We listen to your ideas now. However, you could be the Queen of Sheba and we’d still say they were misguided.
My ideas largely align with theymos' ideas. (e.g. here). Main thing being that DT needs to change or go. How am I misguided?
Topic: Is the Default trust system still working/active? - page 2. (Read 22791 times)
My ideas largely align with theymos' ideas. (e.g. here). Main thing being that DT needs to change or go. How am I misguided?
Diluting the DT list (=adding more DT users) would reduce that PITA.
You keep saying that and you even "applied" to DT yourself but in the last year or so you posted around a dozen trust ratings, 2 (perhaps 2.5) of which are retaliatory and others have no reference links. That's a horrible contribution to the trust system and you should not be anywhere near DT nor have any say in how it should be changed.
If I was Satoshi, would you then listen to these ideas I present?
Look at the first post of this thread. See what makes this DT list and what the DT users do.
DT should not be a group that requires whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
We listen to your ideas now. However, you could be the Queen of Sheba and we’d still say they were misguided.
I'm not putting words in your mouth? Wtf. Is that a default line you open up with when you want to make an insulting reply?
whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Where did I say that I'm looking for that? Rhetorical question. I didn't say that.
My ratings are not sent because of received feedback itself. Hence not retaliatory, I've told you this already, but you keep calling them retaliatory.
LOL yeah these ratings completely accidentally just happened after you got into fights with these users.
Reference is not required. Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing up it, as the same applies to DT.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing up it, as the same applies to DT.
I'm not saying you can't use the trust system that way. Knock yourself out. Anything short of massive spam is allowed. I'm saying you shouldn't be in DT and your opinion on the subject is quite useless due to your abuse and bias. I don't expect you to see it that way, so carry on.
"Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable" -suchmoon
Give an example??
Give an example??
Are you drunk? Edit: LOL, don't answer that. I just realized who I replied to. Another moron unable to figure out who said what, easy to get confused.
LOL although you can not see the perfect irony in that last statement. I find it quite hilarious. Thank you again for all the smiles you bring me.
Typical suchmoon tactic.
1. yes I was skimming this thread whilst writing out another reply to another thread. So all you need to say is
I did not say that it was anduck have a look.
I will say okay yes. I agree it was not you. I take back that you said it. There you go.... answered later in post scroll down.
NOW though.
You seem to have read my entire post but like suchmoon always does is just ignore the central and most important point that he does not want to answer.
So I will ask him again so there can be no missing it.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT THE SYSTEMS OF MERIT AND TRUST GIVEN A MANDATE AND CRITERIA SO THAT THEY PROVIDE RELIABLE, VALUABLE DATA THAT IS FAIRLY APPLIED TO ALL.
WHY WOULD YOU NOT WANT TO SEE THESE SYSTEMS IMPROVED?
Keep in mind your post regarding good poster is meaningless without clear definition.
Now feel free to accept my public apology that I misread that other quote as yours . I still think that is wrong... if you can not say exactly why they got red trust you must not leave red trust especially in such a subjective system. So I am in agreement on that part.
After you have done that answer my central point in uppercase above. I am guessing you will NOT.
Anduck stop being such a pussy as soon as suchmoon confronts you. This is not derailing the topic. These are examples of the DT system in action. It should all be discussed here not on PM. Well that is if you believe you are telling the truth and that is it relevant to the discussion in the manner you are presenting it does. Of course alone they are only individual experiences but if true can demonstrate that improvements can and must be made.
If you think you are right. Then no need to slink away to PM. If you are right you are right. Simple as that. Transparent open discussion is key to this board.
Derailing how?? how much more relevant can prime examples concerning the DT system be to this thread? we are discussing if we can improve the system right?
Suchmoon has no real power on an open discussion board because nobody does ..only the truth has power. If you get red trust, if you get no merits if you get banned. It does not really matter because you still exist and so does the truth so it can never stop being presented either by yourself or by close friends who can join who will insist on the truth being heard.
Now I agree being bogged down in to much anecdotal individual experience is not giving the full picture if you are presenting something you believe is true and both relevant to the topic then no need to slink off to PM just because suchmoon turns up. We need to find the issues and devise a solution to these issues.
