[IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings - page 141.

ex-trader

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Quote from: bittymitty on October 31, 2013, 04:19:31 PM

Where in the prospectus does it say NEOBEE will withhold the information about the business model? The customer has a choice in having a BTC or EUR denominated account. The customer is going to be offered a fixed interest rate on EUR denominated account so they will benefit from a BTC/EUR increase.

Go back and read the prospectus(hint:this is where the shareholders are informed of the business model).

Show me exactly in the prospectus where it says that retail customers will be told explicitly that their money will be invested in BTC, but that the majority of the upside is kept by Neo, but in the event of BTC falling that Neo will be unable to pay them back.

Customers are not stupid and they'll work this out over time as Neo keep 'adjusting' how many Bitcoins they own via a nonsensical 'peg'......

bittymitty

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Quote from: ex-trader on October 31, 2013, 04:11:26 PM

Skoutz,

1. I'm not jealous at all. I think the BTC banking and payments aspects of Neo is a great idea and I wish them the best of success. However the only aspect I take issue with is taking Euro deposits, holding them in Bitcoins and not telling the customer or the shareholders of the risks involved, or being clear that the customer does not benefit from the upside. I also think it is illegal from a financial institutions governance point of view and will be very surprised if their regulators, accountants and VC investors allow them to operate like this.

2. Regarding dividends, they do not have to be realised as cash to be paid out. Plenty of companies make profits that are declared but not necessarily received as cash and even borrow loans with which to pay dividends, provided they have sufficient declared profits.

Where in the prospectus does it say NEOBEE will withhold the information about the business model? The customer has a choice in having a BTC or EUR denominated account. The customer is going to be offered a fixed interest rate on EUR denominated account so they will benefit from a BTC/EUR increase.

Go back and read the prospectus(hint:this is where the shareholders are informed of the business model).

ex-trader

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Activity: 298

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Skoutz,

I'm not jealous at all.

I think the BTC banking and payments aspects of Neo is a great idea and I wish them the best of success. However the only aspect I take issue with is taking Euro deposits, holding them in Bitcoins and not telling the customer or the shareholders of the risks involved, or being clear that the customer does not benefit from the upside. I also think it is illegal from a financial institutions governance point of view and will be very surprised if their regulators, accountants and VC investors allow them to operate like this.

bittymitty

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Activity: 294

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Quote from: Skoutz on October 31, 2013, 12:30:27 PM

Let me clarify something on dividends.

Under British Law (and Cypriot Law which is based on the British - Cyprus was a British colony up to 1960), a company can pay dividends out of accumulated REALISED profits.

If the value of BTC rises, and hence the value of BTC held by LMB Holdings rises in terms of the EUR, this is an UNREALISED profit for the company and a dividend cannot be paid; payment of a dividend by the company would be ILLEGAL.

Please, those that do not really know the facts, it is better not to throw in the discussion unsubstantiated claims because they confuse, instead of clarifying, things.

I am not an expert on law but according to this definition http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/06/realizedprofitsvsunrealizedprofits.asp
Realised profits are when you convert shares to cash. I don't know if you are aware but BTC is a currency and not a share. You do not need to convert BTC to toilet paper fiat as it is already a currency. Also dividends are paid out as BTC and not fiat. Maybe you should get a better understanding of Bitcoin before you make comments about it.

This is a document about the law http://www.icaew.com/~/media/Files/Technical/technical-releases/legal-and-regulatory/TECH-02-10-Guidance-on-realised-and-distributable-profits-under-the-Companies-Act-2006.pdf
its only 168 pages if anyone wants to have a read....

Peter Lambert

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 500

It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: Skoutz on October 31, 2013, 12:30:27 PM

Let me clarify something on dividends.

Under British Law (and Cypriot Law which is based on the British - Cyprus was a British colony up to 1960), a company can pay dividends out of accumulated REALISED profits.

