Topic: Israel's future war: War of God and Magog - page 3. (Read 2775 times)

I never thought there were 2 holy city's, i pointed out there can only be one. I would make a speculative guess that Zech 14 is just a larger picture of Rev 21 in post 96, where the new city comes down to earth. I won't discount your belief about today's nation of Israel somehow playing the main role in all this. I just think there isn't enough hard evidence, just speculation. I tend to lean more toward a spiritual Israel, which is attacked by spiritual counter forces, not what we currently see with the middle east troubles. It could be a mirror reflection however to some degree

There isn't any evidence that there is one holy land, let alone two.

 Mesopotamia is a much better land to live in than the Levant, so is the Nile Valley, yet we are expected to believe that god gave Abraham the "promised" land.

 Both areas were leading centres of civilisation while the patch between the Jordan and the sea was often a battleground between the two superior empires.

 Egypt keeps getting bad-mouthed in the bible because the Persians influenced the records of the Talmud.

Its seems to be what Jesus is saying in Matt 24, along with other supporting verses. I think in Revelation a seal is put on Gods people before all the trouble starts, and they are protected

So, you believe the church will be going through the tribulation?

Anyway, either way, once gone, there is no longer the concern about two holy nations at the same time, yes?

The nation comes together, and in time, becomes spiritually alive again (culminating in Zech 14).

After the things talked about in Matt 24 verses 1-31, also read peter 3;10

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

No, I am not saying there are currently two holy nations.

The verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and 1Corinthians 15) about what is termed the rapture - when do you think this will happen?
 

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There is no disagreement there about the calling out of Gentiles there, but, that is not saying either that God is done with Israel as a nation in the future.  Does not say he is thus suspending the OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

Yes Israel was a people chosen of God first and foremost who was given land, called a nation. See where the word nation is used again and for who; His people, not just Jews but Gentiles

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:

His people His church a Holy nation without boarders, 2nd peter is addressed to Gentiles in this context

the question is not whether the Bible is the Word of God, but what it is teaching.To your point, there is no evidence contrary to what the Bible records as history.

If you mean as a nation with land boundaries, etc, at the time of Exodus, sure, no disagreement there.

But, Israel was a nation of people, were the descendants of Abraham that, through Moses and Joshua, went to the land promised to Abraham over 400 years ago, and thus began a nation with boundaries (no king at the time).

On a related note for others that may read this, since the question comes up regarding how they treated the people of the land during Joshua's time, God had told Abraham over 400 years earlier that the time of reckoning for their sins was coming.  They were pretty depraved by the time Joshua led Israel there.

i would disagree as far as what i think "Israel" refers to. I don't have time now to expand maybe later tonite. I don't disagree the nation may be part of something just as any nation could, but see a danger in dogmatic beliefs on what that is .

There is next to no evidence that the Jews were ever in servitude in Egypt.  And absolutely none that Moses existed at all, let alone he picked up the ten commandments.

Well, then as you point out, things will have to change for them to survive.

In fact, given the scripture posted somewhere on this thread (would have to go look), the attack on Israel that is being referred to comes when Israel is not expecting it, and certainly beyond anything they can do about it.

One of several reasons why this current crisis is not the crisis referred to in this passage.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.

So, we have a passage in Exodus that is literally referring to the nation of Israel as my son, but is also prophetically referring to Jesus.

Is that what you mean there, so far?

when the state of Israel started Ben Gurian et al made it law that orthodox could study the Talmud and not be required to work or serve in the army.  So they don't and they breed so prolifically that they are beginning to register as a majority.  

When the youth qualify to vote their party (parties) will be most influential.

The verse I gave from Romans clearly shows that Israel is not referring to Christians.  Are you disagreeing with that?  Or are you meaning something else there?

I am not disagreeing that Israel can refer to other than the nation elsewhere, depending on context.

I can't use Daniel as firm evidence. No where in the new Testament is there clear evidence that points to the 'nation of Israel' in our day, yet plenty of clear evidence that Israel is defined as His people. See i look more closely at what the Bible points to in clear language as better evidence

In Daniel 9, Daniel hears in response to his prayers concering the captivity of the Jews and their restoration the folowing below.  Only 69 weeks of years has passed.  The rest below has already been fulfilled.  Jesus, the annointed one, is cut off after 62 weeks of years (which came after 7 weeks of years in the previous verse).

24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.
25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.
26 And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined.
27 And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.