Topic: [IOTA] Крипто-токен для "интернета вещей" (Internet-of-Things) - page 92. (Read 227004 times)

Chat-for-Ban [12:19 AM] 
let's consider the scenario where you connected to 10 full nodes and push transaction so fast that their bandwidth is completely consumed

Aleks Clark [12:20 AM] 
I don't need to consume their bandwidth
I need to consume their CPU

Chat-for-Ban [12:20 AM] 
bandwidth will be consumed on 100% long before CPU becomes bottleneck
it was growing at slower pace

Aleks Clark [12:21 AM] 
that makes things easier, not harder :stuck_out_tongue:

colin012 [12:21 AM] 
You will consume the bandwidth before the CPU.

Chat-for-Ban [12:21 AM] 
those 10 nodes are connected to 5 other nodes +  to you
their inbound bandwidth is fully consumed
assuming symmetric networking (1 Gbps for uploading and 1 Gbps for downloading)
those nodes can send only 20% of your txs
so Tier 2 nodes will get 20% of bandwidth occupied by your txs and 80% occupied by other's txs
do you see why it's so?

Aleks Clark [12:25 AM] 
yep
Aleks Clark [12:26 AM] 
and that doesn't even take into account network effects

colin012 [12:26 AM] 
Yes. So why is it 80% 20%?

Chat-for-Ban [12:26 AM] 
Because every Aleks' tx will be repeated 5 times

Aleks Clark [12:26 AM] 
well I'm sending 10*bw txs

Chat-for-Ban [12:27 AM] 
you can send even 1000*bw  - the bandwidth is fixed!
with 10x only 10% of your txs will go thru
with 1000x only 0.1%

Aleks Clark [12:27 AM] 
but I'm sending to 10 nodes
that's why I say 10*bw

Chat-for-Ban [12:28 AM] 
then Tier 3 will filter out most of your txs

Aleks Clark [12:28 AM] 
ah, that's the issue though
tier 3 still gets 20%
because tier 2 is 50 nodes

Chat-for-Ban [12:29 AM] 
it's not a problem, 80% of legit txs will still be going thru
it's like river flowing into a sea

Aleks Clark [12:29 AM] 
where do they come from tho?

Chat-for-Ban [12:29 AM] 
from other part of network

Aleks Clark [12:30 AM] 
so in your scenario, I'm connected to 20% of the network

Chat-for-Ban [12:30 AM] 
no, it was only 10 nodes
we don't know what part of network it is
In IOTA you can't connect to majority of the nodes


Paul H [12:31 AM]  Wait, did I miss where we stopped the infinite bandwidth part?

Chat-for-Ban [12:31 AM] yes

Aleks Clark [12:31 AM] @Chat-for-Ban why not?

Chat-for-Ban [12:31 AM] 
it's how IoT works
you can't connect to any node

Aleks Clark [12:31 AM] 
errr
I am an attacker performing a sybil attack, please explain why I can't connect?

Chat-for-Ban [12:32 AM] 
because you need to be omnipresent for that (= to be a God)

Aleks Clark [12:32 AM] 
so I would need some kind of....global network
that's interconnected by high speed fiber optics?

Chat-for-Ban [12:32 AM] 
it's not IoT

Aleks Clark [12:33 AM] 
but we're talking about full nodes here
they need to be on the internet :slightly_smiling_face:

Chat-for-Ban [12:33 AM] 
it's _another_ internet
internet of things

Aleks Clark [12:33 AM] 
@Chat-for-Ban the internet of things runs over the internet 

Chat-for-Ban [12:33 AM] 
unfortunatelly not

Aleks Clark [12:34 AM] 
so you're saying, full nodes, or a large proportion of full nodes, will not be performing IOTA transactions over the standard internet?

Chat-for-Ban [12:35 AM] 
right

Aleks Clark [12:35 AM] 
so where is this connectivity coming from?
cause this is pretty amazing

Chat-for-Ban [12:35 AM] 
radio

Aleks Clark [12:35 AM] 
radio, really?
so that's how the IOTA network runs today?

