Topic: How Satoshi Nakamoto Fooled the World - page 34. (Read 8968 times)

Sure, if people repeatedly lie that coin called bitcoin exists then I must repeatedly address their lies. I don't care about their nonsensical analogies with DNS or evolution. The people here are lying and spreading misinformation. That's the point. Hiding behind stupid analogies won't make that lies go away.

A coin, a token, or money in the form of a record is basically a record of liability. Liability of the issuer of the record to redeem it. So, if that guy Satoshi claims that the numbers that his system is writing down are coins than he is actually claiming that someone has the liability to redeem them. Like banks redeem their records via loan repayments, like casinos redeem their records (tokens), like retailers redeem their gift cards, or corporations their bonds. But no entity exists that has the liability to redeem the record next to addresses in Satoshi's system. That's why the records that his system writes down are not coins. They're not bitcoins. They are fake numbers. Any idiot can print numbers, and then claim they are coins, without having any liability to redeem them. That's called a fraud and not a payment system.

I read the whole discussion since yesterday and all I see that you repeat the same thing all the time - Bitcoin doesn't exist because no one can show it to you. And when someone asks you about other things that do exist (communication protocols or evolution), you ignore the question or just say that you now nothing about that. Just let it go man... All of us here are delusional idiots who believe Bitcoin is something valuable and you are the only one smart enough to see that it's worthless. Is your life mission to save us all from our delusion?

Again, you don't have coins. You have fake number attached to your address that provides false information about the existance of a thing named "coin", while in reality you own nothing. Anyone can write down a number a name of a non-existent thing and then clam to owe it. I can write down to own 10 Ferraris. Satoshi, via his software, can write down that a miner's address owns 10 bitcoins. Someone else can counterfeit $10,000 dollars and claim to own bank debt. All that would be false information. If I would keep insisting I own 10 Ferries, while only pointing to what I wrote down, that would be called a delusion. If I would do that publicly, that would be spreading misinformation.

I am not confused. I am simply stating the fact that none of you are able to show a thing whose name is bitcoin, and whose quantities are written next to your addresses. That's all. That's why you're focused on ad hominem attacks. Talking about my motivation, education and knowledge. I am having real fun here watching what people are capable to do or say just to justify false narratives and misinformation. I am viewing this as some sort of psychological experiment.

As for your false claims. You bought nothing with bitcoin. You transferred fake numbers to people's addresses and these people transferred the ownership of the existing things to you. Why the people did that? Probably because they are the victims of misinformation that bitcoin is an existing thing.
I don't have opinion on bitcoin, I am exposing misinformation that bitcoin exist. I am proving that the numbers written down by the Satoshi's system are not the quantities of an existing digital thing but fake numbers.

Thanks for the show Snowshow. That's pretty dope of a troll you revealed here and I'm quiet not convinced at all too. I guess this is a late boomer who happen to know how messaging works and begin to hop in out of curiosity to Bitcoin. You need another course of "messaging 102" before you jump to another higher course like the blockchain system.

This was all a trolling thing though. Don't be wrong if you're on a streak territory, this is a Bitcoin forum after all and you're here to spread irrelevant things against it.

Do you know what Bitcoin is?

As I see it, your opinion about Bitcoin (yes, an opinion, not facts) seems to have the same value as my opinion about Darwin's theory of evolution, which I know practically nothing about. Imagine I were to claim that evolution of living organisms doesn't exist. Would you be able to prove me wrong given that I am completely ignorant on the subject?


However, 100 million people currently using the Bitcoin network beg to differ. And just another fact check, even your example shows that Bitcoin has at least some utility.  

That's the point: these 'only keys and math symbols' do hold value. You seem very confused, because you keep going back and forth between 'you guys just show the number e.g. 5BTC but not what it points to' and 'keys are just math symbols'. Those are two different things. Both are wrong, but both are different. Are you even aware of this? It would be beneficial to know what we're discussing about, because (1) is completely wrong and easy to understand, while (2) gets a little bit more interesting.

Just because two cryptographic keys are both 'math symbols' doesn't mean both need to have the same value. It's like saying 'your shed and this skyscraper are both building, lol why would this stupid guy buy the skyscraper for $100 million when he can buy a shed that is also a 'math symbol'building and only costs a couple grand?'

You explained very well; maybe it helps him understand better if we tell him that Bitcoin is UTXO based, so there are no 'accounts' per se, but ownership of UTXOs. This ownership is proven by possession of the only private key ('just number / math symbol') that allows you to transfer this UTXO to another owner. This is your ownership right. The key.

Again, I challenge @Snowshow to come up with a 'just a number' that allows him to send me 1BTC through the blockchain and I will pay him in cash for that coin. It doesn't get easier than that, according to him.
Heck, I'll send him the blockchain on a HDD via mail to make it easier for him.