Reference is not required. Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing up it, as the same applies to DT.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing up it, as the same applies to DT.
I'm not saying you can't use the trust system that way. Knock yourself out. Anything short of massive spam is allowed. I'm saying you shouldn't be in DT and your opinion on the subject is quite useless due to your abuse and bias. I don't expect you to see it that way, so carry on.
See the trust system guidelines here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2221664
I'm not putting words in your mouth? Wtf. Is that a default line you open up with when you want to make an insulting reply?
whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Where did I say that I'm looking for that? Rhetorical question. I didn't say that.
To me, it sounds like you're implying that DT'ers need to have loads of rating activity / spam/scambusting. So you brought up how I have only "around a dozen trust ratings" and therefore not qualified. Why did you mention my "around a dozen" ratings when you talked about how I am not qualified, if you don't mean that more ratings activity is needed for DT member?
If you want to answer, you can answer me via PM. We should stop derailing this thread.
I'm not putting words in your mouth? Wtf. Is that a default line you open up with when you want to make an insulting reply?
whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Where did I say that I'm looking for that? Rhetorical question. I didn't say that.
My ratings are not sent because of received feedback itself. Hence not retaliatory, I've told you this already, but you keep calling them retaliatory.
LOL yeah these ratings completely accidentally just happened after you got into fights with these users.
Reference is not required. Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing up it, as the same applies to DT.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing up it, as the same applies to DT.
I'm not saying you can't use the trust system that way. Knock yourself out. Anything short of massive spam is allowed. I'm saying you shouldn't be in DT and your opinion on the subject is quite useless due to your abuse and bias. I don't expect you to see it that way, so carry on.
"Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable" -suchmoon
Give an example??
Give an example??
Are you drunk? Edit: LOL, don't answer that. I just realized who I replied to. Another moron unable to figure out who said what, easy to get confused.
Diluting the DT list (=adding more DT users) would reduce that PITA.
You keep saying that and you even "applied" to DT yourself but in the last year or so you posted around a dozen trust ratings, 2 (perhaps 2.5) of which are retaliatory and others have no reference links. That's a horrible contribution to the trust system and you should not be anywhere near DT nor have any say in how it should be changed.
Who says? you? LOL
I would say ANY person fighting against the systems being improved to be fairer, more reliable and producing valuable data for analysis are the people that should be kept away from trust positions in the first place.
What possible motive can anyone have for fighting against making the systems more robust and reliable and transparent.
Now if there were strict criteria for DT to follow it none of these arguments would be happening. First time they don't abide with the criteria and mandate boom they are gone. Of course they would need to be legends or heros and have a long history of fair behaviour and trustworthy behaviour. Any grey area squabbles would be too risky to start handing out red because unless you actually got scammed or have a clear case to provide that demonstrates they are untrustworthy then it will not be worth losing your DT over.
There should not be persons saying or having opinions on how it should be changed or not changed. There should be proposals that are weighed on their merit. There needs to be systems proposed and then debate on whether and why they are an improvement and if they can be coded into the design of the forum.
"Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable" -
Give an example??
"just like a bounty shitposter isn't qualified to provide input on post quality and merits" -such moon
100% agree with most of that and that ANYONE GETTING PAID2POST should not be allowed into a position of power controlling PAID2POST through merit and trust. That is a good move for a start. That takes out most of the sig spammers in meta here.
I always love it when you pop up to help confirm the we need to debate ways to improve the systems you and others seem to control right now. Stick around suchmoon your contributions are sorely missed in meta lately. Bring the others back here too that are poster boys for the fact the systems of control need criteria and a mandate or be abolished.
If I was Satoshi, would you then listen to these ideas I present?
Look at the first post of this thread. See what makes this DT list and what the DT users do.
DT should not be a group that requires whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Look at the first post of this thread. See what makes this DT list and what the DT users do.
DT should not be a group that requires whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about (1) abuse/retaliatory feedback and (2) feedback predominantly without references. This is useless and harmful to the trust system. Nothing to do with satoshi or scambusting.
