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Topic: Intellectual Property - In All Fairness! - page 52. (Read 105875 times)

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 09:02:21 PM
It sounds to me like Libertarianism is nothing but a cry of "I don't like what the current leaders are doing, and I want them to do something else". That's fair enough, I suppose...but this whole voluntary thing will absolutely lead back to where we are today, unless you change human biology.

Don't give credit where no credit is due.  As we just exposed a few pages back, the "voluntary" thing is absolutely NOT voluntary.  People that disagree with the "voluntary" rules and "voluntary" system will be forced by violence to comply with it.  So it's "voluntary" only if you agree with it - thus not at all voluntary.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:57:40 PM
I don't quite understand how the modern system isn't already the exact natural progression of things from what you describe, though.

Sorry, I don't either. I see a lot of regulation as a result of things that eventually broke and that people believed needed to be fixed, not just random ideas people with hunger for power pulled out of their rear.
Perhaps the diference is the fundamental philosophy on which the laws and society are built? Such as "everyone is forced to do what the majority believed everyone should do" v.s. "I won't screw with you, and likewise won't rely on you helping me?"
I am not against the idea of a libertarian nation forming as an experiment in self-governance, but not sure if i would be able to live there.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 26, 2011, 08:52:50 PM
Sadly, we don't agree not to do those things.

Even murderers don't want to be murdered. Even thiefs don't want to be robbed. We almost all agree on the rules. Not everyone follows them though.

That's fair enough, I suppose...but this whole voluntary thing will absolutely lead back to where we are today, unless you change human biology.

The key difference is that it will be voluntary.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:49:48 PM
YOU CAN'T GET NUKES IN OUR CURRENT WORLD BECAUSE THEY AND THEIR DETAILED MANUFACTURING METHODS ARE HEAVILY, HEAVILY CONTROLLED BY THE HALF-HANDFUL OF NATIONS THAT OWN THEM.

Aka, publicly available on the internet.

That's why every country that wants nukes has nukes.  Roll Eyes

Everyone knows how they work in theory, very few have the experience to actually assemble a working one and to make weapons grade uranium.

So, wait, now the reason everyone doesn't have nukes is because it is ridiculously difficult and expensive to manufacture one? I thought the only reason was regulation, and without it anyone would be able to make and sell one?
I'm seriously confused about your claims here. First you say a country without regulations will end up with everyone having nukes. Then you say international regulations will keep even countries without regulations from obtaining them. Then you say that that international regulation is the only thing keeping random people from getting nukes. Now you're saying that getting a nuke requires very specialized and rare knowledge and skills.
It's like every time you come to an impase, you move the limits back a bit. Can you please be consistent?

P.S. if my questions seem really stupid, it may be because I am at times trying to play devil's advocate and am asking you obvious and stupid questions which end up leading you to rather obvious and contradictory answers. See paragraph above.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
September 26, 2011, 08:47:58 PM
Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

Libertarians aren't against government as long as there is consent to be governed.

Fair enough, but in which universe will people agree on enough things for this to be practical?

I think we all agree not to murder, rape and rob each other. At some point, we don't need to agree on everything. There can exist competing jurisdictions. If you own property, you set the rules on that property. If you go on someone else's property, you follow their rules. If you don't like it, leave their property. However, don't be confused like AyeYo and think that you can set whatever rules you want for other people and force them to leave their own property if they don't like it.

Sadly, we don't agree not to do those things. That's why laws were written down and are enforced. There is no difference in what you describe as what is the real world today.

It sounds to me like Libertarianism is nothing but a cry of "I don't like what the current leaders are doing, and I want them to do something else". That's fair enough, I suppose...but this whole voluntary thing will absolutely lead back to where we are today, unless you change human biology.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
September 26, 2011, 08:44:30 PM
Argument going on here is government with legal regulation versus libertarian free-market anarchy with voluntary community-imposed regulation. I think you and I are in agreement that government regulation will not stop all instances of "bad," and libertarian organizations (companies, communities) would not sell nukes to random people or use them for same reasons that corrupt unregulated dictators won't.

I see, thanks for clearing that up. Yeah I agree that any police force will never prevent all crime (can happen before they know about it, etc), and neither can a government prevent people outwitting any regulation. That will certainly apply in libertarian societies too. Out of curiosity, do you have a better way to defend against that in a libertarian society? Or will be based on punishment (eg exclusion from the group)?

I don't quite understand how the modern system isn't already the exact natural progression of things from what you describe, though. Governments, regulation, police, armies, all catapulted in size based on transport options and arms races. How do you plan to fundamentally change human psychology to not have the same inevitable outcome?

full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 08:43:29 PM
However, don't be confused like AyeYo and think that you can set whatever rules you want for other people and force them to leave their own property if they don't like it.

