IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? - page 7.

Almagro

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Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 02:19:08 AM

Some ideas on how it could work:

- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge
- Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff
- Discredit respected members of the community
- Kill people, if they don't corporate.

Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid?

this frightens me a lot =x

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

I have yet to see a single feasible idea of how bitcoin can be "destroyed". Not in this thread, not in any thread in the last 6 years. The only possible concern I have is a loss of net neutrality. If that happens all decisions about what will be allowed on the internet are in the hands of a few people. It would be the end of all electronic privacy and bitcoin may be the least of our concerns.

becoin

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 11:02:41 AM

You don't have good reasons to find theirs.

I do have.
Taxpayers have very good reasons to know what their taxes are spent for.

Wapinter

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Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 11:14:22 AM

Quote from: Wapinter on May 06, 2016, 11:07:30 AM

Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 02:19:08 AM

Some ideas on how it could work:

- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge
- Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff
- Discredit respected members of the community
- Kill people, if they don't corporate.

Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid?

The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore

I was not saying "destroy" but "take control", which is significantly different.

But wouldn't their taking contol of bitcoin will actually akin to destroying the bitcoin?
So it is not different whether they contol it or destroy it

AGD

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Keeper of the Private Key

Quote from: Wapinter on May 06, 2016, 11:07:30 AM

Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 02:19:08 AM

Some ideas on how it could work:

- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge
- Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff
- Discredit respected members of the community
- Kill people, if they don't corporate.

Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid?

The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore

I was not saying "destroy" but "take control", which is significantly different.

Snorek

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Quote from: Wapinter on May 06, 2016, 11:07:30 AM

Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 02:19:08 AM

Some ideas on how it could work:

- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge
- Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff
- Discredit respected members of the community
- Kill people, if they don't corporate.

Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid?

The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore

Bitcoin won't upgrade itself. People need to do that, and it is better to own these key people crucial for bitcoin development?
Then you could impose some ideas on rest of the community and lead it where you want it.

And maybe that is their plan? They don't want bitcoin to be useful anymore, they want to be 'failed experiment'. No more bitcoin = stronger dollar, maybe?

whored

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Quote from: Wapinter on May 06, 2016, 11:07:30 AM

The question is why would they do it?

If Bitcoin becomes a threat or a nuisance?

@becoin re. "my taxpayer money" -- they actually tax your dole?

becoin

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 11:02:41 AM

If you are like 99.999% of us, then let them try to do the monitoring they want; you will not be caught in their patterns, they will not care of your secrets.

I will not give them my taxpayer money to let them monitor me! I'm not an imbecile. Case solved.

Wapinter

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Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 02:19:08 AM

Some ideas on how it could work:

- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge
- Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff
- Discredit respected members of the community
- Kill people, if they don't corporate.

Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid?

The question is why would they do it?the moment they took contol of bitcoin and destroy it decentralization we all will abandon it.Bitcoin will no longer be useful anymore

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: becoin on May 06, 2016, 10:41:12 AM

If it sounds silly and it looks silly most probably it is silly.

All you want to imply is that there's only black and white, no other choice.

I know, it sounds scary that you cannot, in theory, have secrets. But that's only in theory.
Nothing can be monitored perfectly. From the point that some things happened in places inaccessible for the ones that do the monitoring to the point there's so much information that it doesn't matter they do the monitoring or not, they cannot find you unless they look express for you or you draw attention.

Some years ago it was said that mails are monitored and certain words like bomb, meth, "rang the alarm".
From maybe millions of mails sent each second.. what can they find? Hmm?
And then add up all the other means to find your secrets.

What do they do? Search for needles in the haystack. A huge haystack.

So, back to start. Imho you have your secrets, they have theirs. They have the good reasons to find yours if they can harm "the country". You don't have good reasons to find theirs.
If you are like 99.999% of us, then let them try to do the monitoring they want; you will not be caught in their patterns, they will not care of your secrets.

becoin

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 10:23:21 AM

Quote from: becoin on May 06, 2016, 09:18:16 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 08:12:59 AM

.. whatever, I hope you've got my point.

I've got your point. Let me summarize it:
- everybody can have secrets and that is OK
- NSA have secrets and taxpayers are not allowed to know them because taxpayers will not be safe if they know them.
- If taxpayers have secrets NSA have the right to know them because taxpayers will be safe if NSA know their secrets

However silly it sounds, yes, this is the big picture.

If it sounds silly and it looks silly most probably it is silly.

JaneEverycunt

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Quote from: AGD on May 06, 2016, 02:19:08 AM

Some ideas on how it could work:

- Read through the connection data (phone,email etc) from key figures of the Bitcoin community to gain insider knowledge
- Infiltrate core development and replace Bitcoin key figures with NSA staff
- Discredit respected members of the community
- Kill people, if they don't corporate.

