It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. - page 8.

louise123

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Quote from: acquafredda on May 07, 2015, 12:00:52 PM

Quote from: GingerAle on May 07, 2015, 11:34:19 AM

my favorite lines from that register article:

Quote

I've written more than a few business plans in my time and if I'd come up with this one I wouldn't be able to stop giggling long enough to present it. Nor, in fact, stop hugging myself for long enough to type it out. Obviously these people are made of sterner stuff.

Inquiring minds will be able to work out that of course this plan, by definition, loses money for consumers. So the big bet underneath it all is are the general public actually stupid enough to go for it? Here's a free toaster, some bitcoin, and please don't check your electricity meter?

Hmm, toughie really but I'd say probably yes. After all, as the phrase goes, no one has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the American public. By overestimating it, yes, but not under. ®

Re: decentralization, yes and no. ASIC chips will be out in the wild, so sure perhaps. But this doesn't increase full nodes or fix the centralized pooling problem.

And I don't think the idea is to use the waste heat for the appliances purpose. Its just to have an ASIC in there, along with whatever the appliances function is. So your TV? now its burning electricity constantly.

IMO, the waste heat option IS the way to go, and this concept has been presented before, with "data furnaces" etc as someone above probably pointed out.

What 21 Inc is doing, IMO, is just a brilliant scam.

Yes, I also agree with you.
Sounds really bad to me.

I will agree with that also.
Besides, once the people get informed, I doubt they will go for it.

acquafredda

legendary

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1481

Quote from: GingerAle on May 07, 2015, 11:34:19 AM

my favorite lines from that register article:

Quote

I've written more than a few business plans in my time and if I'd come up with this one I wouldn't be able to stop giggling long enough to present it. Nor, in fact, stop hugging myself for long enough to type it out. Obviously these people are made of sterner stuff.

Inquiring minds will be able to work out that of course this plan, by definition, loses money for consumers. So the big bet underneath it all is are the general public actually stupid enough to go for it? Here's a free toaster, some bitcoin, and please don't check your electricity meter?

Hmm, toughie really but I'd say probably yes. After all, as the phrase goes, no one has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the American public. By overestimating it, yes, but not under. ®

Re: decentralization, yes and no. ASIC chips will be out in the wild, so sure perhaps. But this doesn't increase full nodes or fix the centralized pooling problem.

And I don't think the idea is to use the waste heat for the appliances purpose. Its just to have an ASIC in there, along with whatever the appliances function is. So your TV? now its burning electricity constantly.

IMO, the waste heat option IS the way to go, and this concept has been presented before, with "data furnaces" etc as someone above probably pointed out.

What 21 Inc is doing, IMO, is just a brilliant scam.

Yes, I also agree with you.
Sounds really bad to me.

Alley

legendary

Activity: 910

Merit: 1000

Anybody that has the knowledge to hack this device has the knowledge to also know that even at 100% income there still losing money after electricity cost. I don't see this as a issue. I'm smart enough to know I'm going to buy a $20 toaster rather then a $10 asic toaster that raises my electric bill a few bucks a month. These products are for people that will never look into how mining works.

GingerAle

legendary

Activity: 1260

Merit: 1008

my favorite lines from that register article:

Quote

I've written more than a few business plans in my time and if I'd come up with this one I wouldn't be able to stop giggling long enough to present it. Nor, in fact, stop hugging myself for long enough to type it out. Obviously these people are made of sterner stuff.

Inquiring minds will be able to work out that of course this plan, by definition, loses money for consumers. So the big bet underneath it all is are the general public actually stupid enough to go for it? Here's a free toaster, some bitcoin, and please don't check your electricity meter?

Hmm, toughie really but I'd say probably yes. After all, as the phrase goes, no one has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the American public. By overestimating it, yes, but not under. ®

Re: decentralization, yes and no. ASIC chips will be out in the wild, so sure perhaps. But this doesn't increase full nodes or fix the centralized pooling problem.

And I don't think the idea is to use the waste heat for the appliances purpose. Its just to have an ASIC in there, along with whatever the appliances function is. So your TV? now its burning electricity constantly.

IMO, the waste heat option IS the way to go, and this concept has been presented before, with "data furnaces" etc as someone above probably pointed out.

What 21 Inc is doing, IMO, is just a brilliant scam.