If you got nothing to contribute to the system then don't. But if you're making a mockery of it - I think that disqualifies your opinion on the subject, just like a bounty shitposter isn't qualified to provide input on post quality and merits.
I'm not putting words in your mouth? Wtf. Is that a default line you open up with when you want to make an insulting reply?
My ratings are not sent because of received feedback itself. Hence not retaliatory, I've told you this already, but you keep calling them retaliatory.
Reference is not required. Many times the reasons for a rating are complex and not referenceable.
Trust system is used in so many ways. Another reason why DT is skewing it up, as the same applies to DT.
If I was Satoshi, would you then listen to these ideas I present?
Look at the first post of this thread. See what makes this DT list and what the DT users do.
DT should not be a group that requires whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Look at the first post of this thread. See what makes this DT list and what the DT users do.
DT should not be a group that requires whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
Don't put words in my mouth. I'm talking about (1) abuse/retaliatory feedback and (2) feedback predominantly without references. This is useless and harmful to the trust system. Nothing to do with satoshi or scambusting.
If you got nothing to contribute to the system then don't. But if you're making a mockery of it - I think that disqualifies your opinion on the subject, just like a bounty shitposter isn't qualified to provide input on post quality and merits.
Diluting the DT list (=adding more DT users) would reduce that PITA.
You keep saying that and you even "applied" to DT yourself but in the last year or so you posted around a dozen trust ratings, 2 (perhaps 2.5) of which are retaliatory and others have no reference links. That's a horrible contribution to the trust system and you should not be anywhere near DT nor have any say in how it should be changed.
If I was Satoshi, would you then listen to these ideas I present?
Look at the first post of this thread. See what makes this DT list and what the DT users do.
DT should not be a group that requires whatever active spam/scambusting you're looking for.
I've never scammed anyone. I've honored all my auctions and other business perfectly. Off you go, liar!
I'm not going to let a scammer call me a liar, bozo.
Diluting the DT list (=adding more DT users) would reduce that PITA.
You keep saying that and you even "applied" to DT yourself but in the last year or so you posted around a dozen trust ratings, 2 (perhaps 2.5) of which are retaliatory and others have no reference links. That's a horrible contribution to the trust system and you should not be anywhere near DT nor have any say in how it should be changed.
This is so totally offtopic, but I feel like I need to respond anyway. This Vod user just doesn't stop his harassing.
I've never scammed anyone. I've honored all my auctions and other business perfectly. Off you go, liar!
Blah blah blah. You scammed an auction. I left you negative trust.
I've never scammed anyone. I've honored all my auctions and other business perfectly. Off you go, liar!
Vod threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating.
I red rated you because you scammed.
Don't lie.
Blah blah blah. You scammed an auction. I left you negative trust.
You sure are a crybaby hypocrite.
I understand you want DT either diluted, changed or removed, but if you are going to derail every discussion about it back on to your personal beef with Vod, then nothing is going to change.
He seems to be oblivious to this. He doesn't want DT gone - he wants his red trust removed.
I do think we could use more DT1 and, by extension, DT2 members, but we shouldn't be adding people just because we need more people. We should be adding people who would be an asset to the system, regardless of your feelings about the system in general.
Surely that's what green trust is for? Green trust means you are unlikely to scam others. Being unlikely to scam isn't enough to warrant a place on DT if all your trust ratings are nonsense.
I understand you want DT either diluted, changed or removed, but if you are going to derail every discussion about it back on to your personal beef with Vod, then nothing is going to change.
If such a default list structure exists, it should solely be a list of people unlikely to scam others, it should be nothing more, nothing less.
Surely that's what green trust is for? Green trust means you are unlikely to scam others. Being unlikely to scam isn't enough to warrant a place on DT if all your trust ratings are nonsense.
I understand you want DT either diluted, changed or removed, but if you are going to derail every discussion about it back on to your personal beef with Vod, then nothing is going to change.
Vod threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating.
I red rated you because you scammed.
Don't lie.
I decided what you did wasn't untrustworthy to me
After this, you started power tripping when I provoked you. You illogically "misunderstood" me to reason your further wrongdoings and power tripping. Stop being dishonest.