If the value of BTC rises, and hence the value of BTC held by LMB Holdings rises in terms of the EUR, this is an UNREALISED profit for the company and a dividend cannot be paid; payment of a dividend by the company would be ILLEGAL.

Please, those that do not really know the facts, it is better not to throw in the discussion unsubstantiated claims because they confuse, instead of clarifying, things.

Are profits calculated in bitcoins or in euros? Are the profits realized when they trade the euros for bitcoins and then can pay dividends in bitcoin, or are the profits realized when they trade bitcoins for euros, and then they have to trade them back to pay them out as dividends?

Skoutz

member

Activity: 109

Merit: 10

Let me clarify something on dividends.

Under British Law (and Cypriot Law which is based on the British - Cyprus was a British colony up to 1960), a company can pay dividends out of accumulated REALISED profits.

If the value of BTC rises, and hence the value of BTC held by LMB Holdings rises in terms of the EUR, this is an UNREALISED profit for the company and a dividend cannot be paid; payment of a dividend by the company would be ILLEGAL.

Please, those that do not really know the facts, it is better not to throw in the discussion unsubstantiated claims because they confuse, instead of clarifying, things.

Skoutz

member

Activity: 109

Merit: 10

Quote from: uhoh on October 30, 2013, 01:37:05 PM

Quote from: jbest8283 on October 30, 2013, 01:34:53 PM

Quote from: bittymitty on October 29, 2013, 07:46:37 PM

Bitcoin community is used to getting regular weekly dividends from miner stocks and including a dividend helped them A LOT with selling their shares.

If this is the case, the Bitcoin community needs to grow up and realize that if they want Bitcoin to succeed as a currency then it needs to act like a currency. Hence, businesses need to be real businesses getting funded properly. If it fails, it fails. That's the risk of investing, especially when you are essentially investing in two things at once. We can't just sit on our hands and expect them to pay out dividends because we are used to it...relax...it will come.

+1

VERY WELL SAID.

Skoutz

member

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Seems ex-trader is going to have a heart attack in case Neo Bee succeeds Wink

Jealousy is a bad thing and it stinks...

kingcrimson

legendary

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Quote from: ex-trader on October 30, 2013, 03:35:02 PM

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

This is the 50th time you're posting this... but I think you are too focused on price. I think you have a western bias and are sheltered from what is happening around the world. Just look at the China situation right now. Lots of money pouring in. Same thing will happen once NeoBee opens.

When there is a bank run, it is caused by total loss of confidence. As long as fundamentals of Bitcoin remain strong, price itself will not lead to loss of confidence. Its inherent properties are simply too great to ignore. Similar to the gold crash this year, people are just buying more because nothing about gold has changed.

bittymitty

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There are ways you can hedge your bets and have stop loss orders in a downward market. How do current hedge funds and day traders limit losses? Being an ex-trader what did you do in a bear market?

ex-trader

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Quote from: JimiQ84 on October 30, 2013, 04:04:05 PM

BTC doubling it's value isn't considered a profit. Profit comes from fees from customers.

No - the entire business case is based upon assumptions they can take deposits in Euro and invest them in BTC and BTC goes up. I suggest you read it fully, its fairly scary once you start to consider what happens if BTC doesn't go up or goes down. Funnily enough thats not shown in the plan. Just the idea that they'll be able to cover these losses through some special secret 'trading'......

bittymitty

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Quote from: JimiQ84 on October 30, 2013, 04:04:05 PM

Quote from: ex-trader on October 30, 2013, 03:35:02 PM

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

BTC doubling it's value isn't considered a profit. Profit comes from fees from customers.

Yes this will be considered a profit as the customer deposits are denominated in EUR not BTC

JimiQ84

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Quote from: ex-trader on October 30, 2013, 03:35:02 PM

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

BTC doubling it's value isn't considered a profit. Profit comes from fees from customers.

bittymitty

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

I think they will be balancing the BTC/EUR accounts daily but paying out dividends quarterly. So they will have a long period to balance the books and derived profits. Also keep in mind that their business model is based on continued deposits so a drop in price just mean they can buy more BTC at that time. If you look at the BTC/EUR price over a long period it is a lot more stable then over the weekly dips and spikes.