Chat-for-Ban [12:35 AM] 
we mimick IoT
by using mutual tethering

Aleks Clark [12:36 AM] 
and exactly which mesh protocols and routing protocols will you be using, and what exactly will prevent me from joining this amazing network?
this is exciting, I didn't know you guys were re-implementing the internet 

Chat-for-Ban [12:37 AM] 
IOTA will be that protocol

Aleks Clark [12:37 AM] 
errrrr

Chat-for-Ban [12:37 AM] 
do you know what IP is?
Internet Protocol

Aleks Clark [12:37 AM] 
giggity
I do that for a living


Chat-for-Ban [12:38 AM] 
add value transfers to it and you'll get IOTA running in IoT

Aleks Clark [12:38 AM] 
no
see, IP defines routing and addressing
it doesn't define physical access

Chat-for-Ban [12:38 AM] 
IOTA does it too
but non-deterministically

Aleks Clark [12:39 AM] 
please point to some snippet of documentation that shows how IOTA routes its own traffic
and, I mean, you're still talking layer 3
not 2 or 1

Chat-for-Ban [12:39 AM] 
we don't have documentation yet
still improving the things

Aleks Clark [12:40 AM] 
so your answer to network attacks is "we're going to reimplement the internet so that somehow people won't be able to join"?

Chat-for-Ban [12:41 AM] 
they'll be able to join with radio
with plain broadcasting
do you need address for broadcasting? no

Aleks Clark [12:41 AM] 
ahahahahahha
oh man
like....have you guys ever used mesh radio?
these are not new ideas, and there is a reason the planet isn't covered in mesh radio already :stuck_out_tongue:
the thing is, wireless mesh networking is not done on a large scale, because it doesn't work
you hit the shannon limit pretty fast

Chat-for-Ban [12:46 AM] 
how far signals of IoT should go from your point of view?

Aleks Clark [12:46 AM] 
in a mesh network they only go to the next hop
the shannon limit is the amount of data you can put on a given carrier

Chat-for-Ban [12:47 AM] 
what mesh network do you have in mind? there are 10s protocols
we use LiFi

Aleks Clark [12:48 AM] 
it doesn't matter, without things like backbone links and routing protocols, the total bandwidth available to the network approaches the total bandwidth of the carrier medium
let's say you're doing 14-channel 5ghz wifi, and you get 10Gbps
the entire network will only be able to reliably carry 10Gbps
you can't just handwave that

Chat-for-Ban [12:50 AM] 
I can just use 10'000 Gbps

Aleks Clark [12:50 AM] 
no!
because your radio doesn't have that bandwidth unless it costs $10,000,000
RF is not easy
and then you'd have to get a license for the spectrum

Chat-for-Ban [12:51 AM] 
well, "radio" was in general, I'm talking about LiFi where you don't need license and your bandwidth is 1000 times wider

Aleks Clark [12:51 AM] 
which you couldn't unless it was X-Band or something

Aleks Clark [12:56 AM] 
so basically what you're saying is, IOTA will be a viable product, once someone solves the problems inherent in a worldwide self-configuring mesh network that runs off of visible light :smile:

Chat-for-Ban [12:56 AM] 
no, I don't say that

colin012 [12:56 AM] 
Just have multiple LiFi nodes interconnected through wires.

Aleks Clark [12:56 AM] 
that's all I really needed to know I guess...
@colin012 routing....


Chat-for-Ban [12:57 AM] 
Routing?


Aleks Clark [12:57 AM] 
once again, back to the internet


Chat-for-Ban [12:57 AM] 
Nay, mesh nets are more interesting
you said "routing"


Aleks Clark [12:57 AM] 
yea
mesh networks still need to route


Chat-for-Ban [12:57 AM] 
what percentage of bandwidth is consumed by service messages required for routing?


colin012 [12:57 AM] 
Not necessarily. More like switching.


