Topic: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. - page 5. (Read 11620 times)

On the other hand, in contexts where the heat produced *IS* the point of the appliance, there is at least a possibility that by using electricity that the consumer would be buying anyway (and using to produce heat) the devices could be profitable. In terms of marginal cost that really is free power.

This gets back to the guy in Minnesota who replaced his electric house heating system with S3's.  Not the most efficient miner any more, but when the thermostat kicks it on, it still makes him more profit than his old electric heater ever did and produces the same amount of heat for the same amount of electricity consumed.

Who said anything abut the charity of the clients? There are various way where they can get their money. They can have a deal with TP-LINK for example to integrate the chips into their routers and TP-LINK pays them to do it.

Recycling heat in a consumer appliance seems too complicated. They need to keep it simple for start then move on to complex stuff.

Stop talking about poor piss people. They will pay for that router with the added benefit that they support a p2p payment network that fucks the banks in the ass. Remember that the router will have an energy cost no matter if it has bitcoin mining ASIC chips or not. Who gets a router already knows that he will pay for some power and as stated before for a 10W extra the consumer will pay 32$/year extra in terms of electricity. Nobody checks the power requirements of the routers so I am sure that most will not even notice an added 10W.

Nobody will buy such a router for the mining profits. They will buy if because it is at a discounted price or in a promotion or because they just want to support a free p2p payment network. No need to complicate things.

Likely possibility as producing a free device that is profitable for both will be a challenge although not impossible. This is akin to all mining in bitcoin where unless you have free electricity, are lucky, or invest over a million you won't turn a greater profit vs just holding onto your BTC. Yet people still buy ASIC's or into cloudmining ponzis over and over.

I suppose the side benefit is they may improve bitcoin security... Regardless of this, I won't allow companies to lie or mislead their customers without a fight so 21 better come prepared. Many of us were prepared and warned others about cloudmining ponzis or scam coins so 21 better get ready for a healthy dose of skepticism and pushback if they don't release a decent product.

Can't rule it out, really, but you are probably right.  Remember what Ron Popiel is rumored to have said when someone suggested design improvements to some angling equipment his company was making.

"Yeah, it would be better for catching fish but that's stupid.  The damn thing isn't supposed to catch fish, it's supposed to catch fishermen."

If you think it's the investors who are being ripped off, then similarly, we could be looking at an investment proposal that isn't supposed to produce a profitable company but is supposed to convince investors that it might.

But I happen to think it's the consumers who are being ripped off, and this is -- also similar -- a proposal for a (probably profitable) company which produces devices which are not supposed to make a profit but are supposed to convince consumers that they might. 

We should be more cynical and not assume 21 business proposal can survive based upon the charity of clients alone.

We shouldn't assume that all humans act rationally in their long term best interest either.

It is still possible that 21 can design an appliance that is profitable for both them and their clients if waste heat is recycled. (although a challenging task to do right)

Lets assume that the above isn't Immediately accomplished and these ASIC appliances aren't wise investments and that free router will cost 100 dollars in electricity over 2 years after 25% mining profits are deducted and a similar router can be purchased for 50USD new.

Who will be their demographic of buyers?

1) Individuals who cannot afford 50 dollars but need a router and can afford 4 dollars a month in electricity
2) Individuals who don't pay for electricity themselves (I.E.. renters/kids) or have already a fixed sunk cost on renewable energy solutions with extra watts to spare
3) Individuals who are concerned about privacy and prefer virgin coins and don't want to spend 8% more on localbitcoins
and waste their time(depends upon if virgin coins will be shared by 21 or not and if you can buy ASIC appliance retail )
4) Bitcoin enthusiasts who want to be "miners" or support the network
5) Idiots who cannot do the math and believe it is a wise investment

Those 5 categories constitute a very large demographic.

They aren't spending 1$/month for the benefit of some company. They are doing it for the benefits of the bitcoin p2p network which I know it will not thrill all the users. (unless 21inc chooses to mine directly to their wallets which would be very retarded). They need to find a way to make it worth it for the user to run these devices.

I am sure that most users would strongly object to spending 1$/month more for the benefit of some company out there.

Either the devices will be a net win for the users (including the hassle of keeping the device connected and collecting the payoff), or forget it. 

One advantage of an ASIC-enabled toaster (or of the Internet of Things in general) is that the cops will know precisely when you are sitting down for breakfast, on the day they come to get you.

So the variables that make it most suitable for commercial success-

1) Added convenience
2) Recycling/Re purposing waste heat
3) Inexpensive Item - that they can give away for free and thus becomes a long term "rental"
4) Always on devices that have access to the internet

Best candidates:

Free Routers - convenience and inexpensive device
Free Coffee/Tea warmers - recycle waste heat and inexpensive device

Good candidates:

Hot water heaters -  recycle waste heat but not sold or replaced often and more expensive
Pool/ spa water heaters -  recycle waste heat but not sold or replaced often and more expensive
Space heaters - recycle waste heat but not as efficient as other heating solutions and only useful to replace portable electric units
subsidized DVR IoT/Media Box - convenience of using internet and connected to TV for control, included HD could be marketed as full node too

So-So candidates:

Fruit/meat dehydrators -  recycle waste heat but more of a specialized or custom item


Anything like toasters, stoves, or cookers are ridiculous ideas as they need to be items that are constantly on to be worthwhile.