Here's the real reason for you red-rating me:
I have made it neutral. You have made yours negative. Once of us will have to change it. :/
Which means that you gave me the option to 1) remove my rating to you or 2) be red-rated. I did not remove the rating, so you proceeded with option 2).
Source: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.37486761
It's also bamboozling how you still haven't shown any acknowledgement of your illogical misunderstanding, even though it has been opened up to you various times.
Vod threatened to red-rate me unless I changed my rating.
I red rated you because you scammed.
One solution, the one I mentioned in that quote, is to dilute DT list heavily. Also the sole purpose of it should be defined strictly. If such a default list structure exists, it should solely be a list of people unlikely to scam others, it should be nothing more, nothing less.
I disagree: I want people with good judgement on DT. Not being a scammer isn't enough. Example: I don't think cryptohunter is a scammer, but he had terrible judgement.Bring evidence now ................... I don't think you will. Where is my judgement terrible that makes me untrustworthy?
Where as I can demonstrate that you do not have the capacity or critical reasoning required to be a merit source. I mean how can anyone be left to judge others posts who is observably suffering from a broken mind? Just from some of the statements you and other merit sources make you can tell that they are pretty much low functioning. If you want me to bring examples just ask and I will provide.
Actually my entire post history from.. uncovering, fighting, damaging huge huge scams and fighting for fairer distribution (even though I would have gained much more from leaving it as it was) of huge projects only to be shouted down by a bunch of idiots who all later start complaining about how it went down and suggesting things I had presented to start with (bunch of fools).
I help the very most weak where you and the pharmacist were trying to bully around and get banned and I know full well all of my actions will cost me probably red trust and merit withholding and could not give one shit because it just backs up my case that these systems needs to be tightened up or destroyed. Helping people with nothing become millionaires by helping to push forward only the projects that I see as filling in the missing pieces of the end to end fully decentralised or trustless arena we all want to see. Being asked to hold large amounts of coins for projects because they can trust me not to dump them like the dev did previously.
Honestly I would ask you to bring forth one person on the entire board with more relevant credentials for global mod or dt. Fairness and honesty and robustness against caving against pressure against other system controllers are key here.
Not that I ask for any positions here because I am certain that where there is still free speech even one person can make a huge difference without being given positions of power.
If you can present one person with better proven judgement over these years... and as hard as all the scammers and loud mouth turn coats have scoured my closet for skeletons they find nothing. I have been told many times projects have financed people searching for anything to discredit me as their only hope for stopping my relentless slamming of their scams. They came up with NOTHING to demonstrate I committed any wrong doing.
I don't even just mean the gang in meta i mean every scammer and scam project who have talked trash about me but never produced ANY evidence of any wrong doing at all. All you will find from the start is helping the weak, criticising huge scams and scammy distributional methods, pointing out and highlighting the biggest scam promoters and enablers, giving everyone fair chance of find the most profitable projects ever (that were not scams) freely and before they took off. Fighting for increased fairness and freedom for all. Yeah terrible judgement.
You have done nothing like any of that you dumb fool.. you pull stats and also try to bully the weak from what I can see... that is it and get paid to spam it all over the place..and you criticise my judgement? You are a poster boy for why the merit system is broken I could not ask for a better example. I mean you have done nothing of note, your logic is a fail over and over and you have the most earned merit on this board.
Anyway sorry to go off topic but since I am being named and accused of having judgement that makes me untrustworthy with no evidence I reserve the right to ask it is provided or it is observable he is talking nonsense.
I can not wait for this bad judgement that would preclude me from a trust position (I never asked for dt or merit source ever anyway).
One solution, the one I mentioned in that quote, is to dilute DT list heavily. Also the sole purpose of it should be defined strictly. If such a default list structure exists, it should solely be a list of people unlikely to scam others, it should be nothing more, nothing less.
I disagree: I want people with good judgement on DT. Not being a scammer isn't enough. Example: I don't think cryptohunter is a scammer, but he has terrible judgement.Diluting the DT list (=adding more DT users) would reduce that PITA.
