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Topic: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? - page 2. (Read 5943 times)

hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
Cornering the BTC market wouldn't be that tough - when big banks are buying up coin, they can prevent huge price spikes by naked shorting. Which is what they do with gold and silver.

You definitely don't know what're you talking about.

Cornering gold and silver market is possible because "rehypothecation" is used. One and the same physical metal is "re-pledged" as collateral. Thus, one and the same physical  gold or silver has many "owners" without those owners being aware that there are other owners as well. This is not possible with bitcoin! The owner is the one that has the privkey!

Uhh, have you ever heard of bitcoin EXCHANGES? As in, the places that produce 95% of crypto volume? What makes you think any privkeys are necessary on exchanges? Coins on an exchange are almost more abstract than an electronic balance statement at a bank, this has been proven each time another exchange vanishes into thin air with everyone's coin. In the case of Mt Gox, the coins people thought they held were probably never there... Mark was just shuffling around his little Excel spreadsheet and collecting bux.
legendary
Activity: 1204
Merit: 1028
Easy:

1) Start a plan to centralize nodes
2) Sell to people that it's better to sacrifice node decentralization in order to buy coffees on chain
3) Give 100% power to miners via BUcoin type clients that give them all the power over blocksize and get rid of any possibilities of user rebelion against miners via UASF
4) Bitcoin's most important property (bitcoin as decentralized gold) is now over
5) Governments now control transactions due having control over easily bribeable datacenters that run both nodes and miners.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
Good point on the NSA infiltrating the dev team. That may be why we see so much nonsense from them lately. So much FUD being spouted by devs and longtime bitcoin industry people. Seems a lot have been compromised.
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
Impossible, they can't, BTC is not traceable, anonymous point to point transactions, they can not trace to the whereabouts of BTC Grin Wink
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
Page 8 and no plausible method. 
Already done it while you were sleep, look how they got to BitMain which is a large miner manufacturer and till now they are pushing for a take over.

Only thing users can do is to hold their coins and don't sell so cheap and if they sell make sure they're selling to ordinary people like themselves.
When you tell people that bitcoin is the real deal and a game changer they just see what's in front of them which is the market and price fluctuations and greedy miners, they lack the ability to jump out of the orbit to see for themselves that sun light is not yellow and is white.
selling bitcoin is equal to giving away a diamond thinking it's only made from carbon and we have lots of carbon on earth.

When you say "they got to BitMain". Who do you mean? And how were they gotten? They seem to up and running. https://bitmain.com/
I know they have been involved in scandals, but that has no more to do with bitcoin than dollars have to do with a bank robbery. To defeat bitcoin one has to defeat the protocol. Going after people for cheating on taxes or scamming others is a different issue.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 506
Page 8 and no plausible method. 
Already done it while you were sleep, look how they got to BitMain which is a large miner manufacturer and till now they are pushing for a take over.

Only thing users can do is to hold their coins and don't sell so cheap and if they sell make sure they're selling to ordinary people like themselves.
When you tell people that bitcoin is the real deal and a game changer they just see what's in front of them which is the market and price fluctuations and greedy miners, they lack the ability to jump out of the orbit to see for themselves that sun light is not yellow and is white.
selling bitcoin is equal to giving away a diamond thinking it's only made from carbon and we have lots of carbon on earth.
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
Cornering the BTC market wouldn't be that tough - when big banks are buying up coin, they can prevent huge price spikes by naked shorting. Which is what they do with gold and silver.

You definitely don't know what're you talking about.

Cornering gold and silver market is possible because "rehypothecation" is used. One and the same physical metal is "re-pledged" as collateral. Thus, one and the same physical  gold or silver has many "owners" without those owners being aware that there are other owners as well. This is not possible with bitcoin! The owner is the one that has the privkey!
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 504
NSA wouldn't try to destroy/attack bitcoin overtly. As others have said, if bitcoin broke overnight, everyone would just move to altcoin X. The NSA's goal would likely be to subvert cryptocurrency as a whole and make it difficult/impractical/dangerous for people to use.

NSA would definitely implement systems that track and trace all transactions and associate them with real people, and they likely already have done this. "Full take" electronic surveillance would be mandatory on a couple of key players/investors in the space, and likely is in place. NSA would definitely place a few "assets" in the dev teams and mining community, and they likely already have done this. NSA could even have a few spokespeople advocating a wrong path forward (for example that Blockstream "Johnny" guy who came out of nowhere looks fishy to me...). I would be very surprised if NSA didn't have at least 4 assets at various levels inside Blockstream.

Often times, people don't even know that they are working for the NSA, because they have a "handler" who mediates between the agency and the employee. NSA is likely recruiting top CS grads and encryption experts from MIT, Stanford, and Caltech, and CMU - same as always.

Cornering the BTC market wouldn't be that tough - when big banks are buying up coin, they can prevent huge price spikes by naked shorting. Which is what they do with gold and silver.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
 In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply.

Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet?

Not banks.  Central banks.   Well, first of all they should have a motivation - I was just answering the OP.  But they also should be legally allowed to do so (that is, have bitcoin on the list of assets they can buy, like they can buy gold, and certain securities).  I don't think any big central bank is allowed to emit money against bitcoin yet.

You don't have any bank experience, do you?

Banks never do that directly. Instead they'll give credit line to a company that will do what they want be done.

I was talking the way central banks manipulate the gold market.  Bitcoin is similar.  It is a collectible.  Normal banks can't do that, because they would put themselves at risk with respect to other banks.  Only central banks can do so, if their rules allow it.

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 251
Do not ask that silly question, no one can take over control Bitcoin because it is based on the decentralized system. And as you know, the Chinese are trying to do that job but the results still remain zero. Bitcoin will still a symbol for freedom
legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
 In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply.

Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet?

