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Topic: IOTA - page 754. (Read 1473405 times)

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 25, 2015, 12:23:03 PM
Well, in iota you cannot say anything like "cumulative weight of X is enough for a tx to be considered confirmed", since the time enters the story. For the system to be secure on its own (i.e., without additional checkpoints or smth), the ability of the attacker to issue tx's must be much less than the "natural" flow of tx's in the system.  So, what you have in iota is rather statements like "if a tx got cumulative weight X by time T, then the probability that this tx can be annihilated is at most p, provided that the potential attacker's hashing power is at most h and the natural tx's flow in the system is at least m", see examples in the bottom of page 14 in the paper. In that "6 blocks confirmation rule" of Bitcoin there are some implicit assumptions as well, by the way.


Please translate that general math to some concrete examples for us, so we can compare likely confirmation delays.

Did you see the examples on p. 14 ?

Okay so qualitatively we just need to wait for some chain of subsequent TXs to reference the DAG node for our TX, and as long as the attacker's capacity to generate TXs is sufficiently low (perhaps similar to Bitcoin at less than 25 - 33% for selfish mining), then the double-spend probability will also be practically very low for tangles consensus. Indeed Bitcoin has similar probabilistic risk of double-spend:

https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

Three observations:

  • Confirmation is not instant, as it can be in other designs such as Lightning Networks (and also my design). Yet it will also be much faster then Bitcoin's block period. You are probably estimating at a few seconds at most assuming attacker's power is sufficiently low?
  • The attacker's power is given by his ability to incur TX fees relative to the total TX fees being paid for TXs. This is qualitatively different situation than PoW block chains, because in a tangle every payer has to incur the cost of security by paying higher TX fees (which I assume be burned so the coin is deflationary to 0 supply, unless you burn PoW hashes instead which is what I would advise). In Bitcoin all users pay the cost of mining security as well though either through debasement or TX fees, so it seems about the same. A potential advantage for a tangle is if you burn PoW hashes as I suggest, then every user is mining, unless they delegate this hash to a server. However appears neither tangle nor traditional PoW block chain can be immune to a 51% attack, whereas in my block chain scaling design I do claim this immunity (sorry to plug my work here but is necessary in order to point out relative strengths and weaknesses of all designs available to the crypto community).
  • No way to prevent double-spends in partitions of the network (no fault tolerance to network partitioning). I claim to solve this in my design and I think perhaps Lightning Network is also.

So overall I think this DAG stuff is an improvement over traditional PoW block chains in general, not just for IoT. But I do think I may have a superior design, but I am still analyzing to see what attributes the DAG might have that are superior. The elimination of the blocks and the aliasing error of chain reorganizations perhaps, but seems there are analogous issues in the DAG.

Please do not take my post as desiring to rain on your thread. I won't belabor my points. I am just trying to see where for example we might even collaborate if at all. Looking with an open mind. Cheers.

P.S. to the mathematician, kudos on working out all that math. I haven't made a decision to wrap my head around it yet. So pressed for time.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
October 25, 2015, 09:26:05 AM
Thanks. Wait for how the code "thinks" low and high.

It's just a parameter set by the user.
hero member
Activity: 589
Merit: 500
October 25, 2015, 08:54:17 AM
To "hire" miners for the race, can one send IOTA tokens to himself(the same address) or from one address to the other address he owns? To avoid double spending, tx weight cap will be set, so is the cap as small as possible? It seems that the cap is related to the tx flow rate, tx network topology and maybe other things, so is there any principle to set the cap manually or is it hard coded in the software?

Cap is set manually, each nodes decides if it wants to approve this transaction or not depending on its weight, too low and too high values will be filtered.

Thanks. Wait for how the code "thinks" low and high.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
October 25, 2015, 07:11:06 AM
I read this interesting thread, but did not find this info, maybe I did not see it sorry :

What is the speed of on/off-tangle payments ?

I mean the total maximum time for an operation to be 100% accepted/confirmed by the system ?
Are we speaking of 5-10 seconds, 1-30 minutes or hours ?

On-tangle payment speed depends on a lot of factors which numerical values are unknown yet. Off-tangle payment speed is around 1 second.
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 250
October 25, 2015, 07:05:48 AM
I read this interesting thread, but did not find this info, maybe I did not see it sorry :

What is the speed of on/off-tangle payments ?

I mean the total maximum time for an operation to be 100% accepted/confirmed by the system ?
Are we speaking of 5-10 seconds, 1-30 minutes or hours ?
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
TokenHouse decentralized cryptocurrency exchange
October 25, 2015, 06:45:28 AM
so, when will launch?