Exactly.  We can have lots of suggestions (i.e. voluntary laws), but we can have no real rules and we cannot handle externalities.

I can tell you not to juggle small pox vials on my front lawn, but I can do nothing to stop you from juggling them on your front lawn six inches away... even though the net effect to me if you drop one would be the same.

That's why it's unworkable and delusional.

Glad you let me know that in the country where you live, I can juggle stuff like nitroglycerin or other dangerous explosives or materials six inches away from you, and you can't do anything about it. I'll make sure to stay far away from where you live.


What the hell are you talking about?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:42:03 PM
However, don't be confused like AyeYo and think that you can set whatever rules you want for other people and force them to leave their own property if they don't like it.

Exactly.  We can have lots of suggestions (i.e. voluntary laws), but we can have no real rules and we cannot handle externalities.

I can tell you not to juggle small pox vials on my front lawn, but I can do nothing to stop you from juggling them on your front lawn six inches away... even though the net effect to me if you drop one would be the same.

That's why it's unworkable and delusional.

Glad you let me know that in the country where you live, I can juggle stuff like nitroglycerin or other dangerous explosives or materials six inches away from you, and you can't do anything about it. I'll make sure to stay far away from where you live.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 08:41:09 PM
YOU CAN'T GET NUKES IN OUR CURRENT WORLD BECAUSE THEY AND THEIR DETAILED MANUFACTURING METHODS ARE HEAVILY, HEAVILY CONTROLLED BY THE HALF-HANDFUL OF NATIONS THAT OWN THEM.

Aka, publicly available on the internet.

That's why every country that wants nukes has nukes.  Roll Eyes

Everyone knows how they work in theory, very few have the experience to actually assemble a working one and to make weapons grade uranium.



Quote
It DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER that nukes are unregulated in Sealand BECAUSE SEALAND DOESN'T HAVE ANY NUKES BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED REGULATION.

Either a country without regulations will have a major nuke ownership problem, or a country without regulations will still not have nukes due to outside international regulations and citizens of the country itself will not wanting random people owning nukes. So, either the whole nuke thing was a ridiculous straw man, or the whole nuke thing was a non-issue. Which is it?

God fucking damnit I can't handle the stupid.  Can someone else field this one?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 08:38:21 PM
However, don't be confused like AyeYo and think that you can set whatever rules you want for other people and force them to leave their own property if they don't like it.

Exactly.  We can have lots of suggestions (i.e. voluntary laws), but we can have no real rules and we cannot handle externalities.

I can tell you not to juggle small pox vials on my front lawn, but I can do nothing to stop you from juggling them on your front lawn six inches away... even though the net effect to me if you drop one would be the same.

That's why it's unworkable and delusional.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:37:35 PM
YOU CAN'T GET NUKES IN OUR CURRENT WORLD BECAUSE ... THEIR DETAILED MANUFACTURING METHODS ARE HEAVILY, HEAVILY CONTROLLED BY THE HALF-HANDFUL OF NATIONS THAT OWN THEM.

Aka, publicly available on the internet.

Quote
It DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER that nukes are unregulated in Sealand BECAUSE SEALAND DOESN'T HAVE ANY NUKES BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED REGULATION.

Either a country without regulations will have a major nuke ownership problem, or a country without regulations will still not have nukes due to outside international regulations and citizens of the country itself will not wanting random people owning nukes. So, either the whole nuke thing was a ridiculous straw man, or the whole nuke thing was a non-issue. Which is it?
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 26, 2011, 08:33:14 PM
Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

Libertarians aren't against government as long as there is consent to be governed.

Fair enough, but in which universe will people agree on enough things for this to be practical?

I think we all agree not to murder, rape and rob each other. At some point, we don't need to agree on everything. There can exist competing jurisdictions. If you own property, you set the rules on that property. If you go on someone else's property, you follow their rules. If you don't like it, leave their property. However, don't be confused like AyeYo and think that you can set whatever rules you want for other people and force them to leave their own property if they don't like it.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:30:44 PM
Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

Libertarians aren't against government as long as there is consent to be governed.

Fair enough, but in which universe will people agree on enough things for this to be practical?

Current global international businesses that deal with outsourcing, offshoring, and cloud storage and services, where employees and customers are no longer tied to a specific geographic region, a single country's laws and regulations no longer apply, and contracts between businesses, suppliers, and customers have to depend on trust and mutual benefit, are the infancy stage of that universe.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 08:28:27 PM
Sorry, looked it up on Wikipedia. Manufacturing doesn't look that difficult. Go to any Middle Eastern or African country without a strong government and you'll likely be able to make it without a hastle. Doesn't look like there are international regulations for it, either, and a large compressed tank of liquid flourine gas with an attached explosive can be one hell of a deterrent.