Oh wow, sorry but you must be pretty clueless about technology. Maybe read a book or something. I'm not saying everyone needs to know what DNS is, but if you want to discuss the maths and protocol of Bitcoin at this level, it seems to me you lack all of the basics, and this is kind of the icing on the cake.

Since you like proofs, here's a proof okay? I and many others here bought lots of goods through Bitcoin. But you claim we never 'utilized' Bitcoin? How's that possible? If only our imagination would tell us that we own that amount of Bitcoin, nobody would take them for payment, right? Maybe you can prove me wrong, since you like proofs, and 'think you own xx bitcoins', then convince someone of it and have them give you a physical good for it? Good luck with that! No keys, no coins dude.

No, they cannot. One can provide a cryptographic signature that proves the ownership of 18 million coins and the other can't. Simple as that.
I know with pretty high confidence that you have zero idea about cryptography and signatures, so read a book or two on that as well, when you're done with the basic protocols of the internet. Then we can talk technology and cryptocurrencies. So long!

PS: Also read the forum rules. You always quote everything, that's painful.

I can only attach it to my machine, but not to others'. I can change it to 18,000,000 BTC to my machine, but this won't make it true, because I won't have the necessary digital signature to prove it so. I need other people to sign that I'm the new owner of their coins. I can't just make those up.

As for semantics, that you keep saying, you're the only one who's playing with semantics all the time... "numbers", "math symbols", "Satoshi's system"... Get real, man.

Ugh.. Same shit... All over again... You don't (want to) get it...

I demonstrated by empirical evidence that it is a fact. You've just rhetorically denied the evidence. Nothing else.

Does DNS exist? I don't even know what DNS is. If I would claim it exists I would provide evidence for my claim. You claim that bitcoin exists but you have zero evidence to back it up.

You cannot utilize bitcoin. All you can do is swap numbers with someone. And then use your imagination to think that you own xx bitcoins. Or you can think that Bitcoin is a good that will solve all your problems. You can think whatever you want because human capacity for imaginary creation is enormous.


You cannot buy the equivalent of $1.2 trillion in bitcoin, because bitcoin doesn't exist. All you can do is to have the sum of the numbers in the system attached to your address.

If I own 1 car and a guy owns 10,000 cars, this guy can show 10,000 more four-wheeled road vehicles powered by an engine, than I can.

If you have  0.0000001 attached to your address, and a guy has 18,000,000 attached you both can show equal number of keys and math symbols.

Units of a system is another name for math symbols. You're just paying semantics.

I don’t know if I really agree with that part of freedom. Well yes I do agree with it to an extent, but not like I fully agree with that. OK Bitcoin gives you freedom, but it is only in the financial aspect of things. The kind of freedom that Bitcoin gives you is the freedom that you are able to make transactions to anyone and anywhere around the world without any form of restrictions that are set by the government or any kind of regulation.

You are just completely free from government’s set rules and you can make transaction however you want it. That’s the kind of freedom it gives you. So it is not like freedom in everything.

That's what n0nce told you.

That's also true.

That's false. If you bought the equivalent of $1.2 trillion in Bitcoin, you'd have definitely more Bitcoin than I do, because your balance would be greater than mine.

That's a big difference. If you own 1 car and another owns 10,000 cars, you both own cars, and therefore, both own a number of cars, but not the same amount.

But only one of them can prove that they own 18,000,000 units of the system. The other has much much less.

This is not a fact, but your fiction. Stating that the Sun does not exist because you are visually impaired is not a statement of fact.


I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?
I know it's mind boggling, but it amazes me that after all this time you can't figure this stuff out yet ... maybe you'll catch on someday.


Since you don't know me, you can't know that. It's just your opinion. Once again, putting yourself ahead of 100 million other people is a sick level of arrogance. I suggest you talk to someone about it.


It seems to me that you have a very narrow and inaccurate idea of what a digital product is. Digital products are available in different forms. For example, Google Search is a digital product. You can't read it or watch it, but you can utilize it. In a similar manner, I can utilize bitcoin, so it is a digital product that exists.

You're repeatedly told me things that have no basis in reality. I debunked literally every statement that you made. And you just keep repeating them. Now you're questioning my motivation. What's next? You want to know how old I am? Or what I like to eat?

Everyone that has installed the wallet app has keys an numbers attached. Everyone that has downloaded blockchain can see numbers and addresses. Anyone that would pay $1.2 trillion today to have the sum of all the numbers in the Satoshi's system attached to their address, would have a number attached, the same as any person that holds an address in the system. It's just that the number would be different. But nobody would own something. A guy with 18,000,000 attached to his address, and a guy with 0.00000001 attached, can both show only keys and math symbols. Nothing else. There's no difference between them. So, what is your point? On what did the first guy spend 1.2 trillion dollars?

So if I digested all the information correctly, you are saying that Bitcoin (and by extension other cryptos that are forks of Bitcoin) is just a messaging system?