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1034

Quote from: ?? on ??

Yes but is it worth the extra money and time to engineer such blocks when only maybe 2% of the people they give free coffee warmers to even care or know what they're doing?

Yes, because all it takes is a few individuals or one company that offers to buy the free coffee warmer for 10 dollars and to hack and than mine 100% themselves.

Example - It is well known that many console manufacturers subsidize or sell at cost the hardware in hope of recouping profits off the games. When playstation 3 was first released it came with OtherOS which allowed linux to be installed. Hobbyists were buying up consoles in order to get much cheaper hardware and make linux rigs with decent specs. Sony later removed OtherOS support to prevent this from happening and before a few of the hobbyists started a company reselling playstations as cheaper linux desktops.

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1034

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 11:07:32 AM

Quote from: louise123 on May 07, 2015, 11:06:37 AM

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 10:47:17 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I wonder how many TH/s it takes to toast bread in 2 minutes Wink

. The idea is good but there aren't enough everyday items we use just for the heat, I can't think of too many.

Yes, but all it takes is one or two products. Personally I think most of the products in the article are non starters including the toaster for ASIC's and the journalists were deliberately misled so they didn't leak the real products which could be competitive in the market.

I can think of a few products that have a chance of working: electric space heaters, coffee/tea warmers, and hot water heaters are a few examples.

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 10:39:41 AM

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

Agreed. Many scenarios could play out with further competition into appliance creating multiple new pools competing with older pools. A 21 Inc pool, a Samsung pool, a GE mining pool , ect...

... or if our hand is forced we may have to reverse enineer one of their products and create our own crowdfunded ASIC appliances that communicate with p2p pools. Wink

Well, why not hack their appliances (which will be our property since bought) and have them point to any pool that we want?

^^^ That.
What is stopping us from doing that?

Proper design can make chips very difficult to reverse engineer or hack. I am sure they are considering these implications.

S4VV4S

hero member

Activity: 1582

Merit: 502

Quote from: louise123 on May 07, 2015, 11:06:37 AM

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 10:47:17 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I wonder how many TH/s it takes to toast bread in 2 minutes Wink

. The idea is good but there aren't enough everyday items we use just for the heat, I can't think of too many.

Yes, but all it takes is one or two products. Personally I think most of the products in the article are non starters including the toaster for ASIC's and the journalists were deliberately misled so they didn't leak the real products which could be competitive in the market.

I can think of a few products that have a chance of working: electric space heaters, coffee/tea warmers, and hot water heaters are a few examples.

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 10:39:41 AM

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

Agreed. Many scenarios could play out with further competition into appliance creating multiple new pools competing with older pools. A 21 Inc pool, a Samsung pool, a GE mining pool , ect...

... or if our hand is forced we may have to reverse enineer one of their products and create our own crowdfunded ASIC appliances that communicate with p2p pools. Wink

Well, why not hack their appliances (which will be our property since bought) and have them point to any pool that we want?

^^^ That.
What is stopping us from doing that?

louise123

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 10:47:17 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

I wonder how many TH/s it takes to toast bread in 2 minutes Wink

. The idea is good but there aren't enough everyday items we use just for the heat, I can't think of too many.

Yes, but all it takes is one or two products. Personally I think most of the products in the article are non starters including the toaster for ASIC's and the journalists were deliberately misled so they didn't leak the real products which could be competitive in the market.

I can think of a few products that have a chance of working: electric space heaters, coffee/tea warmers, and hot water heaters are a few examples.

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 10:39:41 AM

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

Agreed. Many scenarios could play out with further competition into appliance creating multiple new pools competing with older pools. A 21 Inc pool, a Samsung pool, a GE mining pool , ect...

... or if our hand is forced we may have to reverse enineer one of their products and create our own crowdfunded ASIC appliances that communicate with p2p pools. Wink

Well, why not hack their appliances (which will be our property since bought) and have them point to any pool that we want?

Amph

legendary

Activity: 3206

Merit: 1069

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 10:39:41 AM

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 10:36:24 AM

Quote from: acquafredda on May 07, 2015, 10:18:18 AM

If it’s free you’re probably the product.
Nothing is free, maybe only the air you breathe that is polluted anyway...

In a market of brutal competition where miners have to pay for security, warehouse leases, engineers, cheap electrical contracts, ect ... 21 Inc is attempting to off load those costs onto the user.

