Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings - page 138. (Read 658701 times)

Sure, you have your fees and then you'll have your forex/gold/securities trading room. But I'm fairly sure you cannot make 50% pa on an institution-sized trading account. If you did you could join the Soros club.

As previously stated, don't waste your time trying to please these people. If they don't believe in it they have no stake anyway.

As previously stated, we are going to be generating many streams of revenue, our success is not just based on the appreciation of BTC.

Like ex-trader I'd ideally like to see this 'bank' do well, but the business model is far too fragile, from what we've been told, to give a decent chance for that success to happen. You admit the big boys could eat you for lunch and they only thing stopping them would be if you quickly became strong enough. Well by that you might mean if BTC continues it's upwards trajectory after you launch, because from what I can see no matter how many Cypriot householders deposit with you, a 40% sustained dip in BTC could potentially ruin the company (and wipe out those savings). You can't base your success on a guaranteed appreciation (within neobee forcast margins) of BTC. Not when manipulation of the currency (which would be so easy with a market cap of just 3Billion) is so likely by your competitors.

Best of luck with it but you need to realise your current model is not very secure in the cut-throat market you are entering and do something about it. You need to create that firewall that will mean a huge dip in btc value will not ruin neobee - and thus prevent your competitors from attacking you on that front.

Without that protection you are gambling essentially. And your investors and customers need to realise your current strategy is extremely high risk and the loss of everything will be a real risk in the initial stages.

Investor caution:

In summary - do not put all of your eggs in this basket. Lloyds (LBG) just lost another 440Million GBP in the last quarter, everything with 'Bank' written on it does not automatically turn to gold. Far from it.

I agree somewhat with what ex trader says, but I think it's also worth noting that most people aren't or weren't aware that if they all go to the bank to withdraw all their money at the same time, the bank will not be able to pay them. Also they didn't know that by just keeping money in the bank, they were at risk of having it seized.
In the case of neobee, if the currency backing their deposit completely fails, they will lose their money.  I don't think it will happen, I doubt many here do, and surely anyone depositing won't either, or they shouldn't deposit.

Ex trader, that makes more sense. The problem with what you were posting was you were asking leading questions where you either knew or should have known the answer. Much better to post your precise issues rather than try and 'prove' something through leading questions and potentially (in my view) misrepresentation.

Risks on customers: now that is a fair question. How wil the risks be disclosed? How do they compare to other banks in Cyprus? How will customers be persuaded to buy into it? What protection do customers have? Can the govt take money from here just as with other banks?

I believe they can have actual Bitcoins however. It's really about whether they choose a bitcoin denominated  or a euro denominated account. In many ways that's the point about it being in Cyprus where people don't trust their euros not to get stolen. Bitcoins are not debt based so as long as the bank is properly run and nothing really bad happens to bitcoin, I assume that customers will be able to move their Bitcoins out with ease, unless it's a fixed time account. How many Bitcoins they have will vary if it's euro linked. They are multisig accounts if I remember correctly.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Making the account options clear to customers is going to be tricky and I too will be interested in the fine detail.

I don't disagree that this is a tough ask hence why I didn't invest at the IPO price. However, to keep the conversation away from the usual trolling, I think it better to engage more positively rather than try to make it out it's just an exchange under another guise. It really isn't. That doesn't mean they aren't exposed to exchange rate risk but that does not make it an exchange.

Yes they are, however not strictly enforced. There has been announcements about their removal in full by January.

It was stopped with less than 2 hours to spare, my source the team of lawyers fighting against it.

As you know the inital proposal could not be carried out since it broke the law, which required up to 100k to be protected, which is why the money was only seized from over 100k deposits.

http://www.centralbank.gov.cy/nqcontent.cfm?a_id=8158&lang=en

Can you explain the 100k "insurance", how would that insurance work when the initial proposal during the bail-ins was set at 6.9% of everything over €1k....the insurance was declared a fallacy because if it was worth anything, the proposal wouldn't have been made.

To answer in short:

I have no particular desire to reveal that much about myself other than yes, I have been a trader (for top global banks) but am now an investor only. I also have a lot of experience in banking products and bank balance sheets. I happen to know a fair bit about bank regulations, liquidity, maturity transformation and interest rate risk/currency risks. Risk in financial business is my life, I spent 25 years doing it, so it's one of few products in Bitcoin world I have perhaps some relevant experience in. As for the name, I had to think of something.

As for my motive frankly it's a mid muddled. I really want these guys to succeed, I think they're making a great effort in perhaps the most receptive market-place and had they stuck to Bitcoins only then I would really have few comments. However I believe their main product is misguided and either ends up with huge risks on them or the customer and I also find it hard to believe that anyone will be placing any money into this product which will not have the €100k protection that normal bank accounts have and that has very little upside. Nor does it even allow them to have actual Bitcoins. I also think it unlikely they'll get through regulatory approvals with this product.

I was hoping they might realise this before they launch and find it doesn't work and ruins all their other good efforts. I think I'm a lone voice in this though, so it's probably time for me to stop posting on this now and just let fate takes it course.

This is most certainly the case.

ex-trader, you can go back to the first handful of pages in this thread and see with the most basic of reading comprehension skills, that the questions you've been asking have been answered again and again.

+1

Anybody remember Nokia having a market share 50%+
Things change quickly, even quicker in btc world.

This & DarkWallet (my opinion, apologies if you do not want to be mentioned in par with them, but this is how I see it) are the biggest Bull testicles in the cryptos ecosystem for a long time now.

Kudos for being so bullish man!