Are core devs discussing this possiblility of a large scale infiltration and how to avoid?

- Find dirt on devs; offer laughably small sums of money to put on jackboots. Alternative: fed time.
- Offer Chinese miners actual IRL money > 12.5 BTC after the halvening to solve blocks.
- Block port 8333 at provider level.
- Be like Russia and Iceland, make BTC illegal.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: becoin on May 06, 2016, 09:18:16 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 08:12:59 AM

.. whatever, I hope you've got my point.

I've got your point. Let me summarize it:
- everybody can have secrets and that is OK
- NSA have secrets and taxpayers are not allowed to know them because taxpayers will not be safe if they know them.
- If taxpayers have secrets NSA have the right to know them because taxpayers will be safe if NSA know their secrets

However silly it sounds, yes, this is the big picture.

The other alternative would be the Eden: no secrets at all, we all go naked, nothing wrong will happen.
I guess that this is what you'd like.
Oh well, the sad truth is that some say that there was a snake in Eden and then everything was ruined.

becoin

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 08:12:59 AM

.. whatever, I hope you've got my point.

I've got your point. Let me summarize it:
- everybody can have secrets and that is OK
- NSA have secrets and taxpayers are not allowed to know them because taxpayers will not be safe if they know them.
- If taxpayers have secrets NSA have the right to know them because taxpayers will be safe if NSA know their secrets

Cuidler

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To take control over Bitcoin, you need to take control over Bitcoin Core actually. This would be very slow process of infiltration + discrediting estabilished Bitcoin Core members. It would take many years, but quite achievable.

The only possibility of failure to the above strategy would be if in meantime
1) Bitcoin Core lose defacto monopoly in Bitcoin development process
2) miners starts voting only for the BIPs which they believe are benefitical for them, and not just running the latest Bitcoin Core version, thus automatically vote for every new Bitcoin Core BIP proposal by default

RodeoX

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The revolution will be monetized!

We need to bring back civics education. Roll Eyes

pbleak

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The NSA have no obvious history of doing something like this (the FBI do).

I would imagine it would involve a few tactics:
(a) at least one member in Core providing excellent code for a long time that then begins to cause debate/trouble.
(b) introduce a bug or bad feature that turns users off Bitcoin (that is, destroy the user experience subtly).
(c) encourage further scams or dark net markets to re-associate Bitcoin with crime.
(d) fund counter, centralised blockchains to bleed money from the Bitcoin economy.
(e) fund relatively decent alt-coins to channel money from Bitcoin to fragment the economy.
(f) cause trouble with the mining network wherever possible, disrupt pools, ddos large pools, spread rumours about the Chinese operation.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: becoin on May 06, 2016, 06:05:28 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 06, 2016, 05:38:27 AM

But normally such agencies have a lot to hide and it's OK.

Really? Is it really OK? But why for all of us is NOT OK if we hide something? Why are such animals (aka agencies) more equal than others? Are we living in a Democratic Republic or in Orwellian Animal Farm?

If they are special agency then I'm special person... Where can I apply for a special person status, so that I can have the right to hide something?

If police tells "we think that one of ISIS funders is John Doe from city X, street Y and we go now to catch him", he may just escape. So it's OK to keep secret.
If the army has this and that which could keep the country safe, it's OK to keep it secret, since else the others will build something better.
If NSA can crack Bitcoin and see whoever sends whatever amounts where, they'll keep it secret to find easier the terrorists, the tax evaders and so on, and it's OK.

Of course, they can hide this way also illegal stuff, which obviously is not OK, but that was not my point.

And whether you admit it or not, you have secrets too. And it's OK. Maybe you smoke in secret, or take drugs, maybe you masturbate and would not like everybody to know, maybe you have a mistress, or .. whatever, I hope you've got my point.

raphma

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Quote from: bitdumper on May 06, 2016, 02:29:30 AM

They will need more hash power than the whole world mining today to do a 51% attack, which is probably nit gonna happen. There is no other way to block bitcoins.

Well... that could happen with the new quantum computer but it will need time to nsa put their hands on one of these.
At the same time they want one quantum, companies already work on new cryptography to avoid that, so... it's possible but wont be easy.

I don't see any government succeeding in control bitcoin for now, at least for some years(10+).

fenican

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Agree they love Bitcoin so why kill it? Every transaction in Bitcoin is traceable so once you figure out what address someone is using, usually an easy investigation, you can figure out where all their money went. Contrast with cash where there is no audit trail.

Topic: IF the NSA wanted to take control over Bitcoin, how would they do it? - page 7. (Read 5987 times)