Profits will be realized through greater efficiencies -

Security is no longer needed anymore because there is no longer a warehouse full of expensive ASIC's to protect. There are millions of coffee warmers spread across homes that aren't worth the effort stealing each one.

Electricity can be free with certain products. If I can use the waste heat from ASICs to warm a cup of tea or coffee than I have just put that wasted energy to use.

No Warehouse rent needed or insurance as mining is decentralized and replacing an existing appliance in a home.

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

I mean we should expect that, why wouldn't they? The miners are going to be preconfigured for this to work the way they want, what is more reliable then their own pool?

if their pool is made only of these asic, then it would be easy to spot, because they would have many down time, due to the appliances not being used all the time, also their pool would have a bad % profit because it will run with a low hashrate overall, i mean all those appliances can't compete even with the existing smallest pool

because of this, i think they will use an existing pool

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1034

Quote from: ?? on ??

I wonder how many TH/s it takes to toast bread in 2 minutes Wink

. The idea is good but there aren't enough everyday items we use just for the heat, I can't think of too many.

Yes, but all it takes is one or two products. Personally I think most of the products in the article are non starters including the toaster for ASIC's and the journalists were deliberately misled so they didn't leak the real products which could be competitive in the market.

I can think of a few products that have a chance of working: electric space heaters, coffee/tea warmers, and hot water heaters are a few examples.

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 10:39:41 AM

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

Agreed. Many scenarios could play out with further competition into appliance creating multiple new pools competing with older pools. A 21 Inc pool, a Samsung pool, a GE mining pool , ect...

... or if our hand is forced we may have to reverse enineer one of their products and create our own crowdfunded ASIC appliances that communicate with p2p pools. Wink

louise123

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

So that's what they been up to?
Hmm, I don't know if I should be glad or not.

We all know that miners tend to get really hot.
What if some appliance catches fire?
Would that be a good thing for Bitcoin?

S4VV4S

hero member

Activity: 1582

Merit: 502

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: S4VV4S on May 07, 2015, 10:39:41 AM

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 10:36:24 AM

Quote from: acquafredda on May 07, 2015, 10:18:18 AM

If it’s free you’re probably the product.
Nothing is free, maybe only the air you breathe that is polluted anyway...

In a market of brutal competition where miners have to pay for security, warehouse leases, engineers, cheap electrical contracts, ect ... 21 Inc is attempting to off load those costs onto the user.

Profits will be realized through greater efficiencies -

Security is no longer needed anymore because there is no longer a warehouse full of expensive ASIC's to protect. There are millions of coffee warmers spread across homes that aren't worth the effort stealing each one.

Electricity can be free with certain products. If I can use the waste heat from ASICs to warm a cup of tea or coffee than I have just put that wasted energy to use.

No Warehouse rent needed or insurance as mining is decentralized and replacing an existing appliance in a home.

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

I mean we should expect that, why wouldn't they? The miners are going to be preconfigured for this to work the way they want, what is more reliable then their own pool?

Why not P2Pool?

RodeoX

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1147

The revolution will be monetized!

Bam! Assuming there will be a wallet functionality, this is what I thought and hoped they were doing!

Fricking huge for bitcoin!!!! Shocked

S4VV4S

hero member

Activity: 1582

Merit: 502

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 10:36:24 AM

Quote from: acquafredda on May 07, 2015, 10:18:18 AM

If it’s free you’re probably the product.
Nothing is free, maybe only the air you breathe that is polluted anyway...

In a market of brutal competition where miners have to pay for security, warehouse leases, engineers, cheap electrical contracts, ect ... 21 Inc is attempting to off load those costs onto the user.

Profits will be realized through greater efficiencies -

Security is no longer needed anymore because there is no longer a warehouse full of expensive ASIC's to protect. There are millions of coffee warmers spread across homes that aren't worth the effort stealing each one.

Electricity can be free with certain products. If I can use the waste heat from ASICs to warm a cup of tea or coffee than I have just put that wasted energy to use.

No Warehouse rent needed or insurance as mining is decentralized and replacing an existing appliance in a home.

That, you do not know.

You have no idea what are the plans of 21 inc.
maybe they will set up their own pool where these new "miners" will mine.