We are going to be very clear to the customers what we offer;

Pegged Wallets, their funds are held in BTC in their own wallet, we will balance their wallet on rate increases and decreases to ensure the BTC is always equal to the amount of Euros their balance should be, the benefits of this is the cryptographic storage of their money.

BTC Wallets, is Bitcoin in its full glory up and down movements just a simple user interface so the customer doesn't have to use a 34 character public key (if they want to use it in raw format, they can do).

Time Based Wallets, We will provide the protection from negative movements and give the customer a % of any growth, in return for keeping those BTC hoarded for a specified period of time.

Each customer will have a URL to check their BTC balance live on the blockchain.

I have been extremely clear about the above throughout, I have also releasing more and more information regarding additional services that will be generating revenue for Neo & Bee.

Yes the big boys could try and destroy us, but how long will it take for them to stop laughing at the little guy, long enough for us to be strong enough to resist? If Bitcoin doesn't take the step towards the true mass adoption, then it will eventually fizzle out as a fad.

Ever heard of propaganda and the term 'secret agenda'? The ECB like any other bank are running scared from BTC. The report was not positive, it was ominous. The future is regulation or condemnation or criminalisation.

I'm not saying BTC banks wont be able to do business in the future, (the ECHR should guarantee that in Europe) but the likes of NeoBee with it's fatal business model will not be allowed to succeed when the financial sector elite can offer their own BTC infrastructure and profit hugely from it themselves. You think they will sit back and watch their source of capital migrate over to BTC banks and shrug their shoulders?

HsBc have just be fined 2Billion USD for laundering terrorist/drug/mafia money around the world. Come on, they are absolutely ruthless, and will back middle eastern terrorists, russian mafia, mexican drug lords to prop up their own balance sheets and shareholders divs.

You need to see the distinction between the elected political leaders with their often idealised intent/need for public appeal/propaganda, and the real shakers and movers that we might call the global financial elite. When 'Germany' takes a positive stance on btc what does that mean? It might simply be a Government PR ploy to save public criticism while behind the scenes they plan an attack on btc. 'We have no objections to btc - honest'. And if it is an honest position in practical terms it might not amount to much. In the UK for example with some of the recently 'nationalised' banks (UK Government major shareholder after bail-out) the board are giving themselves outlandish bonuses despite public criticism from the Government (major shareholder!). So what control over long-term strategies does the German finance minister have over Bundesbank anyway? Possibly a bit in this instance as the Board are partly assigned by the German gov but the sovereign banks are only half of the picture anyway.

Lets meet Europes biggest operator The Santander Group. 1.2 Trillion Euro in assests with over 100million customers, 43Billion Euro revenue in 2012.

Can anyone suggest a way in which they could destroy NeoBee?
And suggest a motive for that destruction?

Lets discuss.

NEOBEE is securing people's money in bitcoin for the most part, not letting people buy straight Bitcoins. They are offering regular bank accounts, some of which are interest bearing fixed term savings accounts. It's quite particular to Cyprus at first, where regular banks are simply not trusted.

I'm not saying they aren't also allowing people to buy Bitcoins directly as well, just explaining the core banking model, instead of using a central bank. Is people's money really any safer there than a regular bank? Could the govt claim it? I am not sure.

The denomination is in euros, so the bitcoin balance will go up or down depending on the exchange rate. If you buy Bitcoins themselves or if they offer direct bitcoin accounts, it will be vice versa. I do think some people may struggle with this concept from my bitcoin business experience. A brief anecdote - an American buying our bundle just couldn't cope with the whole concept of exchange rates. He continually said Americans were being ripped off by Europeans/bitcoiners fixing how much a dollar was worth in order to make money. He did not get it at all.

I pointed out some of the big risks which are what people should be evaluating. Also add in the management team who are key to success of the project. Getting the project out of Cyprus could prove difficult too as then VIs may well get in the way, just not by wasting 100s of millions on bitcoin in order to tank it.

Ex trader, your posts are somewhat bizarre nit picking of potential marketing material. If NEOBEE come out and mis-sell accounts then that's a marketing failure, it's got nothing to do with their business model. That's why the whole conversation makes no sense.

Critique NEOBEE for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. The oracle debate was another whacky one. It's quite clear that few people here have never invested or been invested in professionally. In companies I mean, not trading shares. You have to look at the business model, the people, the strategy, the risks, the ecosystem, the regulatory environment, the competition, the market, etc, and you have to do it with a realistic eye rather than an idealistic, politically or personally motivated one.

Note I have some shares in NEOBEE but only because I picked them up near half price. I consider them a risky venture but worth the punt I took considering the share price at the time. I wish them a lot of luck, however, because this is the sort of project bitcoin needs.

Dear ex-trader,  I'm a small shareholder who doesn't have a very good grasp on the NEOBEE business model and as such am easily influenced.  I've been lurking on this thread since it started and you alone are the reason I haven't invested more of my money.  The thing is, my gut is telling me that I may be missing a trick and should commit to a larger investment, however your posts always stop me from making that leap of faith.

So I have just a couple of questions for you.

Why the name ex-trader?  If you used to be a professional trader as I seem to recall you saying, is your choice of name not rather egotistical?  If so, for me, it somewhat weakens your case.

Why the change in language from your early posts to more recent ones?  Your early posts felt impartial, professional and lacking motive, yet your recent posts have an agenda and sometimes seem borderline fud.  Are you the same person or has the account been passed on to someone else?

If perhaps you have a motive which wasn't clear on the early pages of this thread would you share please?  What have you to gain or lose?

I would appreciate an honest and open response to these 'off-topic' questions because I genuinely can't work you out myself and as such am floating around NEOBEE limbo.

Thanks in advance.  

1+ didn´t have time to follow this discussion, as there are so many posts here, but I have similar doubts.