Topic: I'm Kevin, here's my side. - page 17. (Read 258592 times)

Nobody here knows that's what happened though.

And there are many ways this could be interpreted in wholly different ways. One way could be, depending on what actually happened, is that MtGox's system sold me bitcoins that they didn't have a seller for, so they sold them to me themselves.

That's a bit of a stretch, but saying what happened here is positively "theft" when there's no evidence of any "theft" happening, and it's hard to say that even if what they say happened did happen, that it's actually theft or not.

Alright.. so amdist all the wailing and gnashing of teeth I've yet to see anyone propose an actual solution to this problem, that is not outlandish and ridiculous (e.g. laywering up - no one wins here.)

So, I propose the following.  Full disclosure:  I personally know Kevin through mutual colleagues, and occassionally (2-3 times a year?) speak with him via AIM about various nerdy projects we're working on.  This is the extent of my personal relationship with him.  Oh, we at one point (5 years or so ago?) repaired a broken solenoid in a pinball machine together.


Kevin,

You say in your post that you are more concerned about the community and future growth of Bitcoin rather than your own pocketbook.  Many here obviously dispute this claim, and for good reason are unlikely to believe you.

Given this, would you agree to a panel of senior community members (chosen at large by the community as a whole) to become a panel for arbitration between yourself and MtGox?  Lets call it 5 senior well-respected members, who both MtGox, yourself, and the community can all trust.

Kevin will submit his story, which he pretty much already did it seems.  MtGox will tell their side, and provide confidential information needed to verify it to these 5 panel members.

These 5 members will decide the best course of action in relation to your specific situation with the following guidelines given to them:
* The primary consideration is what is best for the community as a whole
* Any solution will not bankrupt or otherwise substantially impact MtGox's operational capabilities

This would accomplish the following, based on your +/- system:
+ Gives the community some semblance of transparency for a MAJOR issue with the bitcoin market as a whole (as it exists today, at least)
+ Allows both sides to tell their story in relative confidence, thus protecting any major run on markets or mtgox due to new info being released that may be damaging.
+ Keeps this situation out of the court system, where it really has no business belonging and everyone is a loser
+ Quick resolution if MtGox agrees to this, I can't imagine it taking more than a few hours?
- Random panel of 5 "Internet Dudes" are deciding your fate
- You have a very substantial chance of being ordered to give back the BTC you withdrew, should the community members deem it appropriate

I believe this solution, with of course some tweaks to make both parties feel comfortable can accomplish everyone's *stated* goals here.  It will allow Kevin to know what happened, so he knows he's not being completely taken advantage of, it will allow the community to gain transparency and show to outsiders we can resolve problems in an expediant and reasonable manner.  Additionally MtGox will be able to end the rampant speculation as to their activities, and at least for me personally I'd regain a lot of confidence in their exchange.

Does someone have anything better?  Kevin, do you agree in principle to this?  MtGox?  Community feedback?

My personal goal is the longevity of Bitcoin.  Discussions with Kevin lead me to believe this is also his goal as well.  Is it MtGox's goal?  They have stated it is!  If so, step up!  If they do not, then I will have lost faith in their motives myself.  Others will make their own decisions.

The dealer could be sued in civil court. Yes, not existing anymore presents a problem, however in this case Mt Gox is still around and should be reimbursing the original account.

I'm Spartacus!  I mean, "the bitcoin loser".

Your wrong. I know someone how bought a stolen vehicle and they lost all their money and the vehicle. The dealer closed it doors. What do you do now? Sue the person whos vehicle was stole to get your money back? You mean in a theft you would want your items back?

Fine.  In that case the trade should be rolled back and the BTC returned.  But I'd insist on seeing the evidence.

When you talk about fat finger trades and so on, that is missing the fact that there are no T&Cs that anybody signed up to, the market is unregulated and the rules that apply on Wall Street do not apply to mt. gox.

Wow, my trust for mtgox just went a little lower, didn't know that was even possible any more.

Any news from Baron on if he ever got his money back?

Amen!

QFT.

Kevin, cry me a river and troll elsewhere.

Does anyone still remember how MtGox handled the last situation where there was a large amount at stake for MtGox?

http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?topic=3712.0

That guy explained himself, was hounded by the community, MtGox barely bothered to respond, made some outlandish claims, froze funds and rapidly moved the whole operation to a different jurisdiction (Japan) after the guy finaly decided to get lawyers involved.

MtGox promised to inform the community! No news yet, and it´s been 6 months!

What you non-trading goofballs keep missing is the trade was fraudulent to begin with.

The rest is just bickering over who keeps a pot of gold that fell out of the sky.

Doesn't matter either way, the trades get rolled back and this thread will disappear under the newest wave of trollbait and ranting like usual. Just the way it is.

All this talk of theft and zero evidence an actual theft took place.

The system should be rolled back (imo).  But the actual story needs to come out, someone already said it better than I could have - my belief based on all the evidence is this was MtGox's actual account, not a users.  It is really the only plausible scenario that makes logical sense, based on the evidence available to us.

Does this mean a rollback should not happen?  IMO no!  But it means we're being lied to.  Why?

And seriously, people actually care about the 700 coins taken out that are likely to be given back when this is all resolved?  Man you guys focus on the wrong stuff.

So if suddenly bitcoin clients broke and everyone gained 99999btc you'd be fine with keeping those bitcoins then right?

No where did I hear Kevin say "I should get to keep them all!"

In fact he is speaking out primarily because he personal account contradicts MtGox side of things.

This is not going to be solved on an internet forum. I personally can't claim to know anything about the truth.

However MtGox has established itself as a reputable business within our community. They do have records of all the trades, where the transfers came, and their own transfers. Much of this can be corroborated by independent sources and even within the bitcoin blocks themselves.

I do think that the only way MtGox will repair the trust lost from their investors and this community as well as quell any stupid conspiracies is to bring in an independent financial auditor or forensic investigator. Yes I know this is what caused the problem in the first place, THAT auditor deserves to be sued nine ways till sunday. However instead of a general audit this particular incident needs to be investigated and explained in detail.

There are just too many questions everyone has and it at this point is just too early to have all the information.

Let MtGox do a thorough investigation, let an independent investigator in (with tighter security controls in place), and lets all reserve judgement until the verifiable facts come out.

Very good post OP, I completely agree.
As I said here the rollback punishes the people who stood up and did the right (heroic) thing.

Next time the market drops there will be less incentive to step up and buy:
1) They could lose if the market keeps going down for a long time.
2) They could lose if it was a short term selloff which then would be undone by a rollback.

I know the rollback is a rare occasion, but so was this crash, what if the next crash less people will stand up? Just roll it back again? Where do you draw the line.

The police would seize your vehicle if they were aware of the situation. If you didn't know it was stolen, you wouldn't be charged with any crime.

Oh Wow.

I also have very little to lose. If it really did come down to it, and I was forced to give up the 643 BTC, it would suck, but I would move on. I can't think of anything they could possibly sue over beyond this, and if they tried it they'd definitely look like the bad guys here.

I'll tell you what causes a loss of confidence: an exchange that takes arbitrary actions which it never specified in its user agreement to protect itself.

I got all of my dollars and bitcoins of of mtgox a few weeks ago. I've been generally unimpressed by the standard of mtgox software ever since it was first released, and this whole hacking fandango came as no surprise to me unfortunately.


What's with so many people loving mtgox? they have "some responsibility" for writing crappy software, getting hacked via a dodgy auditor and getting the entire contents of the exchange sold off in 5 minutes? You're right, they do have the tiniest smidgeon of responsibility there...