Israel's future war: War of God and Magog - page 2.

sana8410

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 12:50:16 PM

I want to add something, just having had a discussion with my wife that reminded me of this.

I think dispensational thinking is the best explanation of what we read in the Bible. But it itself, unlke the Bible, is not the Word of God. So, what I think can and does happen sometimes is that seeing this pattern in the Bible, is to then read into the BIble certain sections that do not fit smoothly into it.

Off hand, as an example off hand, when in Rev 4, the Apostle John is told to come up here (heaven), to equate that with the rapture is stretching it. I don't think someone would get that just reading those passages; I think the thinking is that if one comes to the conclusion that the rapture is before the tribulation, and seeing Rev 4 as the transition to the tribulation, one then assumes the satement (come up here) is referring to the rapture.

Now, that can happen with even non dispensational approaches.

I don't see Rev 4 telling us anything about when the rapture is, but we do see it is when Christ returns and everything is pretty much burned up and laid to waste. Don't see anyone hanging around after that for anymore tribulation. It bold relates to the last part of your post

2 Peter 3;10;11;12;13
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rigon

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I want to add something, just having had a discussion with my wife that reminded me of this.

I think dispensational thinking is the best explanation of what we read in the Bible. But it itself, unlke the Bible, is not the Word of God. So, what I think can and does happen sometimes is that seeing this pattern in the Bible, is to then read into the BIble certain sections that do not fit smoothly into it.

Off hand, as an example off hand, when in Rev 4, the Apostle John is told to come up here (heaven), to equate that with the rapture is stretching it. I don't think someone would get that just reading those passages; I think the thinking is that if one comes to the conclusion that the rapture is before the tribulation, and seeing Rev 4 as the transition to the tribulation, one then assumes the satement (come up here) is referring to the rapture.

Now, that can happen with even non dispensational approaches.

noviapriani

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 12:40:40 PM

During Jesus' first coming, one of the things he rebuked was how the leaders (and thus many folk) ignored the prophecies that spoke of that time.

So, we are not expected to be ignorant of future events that are foretold. But, there is that flip side, where too many times folks have gotten ready for his 2nd return, and/or the rapture, only to find they were looking at just one piece of the puzzle (or get discouraged and fall away).

Because your ignorant and arrogant. You believes the Jews can't read their own scriptures, and only brainwashed Christians can understand them.
After all, Christians are the one who believe virgins can give birth to man/gods based upon their mistranslation of Hebrew scripture.

Rigon

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During Jesus' first coming, one of the things he rebuked was how the leaders (and thus many folk) ignored the prophecies that spoke of that time.

So, we are not expected to be ignorant of future events that are foretold. But, there is that flip side, where too many times folks have gotten ready for his 2nd return, and/or the rapture, only to find they were looking at just one piece of the puzzle (or get discouraged and fall away).

Rigon

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Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 12:09:22 PM

Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 12:05:37 PM

So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated. But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible. That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed. And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution. If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism. In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know. You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

Ok, i figured you were into that because it matches what you been saying, and there is different types of it. I also don't see how any Christian can be anti-semitic since its basically a Jewish text they follow

You would think - but unfortunately.....(we still have our sinful nature seeking to do its thing even after faith in Christ).

Of course, not everyone belong to denomination is really a Christian. A particular problem (I think) with having a national church. So, that might be part of where that came from.

zolace

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 12:05:37 PM

So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated. But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible. That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed. And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution. If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism. In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know. You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

Ok, i figured you were into that because it matches what you been saying, and there is different types of it. I also don't see how any Christian can be anti-semitic since its basically a Jewish text they follow

Rigon

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So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated. But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible. That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed. And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution. If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism. In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know. You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

Rigon

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Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 11:10:53 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 11:04:37 AM

Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind. The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout. There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns. So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes. The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture. So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

but according to dispensationalism thinking (which i take it describes you) the nation of Israel itself will become a Christian nation, and it can be something we witness. Its something that finds its way into politics because some may think they have the calling to make this come about. Therefore politicians regardless if they really believe it or not will say they do for the voting block. I'm not trying to change the subject of the thread, and whether my interpretation as opposed to yours (or what you read) is correct,or not, it could matter. It could matter because if the dispensationalists are wrong they are influencing foreign policy, and in a way that takes away the objectiveness needed when forming a foreign policy. That alone could suggest its not Biblical because it advances the idea that Israel doesn't stand alone, assuming these believers feel they have a role in helping them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Nah, this is interesting, and actually related. You bring up a legitamate concern. The dispensational approach has its merits, and the churches I have attended have taken that approach to one degree or the other. And yes, they so see Israel becoming a nation as part of that.

Nor would I say there is a problem with acting with a view towards prophecy - as long as the end does not justify the means. I think what Daniel did is valid. He sees that the number of years of exile for his people are soon to be over, and he starts praying about it. No indication that he goes talk to the king about it.