Actually, that's only partially correct. Bitcoin uses a messaging system called ZeroMQ to talk to peers. This is an external software and not directly part of Core.

The messages being relayed constitute a cryptographic financial system, because of the consensus rules (also coded in Bitcoin Core, but not in any particular source file) obeyed by all peers, their immutability, and penalties applied to nodes that break the consensus rules - they automatically fork themselves off the network.

Do you even read my replies?

Here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.59606677
I explained that there are two numbers in bitcoin. One is the balance, sure that's just a number. But we also have private and public keys (which are numbers) that prove the ownership.

Nobody claims that showing the first number (balance) proves ownership. It's the 'second number', the cryptographic keys.

Since you claim these are easy to generate, I challenge you to just 'come up with' or 'generate' a number (key) that grants you 1BTC.

You also didn't reply to my challenge of downloading the blockchain and thus owning all the coins (which you laughingly claimed possible before). Why?

So, why are you here? Why don't you live your life with this debt-based money you love using of, and leave those "clumsy" Bitcoiners to live their own lives with their "fraudulent money" as you're saying?

You appear once in a while, and want to convince us all that you're right. You repeat the same bullshit, "Bitcoin doesn't exist", "Satoshi lies you" etc., to achieve what exactly? This behavior shows me you're either ill-intentioned or simply problematic. Perhaps both.

I've repeatedly told you that Bitcoin doesn't have a tangible representation and only exists units-wise. People can imagine it exists, that it's some sort digital metal, that it's a public ledger, it's a matter of creativity beyond a certain level.

You couldn't have proved that my arguments are flawed because I made no arguments. I was simply stating facts. Saying that the Sun is bigger than the Moon is not an argument. Saying that bitcoin doesn't exist in Satoshi's system is not an argument. It's a statement of fact. I am simply observing the system. When people say that they bought bitcoin, all I can see is the change of a number next to their address. So, I observe a couple of math symbols, and not some revolutionary digital product that is capable of making people free. Then, I check the network. And I see nodes that are keeping the numbers and addresses stored in a database. Again, no revolutionary digital product there. Than I check the wallet app. I see only keys that everyone got for free. And numbers attached to address. And letters B, T, and C. But again, I see no revolutionary digital product there. So, I have empirically confirmed that no revolutionary digital product exists in the Satoshi's system. Not a single bitcoin holder has ever demonstrated to own such a product when joining the system. What we all observe is a simple system that attaches numbers to addresses and keeps that stored in a distributed database. People then simply read that numbers via wallet applications. That's literally everything. A revolutionary digital product, a new form of money, an advanced electronic cash, ... exist only in human imagination.  
I would never say that Elon Musk is stupid. Nor anyone here. You are just ignorant or driven by greed, so you shut down your brains when discussing bitcoin issues.
I can prove that a digital book exists by reading text or watching pictures after opening a file. In the same way you can prove that a number is attached to your address when opening your wallet. But you cannot prove that there's a digital product called bitcoin.

And I gave you an example that proves that your arguments are flawed.
I ask you again, does DNS exist? Can you show it to me?


Now you say over 100 million people around the world are stupid? Wow, talk about arrogance!


In fact, you can't really show a digital book. Unfortunately, humans do not have the ability to see (or perceive) digital electrical impulses stored and transmitted through electronic circuits. All you can do is show a visual (or audial) representation of digital data, whether it be a digital book, picture, audio recording, or any other data type, including bitcoin.


In light of what I just explained, you can't really show a digital product, so your argument is, once again, invalid.

I deny nothing. I am simply stating the fact that Bitcoin doesn't exist.
And I am saying that it is stupid to pay money just because a number will be attached to your name. Paying for communication via internet is reasonable. That's why we pay our internet providers. Paying for swapping numbers between addresses is not reasonable. So, it's pretty simple.
My point is what I have wrote: if you say that 5 digital(intangible) books or movies exist, you are not supposed to show number "5". But books and movies.

In the same way, if you say that a specific number of digital (intangible) bitcois exists, you're not supposed to show number, but digital products. However, all you can show is a number. Essentially, you are proving that bitcoin doesn't exist.

Don't be surprised. This is nothing new for him. He has claimed the same thing over the past four or five years. ^{[as fxsurfer, antikvark and Antithesis]}

He must be so stubborn that he won't admit he's been wrong the whole time. I can see how this can drive a man crazy. 

Please try! Really, I encourage you to please try doing so. Feel free to make a topic about it in case you get stuck somewhere and report back why and where it failed and why / where you were wrong so everyone can learn from your mistakes.

Just download the blockchain, steal some coins and sell them for fiat somewhere (I can buy them off you if you manage to get coins by just downloading the blockchain). Getting coins means being able to transfer them by the way. Thats the definition of ownership here. I want to receive them from you in my wallet, okay?

Good luck!