There is no ROI discussion here because the user will not want any ROI for those devices. If they can make it so that the total added cost is minimal (maybe <5$) the user will not care about the added 10W power consumption. That's like 1$/month at 0.10c/kWh. They only need to figure a way to market them and to convince people that their use of the ASIC routers matters. The main question is where all the mining power will go and how do you manage the huge network hashrate that will come.

I also think that these can be fit inside fridges. They already run 24/7 and they have no issue with heating since they can ditch it very easy in the back side. All that's needed is an extra LAN cable to go behind it. Putting them in toasters and such will not work because they aren't being that popular as routers and they aren't being used 24/7. Any other ideas about devices?

This is a good point. It isn't just about recycling heat but the added convenience of making mining slightly easier by integrating the unit within a router.... plug and play. From an engineering perspective an ASIC in a router is a horrible idea because it just adds to extra unneeded heat which needs to be properly vented, but engineering isn't the only consideration. If these units were free + 10 S.H. online or 5 dollars a piece retail than they would sell like crazy compared to 50 dollar routers. The danger would be in too many people ordering them as a router backup and not using them however so they would need to keep the potential profitability for the 25% BTC interesting.

Either way, I would have to be honest to the community and tell them the break even and projected ROI depending upon the electrical rates. It could turn out to either be a rent to own deal where the router is free but ends up costing more money over the course of 1 year or it could be a situation where the ASIC router is only wise to use if they live in a location of cheap electrical rates or they have free electricity (renewable energy and/or renters). The people discounting this business plan don't seem to grasp that both these options have a large market demand and will likely be successful as long as 21 can keep manufacturing costs down and the units difficult to hack.

This is really a genius idea.

But what if they put it inside routers for example and for start? Those devices run 24/7 and they always have an internet connection. Something like this could be the real decentralization of mining. If they can have something like 5-10W for bitcoin mining then people wouldn't mind the added cost of electricity. When this will happen I imagine all the big farms offering mining services to big companies for various reasons.

Hope for the best. Hope, this idea will turn into a good decision.

there is any proof that their asic chips that will go to plant  in our appliances will work with a better technology, let's say at 16nm productive process?

For the article:

Did anybody consider that they might be trying to create the next generation ASIC?
It would make sense.

The jokester who made up this toaster thing is probably reading this thread and having a laugh.

There is absolutely no way 21 inc raised $116 million based on the idea of putting miners in appliances that people use ~5 minutes per day. No chance in hell.

I can't believe so many people actually believe this is their business plan.

Honestly electronics can be designed to work at very high temperatures; the problem with that, is that the ways we know how to do it will produce electronics that DON'T work until they reach some approximation of those temperatures.

So, yeah, if you wanted to build chips that operate at 200 degrees celsius you could do it.  But you'd have to get them up to at least boiling temperature before they'd start to work.

In my eyes it is nothing sensational. I doubt that the venture capital will have any return on investment. It is just not practicable for many people.

My 290X's ran 24/7 for almost a year at 90-92 C, so chips can be designed to go higher. The past ~10 years has seen a major shift to lead-free solder in electronics manufacturing. The unleaded solders typically require a substantially higher soldering temperature, which means the components have to be rated for the higher temperature going through reflow. So if they designed it with heat in mind, I suspect they could take it to 105 C or higher in sustained operation. (105 C being a common test level for certain automotive applications, for example.)

If the mining chips are profitable with normal home electricity prices, then the company will be better off building a mining farm with them in some location where the elecrticity is cheaper.

If the mining chips are not profitable -- meaning that the price of the bitcoins that they mine is less than the price of the electricity that they use -- and their electricty consumption is added to the customer's normal usage, then the customer would take a big loss, while the company and the utility will profit.  

So, any idea that means taking some extra electricity from the customer's feed is a non-stater.  Inserting the chips near the input meter, or at any random place on the home's wiring, would be a bad idea.  Adding the chips to any devices that use electricity to do something other than generate heat --such as battery rechargers, blenders, TVs, computers, microwave ovens, lamps -- will increase the device's consumption, so it is equally bad.

The only devices where the chips could be placed without scamming the consumer are those that resistively convert the electricity to heat.  But chips canot work if they get any hotter than ~70 C; so electric stoves, ovens, grills, teapots, and flatirons are also out.

It seems that only water and space heaters are left.  But someone went through the math, and concluded that the monetary advantage to the customer would be too small to make a difference.

If toasters and fridges start mining bitcoins then what do they need humans for? They can earn their own living and that'll be the start of the end of the human race!