Not banks.  Central banks.   Well, first of all they should have a motivation - I was just answering the OP.  But they also should be legally allowed to do so (that is, have bitcoin on the list of assets they can buy, like they can buy gold, and certain securities).  I don't think any big central bank is allowed to emit money against bitcoin yet.

You don't have any bank experience, do you?

Banks never do that directly. Instead they'll give credit line to a company that will do what they want be done.
full member
Activity: 179
Merit: 250
NSA or any other agency won't gain anything by destroying Bitcoin because it's not a threat to the national security of any country right now and I don't think it will be any time soon. Plus Bitcoin is open-source right? So any tampering with the source code or placing backdoors would be easily noticed wouldn't it?

Abslutley! it would be an exercise in futility for any government to try and manipulate bitcoin.  The genie is out of the bottle nad now we are in control.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1147
The revolution will be monetized!
Page 8 and no plausible method. 
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
  In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. 

Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet?

Not banks.  Central banks.   Well, first of all they should have a motivation - I was just answering the OP.  But they also should be legally allowed to do so (that is, have bitcoin on the list of assets they can buy, like they can buy gold, and certain securities).  I don't think any big central bank is allowed to emit money against bitcoin yet.


legendary
Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
  In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply. 

Bitcoin is of finite supply. Why banks can't corner bitcoin market yet?
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
It is extremely easy for any big central bank to take over any collectible.  The only thing that is needed, is that there's a legal frame in which the central bank is allowed to buy said asset as a backing.  Central banks are fairly restricted in the kinds of assets they may buy up to deliver printed fiat, but if bitcoin is part of that list, then that central bank can just print as much money as needed to buy up the stash of bitcoin it needs.   The reason for that is that the more bitcoin is worth, the that banks' backing allows it to print money to buy it.

As such, that central bank can pump up the price of said asset sky high, and print the necessary money to buy whatever it needs without real economic costs.  In other words, a central bank can corner any market of finite supply.  Once she's done that, slowly enough for enough OTHER people to buy a fair amount of bitcoin, she dumps it like crazy, crashes the market, and makes all those invested in it totally burned.  If that didn't cut it, rinse and repeat. 

Central banks cannot do this to other currencies, because other currencies are elastic too and cannot be cornered.  But collectibles are easily cornered by a central bank.

As long as a central bank is not legally allowed to buy coins, it cannot happen, but once an asset is declared suitable as a backing for a central bank, she can totally master the asset (unless she enters in competition with a foreign central bank doing the same of course).
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 278
Bitcoin :open immutable decentralized global fair
Well, in their view it is not a big enough threat to attack and spend millions on gaining a majority of the hashing power.  Once it is determined to be a threat it will be too large for them to buy their way in to control.  Plus the second they gain control is when all of the money floods out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto.  That is the beauty of it, we are not forced in to using the currency so attacking it results in wasted money as the users move out of Bitcoin and in to a different crypto-currency.

The agencies would have an interest to make bitcoin big. They can use it for their own operations if needed and they can follow the trail of the money. Since everyone know that, for example the nsa, controls the internet traffic of whole countries. So it would be not really hard to fight terrorism and similar things like that.

Well, pushing in bad code that is not found might be another nice gimmick but so far I think it was not successfull. Too many observe things closely.

The idea of inserting "bad code" under the eyes of everyone is not new:

+1 because thanks to Gavn, we have a scenario, where exacty this reverse exploit could be implemented. Please core devs: Don't let it happen!

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/vcblog/archive/2014/02/04/challenge-vulnerable-code.aspx
http://www.underhanded-c.org/_p_26.html

Quote
This challenge appeared on an internal alias dedicated to C++. It was issued by Mike Vine, a developer here at Microsoft who agreed to let us share it with the mighty Visual C++ blog readers:

This challenge came from me thinking about a simple bug which could be turned into a security vulnerability, so I thought I’d give it a go and try to code a plausibly deniable piece of code which looks innocent but is actually dangerous. I managed to actually go further than that, and produced something, that whilst unlikely, could possibly have come from non-malicious but sloppy coding.

So your challenge is – if you choose to accept it – analyze the sample code file “main.c” (attached) and try to find the (fairly obvious) security faux pas and ‘accidental’ bug which causes the security faux pas to be exploitable.



Quote
The 7th Underhanded C Contest is now open.

The goal of the contest is to write code that is as readable, clear, innocent and straightforward as possible, and yet it must fail to perform at its apparent function. To be more specific, it should do something subtly evil. Every year, we will propose a challenge to coders to solve a simple data processing problem, but with covert malicious behavior. Examples include miscounting votes, shaving money from financial transactions, or leaking information to an eavesdropper. The main goal, however, is to write source code that easily passes visual inspection by other programmers.



Your posts and questions you pose to the community here are invaluable and hope to see more in the future. Unless if you are me, are you me? Then I guess I would need to post...Or are you Satoshi?

Wink

anyways thank you for finding my post and commenting, good to know old-timers are paying attention in the forums.
(re my post: "Hacks Puppets and Forks: How to destory bitcoin") https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/hacks-puppets-forks-how-to-destroy-bitcoin-1834310
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
... So if people can see that someone is trying to disrupt the Bitcoin network everyone will pull out of the crypto and its value will plummet in hours.

For anyone to "pull out," there must be someone to "pull in." How are you going to sell coins that no one wants to buy? And to whom?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Shit, did I leave the stove on?
I agree that if the price of Bitcoin gets huge at some point in the future the NSA or other agency may try to intervene and take control of the Bitcoin network in the name of the US government. But doesn't the strength of Bitcoin depend on its user base? So if people can see that someone is trying to disrupt the Bitcoin network everyone will pull out of the crypto and its value will plummet in hours. What is the US government going to do with a defunct crypto coin then?
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