Chat-for-Ban [12:57 AM] 
ballpark number


Aleks Clark [12:58 AM] 
not much, but you need protocols for routing :slightly_smiling_face:


Chat-for-Ban [12:58 AM] 
really? what about gossip protocol then?
what kind of routing does it use?


Aleks Clark [12:59 AM] 
full-mesh networking doesn't scale because the route tables have to be propagated to all participants


Chat-for-Ban [12:59 AM] 
see?
you start getting closer to the point where you'll see that gossip is the only viable solution if we don't want 99% of traffic to be consumed by service messages


Aleks Clark [1:00 AM] 
errr no
everyone still has to get the route announcements
you need to know which path to take to reach a given node

how do you ensure your message goes past that node?


Lewis Freiberg 
[1:02 AM] 
Like if your threw it


[1:02] 
And you missed the node?


Aleks Clark [1:02 AM] 
sure


[1:02] 
happens all the time


colin012 [1:02 AM] 
Send it to multiples?



Chat-for-Ban [1:02 AM] 
> everyone still has to get the route announcements
So, why would we need route announcements?


Aleks Clark [1:03 AM] 
so your little IOT node has to listen to all the traffic on the mesh, ever, and parse it, to ensure its messages are going through?
this is completely bogus


Chat-for-Ban [1:04 AM] 
> so your little IOT node has to listen to all the traffic on the mesh
no

Aleks Clark [1:04 AM] 
and it's the only way IOTA will be "secure" apparently
nobody has any idea about what a world-wide network actually needs

Chat-for-Ban [1:04 AM] 
I answered "no"


Aleks Clark [1:04 AM] 
it's just hand-waving an woo
[1:05] 
I'm out

..........

Aleks Clark [2:58 AM] let me put it this way...without these rules we're discussing (scanning, repeats, stopping with 50% odds), can IOTA work at all?

Chat-for-Ban [2:58 AM] yes, if we mimick IoT on Inernet

Aleks Clark [2:59 AM] 
because earlier I demonstrated how tangle was vulnerable to network attacks, and you answered with "but it will not run on the internet so you can't attack"
so either argue on this basis, where you're replacing the internet, or don't

Chat-for-Ban [2:59 AM] bandwidth between nodes is capped, so it's applicable to IOTA over Internet too

Aleks Clark [3:00 AM] no it's not, you have no control whatsoever over what I choose to send to your nodes

Chat-for-Ban [3:00 AM] 
full nodes are connected with 1 Gbps links

Aleks Clark [3:00 AM] 
1gbps is trivial
ever mitigated an actual DDOS?

Chat-for-Ban [3:00 AM] 
yes, and you'll bring Tier 1 nodes down
maybe even Tier 2
but Tier 3+ will be safe

Aleks Clark [3:01 AM] 
why, are they not connnected to the internet? are they not getting relayed the transactions?

Chat-for-Ban [3:01 AM] 
they are connected physically
but firewall doesn't allow packets to go thru

Aleks Clark [3:01 AM] 
oh, so you need centralized control nodes?

Chat-for-Ban [3:01 AM] 
we don't

Aleks Clark [3:01 AM] 
what you're describing with tiers is

Chat-for-Ban [3:02 AM] 
it's number of hops between you and other nodes
min number of hops

Aleks Clark [3:02 AM] 
there are no hops on the internet, I can point directly to those nodes

Chat-for-Ban [3:02 AM] 
not in IOTA network

Aleks Clark [3:02 AM] 
pick one!
stop flipping back and forth

Chat-for-Ban [3:02 AM] 
pick one what?

Aleks Clark [3:03 AM] 
internet-emulated IoT, or IOTA network

Chat-for-Ban [3:03 AM] 
IOTA network
over Internet
aka IoT-mimicked network over Internet
you can't connect to an arbitrary node (edited)


Aleks Clark [3:04 AM] 
no?
why not?


Chat-for-Ban [3:04 AM] 
it's like bluetooth
you need to know PIN


Fahad Sheikh [3:04 AM] 
mutual tethering.