Cool.  So what started out as an example of how easy it is to obtain dangerous gases has turned into a trip to the other side of the planet, has-mat suits, and etc.  Great example.  Roll Eyes

Isn't it pretty easy to obtain nukes if you live in an unregulated country? You guys said if I lived somewhere where there is no regulation, like, say, in Sealand, it would be easy for everyone to have nukes. Is it or isn't it?


Dude... like... seriously...  please explain to me what part of this statement you don't understand, so I can help you to understand it:

YOU CAN'T GET NUKES IN OUR CURRENT WORLD BECAUSE THEY AND THEIR DETAILED MANUFACTURING METHODS ARE HEAVILY, HEAVILY CONTROLLED BY THE HALF-HANDFUL OF NATIONS THAT OWN THEM.


It DOES NOT FUCKING MATTER that nukes are unregulated in Sealand BECAUSE SEALAND DOESN'T HAVE ANY NUKES BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE MENTIONED REGULATION.

That's like saying if I go to Sudan, where unicorns aren't regulated, I should be able to buy a unicorn.  THEY DON'T HAVE AN UNICORNS TO BUY, SO IT MATTERS NOT THAT THERE IS NO UNICORN REGULATION.


What part of that is confusing you?
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 08:25:41 PM
Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

There sure is.  It's right here...

Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

Libertarians aren't against government as long as there is consent to be governed.


Seems common sense.  No one wants government forced on them, that's tyranny.  But then it leaves you wondering... then what do they object to in the current system?  People ALREADY consent to be governed.  If they don't like they're free to leave.  If they stay, they're voluntarily agreeing to abide by the rules.  So where's the objection and crying coming from?

Well what he actually means when he says that, is that all laws and rules must be voluntary: i.e. you only follow them if you want to.

Everyone with a functioning brain knows that voluntary laws aren't laws, they're suggestions.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
September 26, 2011, 08:25:05 PM
Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

Libertarians aren't against government as long as there is consent to be governed.

Fair enough, but in which universe will people agree on enough things for this to be practical?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:23:26 PM
Sorry, looked it up on Wikipedia. Manufacturing doesn't look that difficult. Go to any Middle Eastern or African country without a strong government and you'll likely be able to make it without a hastle. Doesn't look like there are international regulations for it, either, and a large compressed tank of liquid flourine gas with an attached explosive can be one hell of a deterrent.

Cool.  So what started out as an example of how easy it is to obtain dangerous gases has turned into a trip to the other side of the planet, has-mat suits, and etc.  Great example.  Roll Eyes

Isn't it pretty easy to obtain nukes if you live in an unregulated country? I mean things like global travel, hazmat suits, hazmat sensors, and specialized storage equipment are dirt cheap, aren't they? You guys said if I lived somewhere where there is no regulation, like, say, in Sealand, it would be easy for everyone to have nukes. Is it or isn't it?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
September 26, 2011, 08:20:37 PM
Not having a nuke doesn't mean you don't want a nuke.

Also, how do you know they don't have any? Seeing as most govts would frown on private citizens having any...wouldn't they keep it a secret?

As for crazy countries selling their nukes...why would they? If you were north korea, you could sell a nuke to the walton family and smuggle some food into the country, or you could hold on to it and say "fuck you" to the world that won't trade with you, and NK seems to be siding with the latter. Even Kim Jong-il is smart enough to realize using it would remove him from his ultimate power position in NK, and selling it would mean someone could then use it against him.

Either you are saying that current government regulations won't stop private citizens from owning nukes anyway, or you are describing how things will likely work in a libertarian country, too. Likely both.

I don't actually understand what you're trying to say here, could you elaborate?

I think the market's already as free as its going to get, and if people can indeed procure nukes, then your ideals may have already been met. My point was that people hide stuff and lie about having stuff, because there is advantage in both. I don't know enough about how a libertarian country would work to comment on that viability.

Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?
Argument going on here is government with legal regulation versus libertarian free-market anarchy with voluntary community-imposed regulation. I think you and I are in agreement that government regulation will not stop all instances of "bad," and libertarian organizations (companies, communities) would not sell nukes to random people or use them for same reasons that corrupt unregulated dictators won't.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
September 26, 2011, 08:17:41 PM
Sorry, looked it up on Wikipedia. Manufacturing doesn't look that difficult. Go to any Middle Eastern or African country without a strong government and you'll likely be able to make it without a hastle. Doesn't look like there are international regulations for it, either, and a large compressed tank of liquid flourine gas with an attached explosive can be one hell of a deterrent.

Cool.  So what started out as an example of how easy it is to obtain dangerous gases has turned into a trip to the other side of the planet, has-mat suits, and etc.  Great example.  Roll Eyes
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
September 26, 2011, 08:16:56 PM
Do libertarian countries have a government? isn't there an oxymoron in there somewhere?

Libertarians aren't against government as long as there is consent to be governed.
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