But, Nehemiah actually gets help from the king (a latter one) in help restoring Israel. There were objections by others regarding this, interestingly. But both men were working with the known will of God - and, Nehemiah did not gloss over Israel's sins just because of prophecy.

(Glad I saved this part - certain set of key strokes and I lose what I am typing).

zolace

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 11:04:37 AM

Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind. The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout. There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns. So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes. The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture. So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

but according to dispensationalism thinking (which i take it describes you) the nation of Israel itself will become a Christian nation, and it can be something we witness. Its something that finds its way into politics because some may think they have the calling to make this come about. Therefore politicians regardless if they really believe it or not will say they do for the voting block. I'm not trying to change the subject of the thread, and whether my interpretation as opposed to yours (or what you read) is correct,or not, it could matter. It could matter because if the dispensationalists are wrong they are influencing foreign policy, and in a way that takes away the objectiveness needed when forming a foreign policy. That alone could suggest its not Biblical because it advances the idea that Israel doesn't stand alone, assuming these believers feel they have a role in helping them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Rigon

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Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind. The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout. There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns. So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes. The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture. So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

Rigon

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Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 10:47:33 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 10:42:53 AM

As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there. Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it. Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq. But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

I don't see how we need them more than they need us.

Just to get a better idea, in brief do you think Israel as a nation becomes Christian? What about a new temple? and the abomination of desolation stands in the Holy place, is that the temple to be built or something else?

I don't mean that as it is usually meant. As in some sort of trade agreement or military alliance. Rather, I am referring to the below passage from Genesis 12.

I think the US has been blessed in supporting the Jews, both here in the US, and in supporting them having a nation. Which is not to mean supporting them in whatever they do, of course. But, we do not persecute them. They have had freedom here that was many times missing in Europe at various times. We have been, overall, during our history, a haven.

But God will take care of Israel with or without us.

1 Now Jehovah said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee:
2 and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make they name great; and be thou a blessing;
3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

zolace

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 10:42:53 AM

As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there. Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it. Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq. But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

I don't see how we need them more than they need us.

Just to get a better idea, in brief do you think Israel as a nation becomes Christian? What about a new temple? and the abomination of desolation stands in the Holy place, is that the temple to be built or something else?

Rigon

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As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there. Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it. Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq. But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

noviapriani

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 10:07:34 AM

Well, the promises that God has fulfilled from the OT were physically, not spiritual, regarding the nation of Israel (and the advent of the Messiah, etc), so I am not sure why it would be any different going forward.

We will have a physical fulfillment of Jesus' return, judgement, etc.

I know you mentioned you rather not involve the OT, but, that is the primary source, and it is what Revelation builds on.

Because there were no "fulfilled prophesies" from the OT. The OT was written AFTER ....
The OT is like "prophesying" the attack on Pearl Harbor on June 10th.....
Plus the OT is fulled with stories that never happened ( Exodus, etc...) .

Rigon

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Which will involve repentance on their part - which is sorely needed.

But, here in the religious forum, I thought it be good to have such a thread for future reference, as mentioned due to when it happens, it will be a clear testimony to the Creator (and folks will still find reason to not see that - Bible has many examples of that).

But also as a reference in case the subject does come up elsewhere in the forum.

Rigon

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Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 10:22:49 AM

Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 10:12:02 AM

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy? Most of them don't even buy into it. They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

Actually looking over the thread it looks like the second time i mentioned politics......oh well

Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding. I thought you were thinking my thread here had a political motive. Which I don't think is an issue as far as the Free Speech board, but, was not my intent.

I have been asked on it in the political forum, what with the several threads on Israel (including mine) and the potential for war. I have not advocated for war against Iran (though I think folks underestimate Iran's danger) since I don't know really what the overall outcome would be. But, I have said my thoughts there that my support of Israel is not due to some belief in an apocolyptic end. In fact, in the past, due to what the Bible teaches, I have stated that we probably need them more than we need us, and that God will take care of them, as you mention above.

zolace

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Quote from: Rigon on August 04, 2014, 10:20:48 AM

Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 10:12:02 AM

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy? Most of them don't even buy into it. They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

Actually looking over the thread it looks like the second time i mentioned politics......oh well

Rigon

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Quote from: zolace on August 04, 2014, 10:12:02 AM

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy? Most of them don't even buy into it. They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

zolace

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Activity: 364

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If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel .

Rigon

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Well, the promises that God has fulfilled from the OT were physically, not spiritual, regarding the nation of Israel (and the advent of the Messiah, etc), so I am not sure why it would be any different going forward.

We will have a physical fulfillment of Jesus' return, judgement, etc.

I know you mentioned you rather not involve the OT, but, that is the primary source, and it is what Revelation builds on.

Topic: Israel's future war: War of God and Magog - page 2. (Read 2775 times)