Please explain to my pea brain how this would be so. Also, how would this affect the ability of DT members to warn others? Also also, I thought you wanted to get rid of the DT system altogether.If there were more DT members, the chances that someone else had already tagged a scammer increase, etc. I assume that the "workload" for DT'ers is the source for the pain in your ass.
Whoever trusts DT would still see your warnings as "trusted feedback".
I'd prefer ditching DT completely. That doesn't mean that I couldn't suggest changes to DT.
Vod threatened
Yes, I know you've said this ad nauseam across multiple threads. Sorry I brought it up.It's an example of what sort of "mild, unpunishable" wrongdoings are done by DT members. I can find out many more. Often these things are discussed to the point where it's only frustrating to everyone, so maybe this fresh experiment is enough to get the point? I could bring up cases regarding or brought up by e.g. Deadterra, Lauda, mexxer-2, Lutpin, OgNasty, escrow.ms, etc. etc., but it would only end up like discussions regarding those cases ended before: in frustration, no changes (or small changes after insane amount of arguing), and wasted time.
I think the "Force custom lists" idea by theymos is the best step forward. I think that a less dramatic change would be to dilute DT, add a lot more DT1 members, and see what happens.
I did see that thread, and I'm not sure how forcing newbies to create a trust list would work, and they're the ones most likely to fall for scams around here, IMO. As to adding more DT1 members--did I miss how those would be chosen? Theymos would have to pick them, since he doesn't like the voting strategy, so it just seems like the DT system would end up being more of a clusterfuck than it already is, unless the DT1 members had to keep very strict trust lists. Diluting the DT2 pool seems like it would end up with more people with more power, more headaches, more internecine squabbles, more bitching about wrongly-left feedback, and more chaos.Or have I got my math wrong again?
It could go as you describe, but I doubt it. I'd argue that more decentralization in the DT would end up in more balanced outcome. More people with more power would mean less power per single DT user. The current amount of power that DT'ers carry is way too much compared to what is needed to simply warn newbies about scammers.
Why don't you just post everything with a dedicated thread in reputation? I believe that will be worthy for sure. Everyone will see what is happening here in the name of DT. You should post the proof.
Go read the Reputation and Scam accusations boards. Dive deep into the history. Feel free to compose a list of all the DT'ers who scammed and also try to find out when they were removed from DT if at all.
Would really appreciate having some links. Since you are an old member here, it will be pretty easier for you to link up.
For example check out https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/who-the-hell-uses-cecilniosaki-as-escrow-dt-may-have-hands-changed-1995886, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/master-p-scammer-i-lost-complete-faith-in-this-forum-now-1306301 and https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/removal-of-escrowms-update-recommend-users-for-dt-2-as-escrowms-is-removed-1359877 where a DT user scammed. There are loads and loads of cases there.
It's not hard to find DT abuse (not just scams) in there. It just takes time to really go through this stuff. There are only like 60-70 pages in Reputation where this material mostly resides. Scam accusations board is the other one.
There have been scammers in DT. It amplifies their scamming power a lot when almost everyone sees them as "trusted" only because someone chose that e.g. a long time ago. Account sales happen too, which make this even worse. DT accounts are traded constantly, so how correct is that perceived trust given by DT then? Also, as I said before, scumbags will find their way on to any curated or however small list, if it gives them a position they want. It's how it works. We've seen this happening on DT, too.
You can call me a newbie as I have joined the forum earlier on October 4, 2018. But I didn't see what you have mentioned, maybe I have missed those since the forum is bigger than we think. But I didn't miss the chance to read all the thread related to Gleb Gamow/ YuTü.Co.in/ Phinnaeus Gage and I know suchmoon has paid for the account too just to prevent any kinda scam issue. I have mentioned it here because I read the history with a lot of interest but I didn't get anywhere what you have mentioned.Why don't you just post everything with a dedicated thread in reputation? I believe that will be worthy for sure. Everyone will see what is happening here in the name of DT. You should post the proof.
Edit-
Quote
Go read the Reputation and Scam accusations boards. Dive deep into the history. Feel free to compose a list of all the DT'ers who scammed and also try to find out when they were removed from DT if at all.
Would really appreciate having some links. Since you are an old member here, it will be pretty easier for you to link up. Jump to: