yours that hundred million people, stock exchanges, banks, financial officers, whole governments etc are all wrong and only you realize that? How did anyone respond to your claims?

Sure it's easy. You need a line of code to attach a number to an address. To create a coin - a tangible item or intangible liability, it's not so easy. Your problem is that you lack education in economics so you think that attaching a number to an address means creating a coin. Electronic coin or cash is liability written on digital media. Cash is liability written on paper or metal media. Writing down numbers into a database is not creating coins or electronic cash, like Satoshi said in his whitepaper. That guy wrote nonsense because he is also uneducated in economics.

Yes, you can... here you go. Addr4u7jgt67. I declare that to be my address. ... Addr4u7jgt67->1,000 And now I just attached a number to that address. Of course, I can make, a protocol... "Attaching is allowable only after POW. POW is traveling around the world". Ups... now it's not easy for me to attach a number. But, whatever. It is still a number. It's not a car. It's not an application. It's not money or a coin ( a tangible item or intangible liability). It's literally a number. With or without POW, it doesn't matter. POW doesn't magically transform numbers into gold.

You don't prove ownership because you don't own a digital product, liability or a tangible item. You prove that a specific number was attached to your address. That's it.

Cryptographic signature... I have to google it... " uses public key algorithms to provide data integrity. When you sign data with a digital signature, someone else can verify the signature, and can prove that the data originated from you and was not altered after you signed it."

So, with a cryptographic signature you are just securing the numbers attached. No bit-coins, that is, someone's liabilities to redeem numbers exist in a cryptographic signature. You see, you didn't prove the existence of bit-coins.

I refuted literally everything you said. Even that thing about cryptographic signatures. Are you using Freudian projection? It's like you're describing yourself.


No, no, no and no. You didn't transfer ownership rights of some amount of BTC. You transferred a number. BTC is just Satoshi's trick of renaming the concept of a number to coin. Numbers are neither coins nor there's ownership rights on them. Satoshi didn't invent numbers or patented them. He just uses them to create the illusion of the existence of coins that don't actually exist.

I am not a fraudster so I don't create fake things.


Antique money is a tangible item. Modern money is redeemable record. Satoshi's numbers are neither. Which means they are not money, coins or tokens. They're just numbers. You are free to pay a million dollars for a number to be attached to your address. But you cannot lie that that number is money, coin or bit-coin. Although you can say it's a fake-coin.

Bitcoin mining may be beneficial to the the United states energy independence.
Texas congressman Pete Sessions has made a bold declaration about the impact Bitcoin mining will have not only on his state , but on the entire united states. The Texan congressman, who is a proponent of bitcoin mining, tweeted ob Tuesday that bitcoin mining will be essential in restoring the united states energy independence. Both the admirers and detractors reacted to this statement.

I have met many people like him. They just can't live with it that some people took risk by buying Bitcoin when it was super early and made millions. They are so jealous about that and feel that it is so unfair. This envy and grudge blinds now everything they see about Bitcoin and only chance for them for "not to be mistaken about Bitcoin" left anymore is if it turns out to be total scam, bubble or pyramid scheme. So now they fight with everything they got to try to make Bitcoin seen as a scam.

Just because they do not have normal peoples strength to be wrong sometimes. They somehow think that any mistake is terrible weakness and cannot be shown in anyway. Might have something to do with how they were raised by their parents.

Same thing has been seen in America with Donald Trump supporters. They make that attachment to the one thing so powerfully, that their whole world would collapse if they admit that they were wrong. So only way for them is to just go deeper and deeper into that whole they dig themself.

He will never do that. I can't understand why is he so obsessed to convince all of us that we are wrong and that we are giving away our fiat money for nothing.

Yes, but that won't be necessarily true. For example, you can tell me that you own 1 BTC (the fake number as you say), but if you don't provide me a valid signature which proves that you're the owner of the outputs, then I'll have to keep your word for it. So it's not the same as having a ledger which can be altered by anyone.

It is clear that you don't know anything not only about Bitcoin, but about cryptography in general.

But, that won't make it true, because they won't be able to provide the valid signature.

You're wrong. Learn to admit and move on.

This troll does not seem to understand that everything digital, including money on his bank account, these messages that he writes, this picture I draw on my computer with Paint... and Bitcoin as a digital currency. They are all digital, meaning they are all ones and zeros on the computer network. Nothing more, just numbers. Not even big numbers, just ones and zeros at the very basic level.

The troll says that these ones and zeros are not real and they do not have any value. That is simply incorrect. Ones and zeroes in the meaning of Bitcoin are following rules, open source code and they need to be in the Bitcoin blockchain network to have the value as a Bitcoin. If the troll writes his own numbers on his computer or on a piece of paper, those numbers do not have any value as a Bitcoin because they are not included in the Bitcoin network or blockchain.

So, Bitcoin is not only numbers. It is a network operating on a specific rules and only the exact correct computer code, verified by thousands of computers, gets the status of being Bitcoins. And the prove that Bitcoins have value and they exists? You can buy stuff with it. I for example work for an online store which accepts Bitcoin as a payment. We are not changing goods to nothing or thin air. We are changing goods to digital currency. Ones and zeroes that exists in the Bitcoin blockchain, that are created by using computational power and electricity and that are verified by thousands of computers. So there is no question about if it exists or not.

The troll might have some brain disability to not understand digital stuff. And I do not mean to insult him. Life is not easy enough for him even without any insults with a brain like that so I'm more like sad for him because of how hard life must be for him.

No, you said simply that Bitcoin doesn't exist and that's it. Bunch of gibberish about why it doesn't exist that doesn't make sense to any of us, only to you. You are constantly saying that Bitcoin must represent something in the real world. IT DOES NOT REPRESENT ANYTHING AND IT DOESN'T HAVE TO IN ORDER FOR IT TO HAVE VALUE!

If it's this easy, please do it and show how you did it. Don't worry, it's not spreading misinformation, if it's possible, it's a bug in the system and it's totally your right to exploit it. Also, if it was this easy, someone would surely simply do that (in secret or now); yet somehow I still own my own coins.

The thing that you don't understand and cannot understand without educating yourself about cryptography and signatures: you can't just write another number next to your address.

When you claim that we can't 'show the BTC assigned to our address', it's a strawman argument. That's because we don't prove ownership by 'showing the number of BTC and the corresponding address', but we prove ownership through a cryptographic signature that only the owner can provide.

Except we can. It's called cryptographic signature.

I don't attack you, I'm stating the obvious. You are talking out of your ass and embarassing yourself with your ignorance. Harsh reality, but it is what it is. Some day you might understand; or you will end up dying in your ignorance. It's up to you though; you seem not to want to learn & understand, instead keep hammering on your arguments based on wrong, naive assumptions. I don't keep my hopes up.

What even is buying? Transfer of ownership. I transferred ownership rights of some amount of BTC from my secret key to the seller's secret key, while he shipped me a product. That's the definition of buying.
Again, if you can 'just transfer fake numbers to someone's address', why don't you do it? You keep saying that it's so easily possible, but I'd like to see you do it.

That's wrong though; you have no, zero valid arguments why the 'numbers should be fake'. If they were, what stops you from generating such 'fake numbers' for free, yourself?

Dude, we understand. You're super proud that you understood how the banking system works. However, that doesn't mean every other payment system has to work the same way..
In fact, Bitcoin is more akin to 'antique money' than 'modern money'. Where people had gold coins that they paid with. The value wasn't in something 'backing the coin', some 'liability' or some bank. It was the value of the material, simple as that. Exact same thing with Bitcoin. A gold coin also wasn't 'redeemable' in the sense that a modern day banknote is; but people willingly traded goods for it since they knew it had value. Value due to scarcity and demand, but also through heaps of expended energy to get that shit out of the ground.

If you don't understand why, read more about it and ask specific questions. But this discussion doesn't help you understand and won't convince anyone of your pathetically wrong assumptions and derived wrong claims.

I also start to think it makes no sense to waste any more of my time with you. I tend to join these types of discussions so other users are not misinformed by trolls & can read my objective explanations why the troll is wrong, however I'm confident I've proven it enough by now.

Yes they are nonsensical because they misrepresent my position. I literally never said that bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't touch it or feel it.

I said that bitcoin doesn't exist because I checked the Satoshi's system and proved by empirical observation that neither liabilities (to redeem) nor digital products exist there. But just numbers. You can't touch or feel liabilities and digital products but they still exist. It is just that they don't exist in Satoshi's system. So no coins or bit-coins. Coins are tangible items or intangible liabilities. None of that is in Satoshi's system. Just numbers. Numbers are concepts on quantity represented by symbols (0-9). They are not invented by Satoshi. So you can't just rename numbers into bitcoin and claim that you've invented new money, coin or token. That's a lie.

No, you are wrong! Analogies with DNS or evolution are not nonsensical because you claim that Bitcoin doesn't exist because you can't touch it or feel it. You can't touch or feel DNS or evolution and yet they exist. How are those analogies nonsensical if they confirm that a thing can exist even if you can't touch it or feel it?

And... another round of lies and misinformation.

Writing down a number (a record) next to miner's address after that miner provided POW, doesn't magically make that record redeemable. For a record to be redeemable someone has to have a liability to exchange it for products, services or other redeemable records like fiat money.

Bitcoins, that is, bit-coins, don't exist. A coin is either a tangible item like gold or other item with intrinsic value, or a record where its issuer has a liability to redeem it. That what you have in Satoshi's system are numbers, fake-coins, that people falsely call coins, tokens or money.

Bitcoin uses proof of work to generate new coins. In your terms, this would be the liability to redeem the coins. Miners are constantly working trying to find a new block, if one finds a new block, bitcoin is redeemed to the miner who discovered it.

Without work, there's no generation of new coins. You need the work to generate the coins, it's literally what you're saying. There is a liability, the work needs to be done. Bitcoins are not created out of thin air, they are given for work done.