We aim for development being done by Christmas;)

There are a acouple of interesting altoins coming soon and IOTA is one of them  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1014
October 25, 2015, 03:22:24 AM
Watching. Really it looks interesting.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
October 25, 2015, 03:14:35 AM
so, when will launch?

We aim for development being done by Christmas;)
sr. member
Activity: 533
Merit: 251
October 24, 2015, 07:28:08 PM
so, when will launch?
sr. member
Activity: 376
Merit: 300
October 24, 2015, 07:26:04 PM

Please translate that general math to some concrete examples for us, so we can compare likely confirmation delays.

Did you see the examples on p. 14 ?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
October 24, 2015, 07:22:17 PM
Does Iota (DAG tangles) need to be only for IoT applications?

What advantage does it have over a normal block chain? Only the faster confirmation time (yet to be quantified) and not needing large blocks (yet all "full" nodes still pretty much need to see all transactions so that aspect of scaling isn't changed from Bitcoin)?

Iota can be used outside of IoT too.

Some advantages are listed here (that thread may be interesting) - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.12492916
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 24, 2015, 06:51:49 PM
Does Iota (DAG tangles) need to be only for IoT applications?

What advantage does it have over a normal block chain? Only the faster confirmation time (yet to be quantified) and not needing large blocks (yet all "full" nodes still pretty much need to see all transactions so that aspect of scaling isn't changed from Bitcoin)?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
October 24, 2015, 06:46:33 PM
What is "confirmation delay"? Time before a transaction is approved by another transaction?

Comparable to a 6 confirmation probability against double-spend in Bitcoin?

https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

How long does it take for a transaction to become "confirmed" such that it is very, very unlikely it can't be double-spent into the DAG?

I'll leave this question for the whitepaper author, his formulas scare me. Smiley

Protest, my formulas are always beautiful   Cheesy

Well, in iota you cannot say anything like "cumulative weight of X is enough for a tx to be considered confirmed", since the time enters the story. For the system to be secure on its own (i.e., without additional checkpoints or smth), the ability of the attacker to issue tx's must be much less than the "natural" flow of tx's in the system.  So, what you have in iota is rather statements like "if a tx got cumulative weight X by time T, then the probability that this tx can be annihilated is at most p, provided that the potential attacker's hashing power is at most h and the natural tx's flow in the system is at least m", see examples in the bottom of page 14 in the paper. In that "6 blocks confirmation rule" of Bitcoin there are some implicit assumptions as well, by the way.

"Everything must be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"  (c)
Smiley

Please translate that general math to some concrete examples for us, so we can compare likely confirmation delays.

I could work it out but I don't have time to dig into your math. You already know that math like the back of your hand. Please help us quantify in terms we all can readily compare to other coins.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
October 24, 2015, 12:52:40 PM
To "hire" miners for the race, can one send IOTA tokens to himself(the same address) or from one address to the other address he owns? To avoid double spending, tx weight cap will be set, so is the cap as small as possible? It seems that the cap is related to the tx flow rate, tx network topology and maybe other things, so is there any principle to set the cap manually or is it hard coded in the software?

Cap is set manually, each nodes decides if it wants to approve this transaction or not depending on its weight, too low and too high values will be filtered.
hero member
Activity: 589
Merit: 500
October 24, 2015, 12:50:10 PM

To "hire" miners for the race, can one send IOTA tokens to himself(the same address) or from one address to the other address he owns? To avoid double spending, tx weight cap will be set, so is the cap as small as possible? It seems that the cap is related to the tx flow rate, tx network topology and maybe other things, so is there any principle to set the cap manually or is it hard coded in the software?


hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
October 24, 2015, 11:18:14 AM
@iotatoken

productivity gains (due to automation etc.) never shared fairly in mankinds history so far.
comparing former to current states and arguing current state is better without having a
look whats on the table in total to share is just guessing, an assumption, not more.

This is why I have already stated several times in this thread that this is a societal issue. Basic Income is one solution to this. As joblessness goes up exponentially we will see Basic Income being proposed as a solution more and more.

Quote
however, i very welcome iota because boiled down iot will come and it has big potential,
bad and good, now or later, with or without us. so a good question is, should it be defined
and build with or without it's later users, for instance by closed global players only or does
an alternative build/dev make sense. yes or no?

this is a no brainer, at least for me. not much to loose here to support iota from my pov.