A sustained drop over several months in BTC/EUR price will be the biggest challenge for NEOBEE. It will then come down to how much BTC profit they are making from their other services like business accounts, BTC trading and insurance services.

I agree it will be interesting to see the statements overtime and to where BTC is going over the next few years.

ex-trader

sr. member

Activity: 298

Merit: 250

Wow this gets better.

So let me get this right?

Assume in one quarter that BTC doubles (as happens a lot). Neo makes a big profit on all the BTC it holds against Euro deposits and is therefore required to pay it all out to the shareholders.

Next quarter BTC halves again (as has also happened countless times). Neo is now insolvent as it only has half the money in Euros it needs to cover it's euro depositors.

I'll say it again the 'take euros invest in BTC' model does not work and I cannot wait to see what the accounting statements look like through time...............

This is either a scam or a company that completely does not understand financial risks and balance sheets. I think given the efforts so far it's the latter. The problem is that enthusiasm does not overcome a flawed financial model.

bittymitty

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Dividends are paid quarterly if they make a profit... and the IPO ends on 30th Nov 2013

klee

legendary

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When does the IPVO end?

Herp

sr. member

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Quote from: jbest8283 on October 30, 2013, 01:34:53 PM

Quote from: bittymitty on October 29, 2013, 07:46:37 PM

Bitcoin community is used to getting regular weekly dividends from miner stocks and including a dividend helped them A LOT with selling their shares.

If this is the case, the Bitcoin community needs to grow up and realize that if they want Bitcoin to succeed as a currency then it needs to act like a currency. Hence, businesses need to be real businesses getting funded properly. If it fails, it fails. That's the risk of investing, especially when you are essentially investing in two things at once. We can't just sit on our hands and expect them to pay out dividends because we are used to it...relax...it will come.

Haha. That was cold but true.

+1

Doesn't change the fact, though, that promising dividends helped a lot with their sale. It would be lame to not to execute promptly the "protection plan" giving 100% of profits to public shareholders until 0.0035/share is reached.

Not doing so would undermine future sale of stock, which doesn't have to be issued but they do have 40% in reserve which could hit the exchanges and they could also issue bonds. Remember they are no strangers to bonds. That Xbond was converted to shares at 0.0025/share.

Also, regarding issuing more shares, remember that things change. Current plans could go out the window one or two years from now, hence the expression "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

uhoh

hero member

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Circle gets the Square

Quote from: jbest8283 on October 30, 2013, 01:34:53 PM

Quote from: bittymitty on October 29, 2013, 07:46:37 PM

Bitcoin community is used to getting regular weekly dividends from miner stocks and including a dividend helped them A LOT with selling their shares.

If this is the case, the Bitcoin community needs to grow up and realize that if they want Bitcoin to succeed as a currency then it needs to act like a currency. Hence, businesses need to be real businesses getting funded properly. If it fails, it fails. That's the risk of investing, especially when you are essentially investing in two things at once. We can't just sit on our hands and expect them to pay out dividends because we are used to it...relax...it will come.

+1

jbest8283

newbie

Activity: 38

Merit: 0

Quote from: bittymitty on October 29, 2013, 07:46:37 PM

Bitcoin community is used to getting regular weekly dividends from miner stocks and including a dividend helped them A LOT with selling their shares.

If this is the case, the Bitcoin community needs to grow up and realize that if they want Bitcoin to succeed as a currency then it needs to act like a currency. Hence, businesses need to be real businesses getting funded properly. If it fails, it fails. That's the risk of investing, especially when you are essentially investing in two things at once. We can't just sit on our hands and expect them to pay out dividends because we are used to it...relax...it will come.

Topic: [IPVO] [Multiple Exchanges] Neo & Bee - LMB Holdings - page 141. (Read 658701 times)