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1034

Quote from: acquafredda on May 07, 2015, 10:18:18 AM

If it’s free you’re probably the product.
Nothing is free, maybe only the air you breathe that is polluted anyway...

In a market of brutal competition where miners have to pay for security, warehouse leases, engineers, cheap electrical contracts, ect ... 21 Inc is attempting to off load those costs onto the user.

Profits will be realized through greater efficiencies -

Security is no longer needed anymore because there is no longer a warehouse full of expensive ASIC's to protect. There are millions of coffee warmers spread across homes that aren't worth the effort stealing each one.

Electricity can be free with certain products. If I can use the waste heat from ASICs to warm a cup of tea or coffee than I have just put that wasted energy to use.

No Warehouse rent needed or insurance as mining is decentralized and replacing an existing appliance in a home.

acquafredda

legendary

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1481

Quote

If it’s free you’re probably the product.

Now, there is, we’d argue, a deep-seated problem with any business model that relies on a perpetual free lunch to maintain its bottom line. Our contacts, for example, note that bitcoin is already trading below 21 Inc’s worst-case projected price scenario, upon which the original business plan was based.

But there’s something broader. 21 Inc claims to be democratising and decommoditising bitcoin but seems to be openly corporatising mining by promising to turn everyone into a poorly paid employee.

As Jaron Lanier, author of Who Owns the Future?, has opined in the past, it is efforts like these that stand to turn Bitcoin into a plutocracy generating machine.

Quote from the article which is so tremendously true!
Nothing is free, maybe only the air you breathe that is polluted anyway...

Facebook is free... and the user is the product.
Gmail is free... and the user is the product.
Twitter is free... and the user is the product.

And so on...

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1034

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 07, 2015, 10:02:05 AM

Hmmm... I fear that this will make mining even more centralized.
In order that "your toaster" actually give you anything, it will have to be connected to a pool, else it will have too small chance to return even the 25%.
Also I fear that they may get hardcoded to a couple of 21 Inc owned pools, which will just simply have 75% pool fee...

The idea is interesting, but there are (far) too many things they can do wrong. (Electricity price/theft included).
Let's see what happens next...

hmm... interesting thoughts ... The reverse could also be true if someone hacks the hardware and or firmware to get 100% of mining payouts.

Another interesting thought is what happens to all the current manufacturers of appliances when their competitor is giving out free to heavily discounted appliances? Do they have to start producing ASIC appliances as well to compete?

NeuroticFish

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Activity: 3668

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Looking for campaign manager? Contact icopress!

Hmmm... I fear that this will make mining even more centralized.
In order that "your toaster" actually give you anything, it will have to be connected to a pool, else it will have too small chance to return even the 25%.
Also I fear that they may get hardcoded to a couple of 21 Inc owned pools, which will just simply have 75% pool fee...

The idea is interesting, but there are (far) too many things they can do wrong. (Electricity price/theft included).
Let's see what happens next...

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1034

Quote from: Amph on May 07, 2015, 09:56:55 AM

not to mention the earning would be abysmally low it would not compete even with a faucet, unless they are planning to build-in last asic generation, but i doubt

I like to keep my coffee warm throughout the day. Right now my coffee makers and warmers aren't free, don't pay me some dust, and simply waste electricity doing their job. What happens when coffee warmers are given away for free that actually do something rather than just heat my coffee?

Amph

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Quote from: Klestin on May 07, 2015, 09:21:40 AM

Quote from: BitUsher on May 07, 2015, 08:57:55 AM

This is simply a blindingly good business plan, exotically gorgeous in fact. For of course the cost of the electricity required to mine for bitcoin is very much larger than that 25 per cent of the value of the bitcoin that we get to keep.

For anyone who has to pay for their electricity, this is a horrid idea. If the heat generated from the bitcoin miner isn't directly beneficial to the user, then the cost of the electricity spent mining must be weighed against the bitcoins earned. With a decently efficient chip, and with 100% of the results kept, this is very nearly a wash right now. At 25%, it amounts to theft.

This type of thing could make sense in a space heater or coffee warmer, but that's about it.

not to mention the earning would be abysmally low it would not compete even with a faucet, unless they are planning to build-in last asic generation, but i doubt

Topic: It's Happening .... The secrets of 21 inc revealed, and its what we hoped for. - page 8. (Read 11620 times)