Great to see you support us Smiley
hero member
Activity: 597
Merit: 500
October 24, 2015, 11:11:37 AM
@iotatoken

productivity gains (due to automation etc.) never shared fairly in mankinds history so far.
comparing former to current states and arguing current state is better without having a
look whats on the table in total to share is just guessing, an assumption, not more.

however, i very welcome iota because boiled down iot will come and it has big potential,
bad and good, now or later, with or without us. so a good question is, should it be defined
and build with or without it's later users, for instance by closed global players only or does
an alternative build/dev make sense. yes or no?

this is a no brainer, at least for me. not much to loose here to support iota from my pov.
sr. member
Activity: 376
Merit: 300
October 24, 2015, 10:38:24 AM
What is "confirmation delay"? Time before a transaction is approved by another transaction?

Comparable to a 6 confirmation probability against double-spend in Bitcoin?

https://bitcoil.co.il/Doublespend.pdf

How long does it take for a transaction to become "confirmed" such that it is very, very unlikely it can't be double-spent into the DAG?

I'll leave this question for the whitepaper author, his formulas scare me. Smiley

Protest, my formulas are always beautiful   Cheesy

Well, in iota you cannot say anything like "cumulative weight of X is enough for a tx to be considered confirmed", since the time enters the story. For the system to be secure on its own (i.e., without additional checkpoints or smth), the ability of the attacker to issue tx's must be much less than the "natural" flow of tx's in the system.  So, what you have in iota is rather statements like "if a tx got cumulative weight X by time T, then the probability that this tx can be annihilated is at most p, provided that the potential attacker's hashing power is at most h and the natural tx's flow in the system is at least m", see examples in the bottom of page 14 in the paper. In that "6 blocks confirmation rule" of Bitcoin there are some implicit assumptions as well, by the way.

"Everything must be made as simple as possible, but not simpler"  (c)
Smiley
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
October 24, 2015, 09:51:12 AM

Automating human labour (eg. robotics) = More Freedom.

Automating human control and decision making (IoT) = Less Freedom.

You say 'As technology progresses' as if all technology is a single thing which all has the same effect and all technology is by its nature good, but I strongly disagree with that. Technology is like anything else, some inventions are a good idea and some are not. You cannot defend or promote a specific technology based on arguments pertaining to technology in general, somehow suggesting that technology is good and this is technology therefore this is good.

I admire your optimism though.


I never said that, I specifically said that no technology is black or white, it's nuanced. All technology can be used for both good and bad, from nukes to medicines. The reason I say 'technological progression' is that it is really all it is. There is no clear dividing line for when normal technology and the 'Internet-of-Things' begins, with the exception of connectivity criteria.

When it comes to automating human control I take it you refer to self-driving cars and the like, which will obviously be mandatory in a few decades to prevent auto-accidents. This will become a huge debate quickly, so let's stick to IoT that requires transactions in this thread, since that is what IOTA is about. But I'd love to join a deeper discussion on this topic at any time anywhere else.
hero member
Activity: 690
Merit: 505
Cryptorials.io
October 24, 2015, 09:10:52 AM

This is a business, you are free to leave whenever you want to. But today you can't if you don't have another job to go to, this is what I said earlier in the thread: today we live in a perpetual state of things that we HAVE TO DO despite of not WANTING to. The reason for this is the good ol' supply and demand that runs the world. My point is that as technology progresses the entire concept of supply will become more and more irrelevant.

We live in a universe with virtualy infinite resources. Now of course anno 2015, we are still stuck on planet earth with limited access to these resources, but as things become digital and automated there are certain things that we have virtually made infinite in supply. Even if you were the richest man on Earth 50 years ago, no amount could buy you a 70" OLED screen or direct access to all accumulated knowledge by mankind in the palm of your hand. Same goes for virtually everything. Electricity? Today we still need to get the majority of it through manual labour intensive means, but as solar, wind, nuclear, water etc. energy goes up, this too become more and more ubiquitous. As systems become more automated, people get more free time, more free time leads to more creativity and innovation as people cando what they really want. We ALL have more free time today than virtually anyone had in the 1990s. How we spend it is of course our own choice.

My point is that this will only continue and continue until we reach a point where we literally have an overabundance of everything (this is long term future, not short term). This will give us MORE freedom, not less, just like it always has.

The concern is of course for the 'transition period' that we are entering, where people lose their jobs when corporations optimize their supply chains, how will these people fare without jobs in this transition period? This is something that requires societal solutions.

Automating human labour (eg. robotics) = More Freedom.

Automating human control and decision making (IoT) = Less Freedom.

You say 'As technology progresses' as if all technology is a single thing which all has the same effect and all technology is by its nature good, but I strongly disagree with that. Technology is like anything else, some inventions are a good idea and some are not. You cannot defend or promote a specific technology based on arguments pertaining to technology in general, somehow suggesting that technology is good and this is technology therefore this is good.

I admire your optimism though.
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