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Topic: Kano vs Bitsyncom - page 5. (Read 15342 times)

legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002
February 13, 2013, 01:16:08 PM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?

After certain people made that task considerably more difficult?  It is difficult to summon the motivation.  Ask again in 30 days...

Can I start distributing a Red Hat fork with my hardware, as an essential part of it, without releasing the source and you'll talk to your bosses about them waiting 30 days so I can remove "some debugging code"?
No lawsuits, deal? Grin
Oh, BTW, if your boss asks for the source code right away he will make license compliance a considerably more difficult task. Ask again in 30 days, maybe?
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2013, 06:47:09 AM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?

After certain people made that task considerably more difficult?  It is difficult to summon the motivation.  Ask again in 30 days...


Roll Eyes
It seems to me to be much more likely that you enjoy your asics so much that you just desided to stfu...
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2013, 06:40:13 AM
Well, the feedback from the gentle readers
2112's post sounded awfully cryptic
and not-so-gentle readers
Quoted, because it seems like you actually believe that detailed information about TSMC's processes exists in the modded cgminer.
is that my "Teach yourself IC design,fabrication&test in 21 minutes" lecture is too hard and sounds like black magic.

I'm going to quote single linear thought from my post to maybe make it easier to follow.
I'm not sure how much TSMC values the non-disclosure about the manufacturing node that Avalon used. But before they had their chips manufactured by TSMC they had to sign something about obeying reasonable care to avoid disclosing TSMC-proprietary and whoever-else-proprietary information. SHA-2 is an example of a self-testing structure, something akin to the test structures used in the manufacturing process testing and calibration.

When Avalon is going to disclose their voltage regulator and clock synthesizer programming information it will allow competent people to obtain very detailed information about TSMC process used. I don't think that theres much commercial value in that, but it is the intentions that count. Avalon signed not to disclose, but allowed disclosure through carelessness. TSMC aren't going to be thrilled about it and will drive harder bargain when Avalon tries to order the 2nd batch. I'm not expecting somebody from Chronicle Technology open the account to post "Thanks, suckers.", but maybe some of the Avalon competitors will do that.
The technique I'm talking above is called "yield estimation using test data". SHA-2 is 100% self-testing and trivial to reverse-engineer. Competent semiconductor manufacture engineer can with the help of changing clock frequency and supply voltage obtain a highly proprietary data in a completely non-destructive way (no chip desoldering, decaping, etc.)

An observant reader may ask "why neither Intel nor AMD seem to care about chip with unlocked clock-multiplier and voltage identifier". The answer is "binning". A large manufacturer will do an extensive test of their chips and sort them into bins. When they sell the "enthusiast-grade" chips with unlocked clock they sell them from the "fastest process corner" bin. All other bins are clock-locked and sold cheaper into OEM market. By "bin sorting" the manufacturer can completely obfuscate actual process parameters and make competitive yield estimation pointless.

On the other hand Bitcoin ASIC vendors cannot afford detailed chip testing, both because of financial and time constraints. Any chip that passes quick needle-test on the wafer prober will be packaged and mounted in the shipping product. This situation gives the analyst the sampling of an entire defect/yield curve for the fabrication process.

As far as I know the most commercially/competetively interesting information is obtained by testing the worst chips, those from the bin nearest to the "trash bin", the ones that barely met the specifications. In fact the content of the "trash bin" is quite valuable to the competition and therefore each fab carefully destroys the chips that failed the acceptance tests.

I hope that the above addition my posts will look more like grey magic than black magic. Please do some web searches about "yield estimation chip" and read the freely-available information.


The process that seems to be used is quite old. There is not a lot anyone can learn on this scale. Competitive electronics design is happening on the extremes where new structural designs are actually needed for progress.
At the level avalon delivered they were working with well developed tech using macro blocks.
I'd guess not very interesting to the competition.

Moreover, avalon could have easily developed cgminer in a way that would separate the TSMC sensitive data.
While you claim that there must be sensitive data in their version of cgminer i see no proof of that. In fact, because they don't release the code (even in redacted form) there is no way to actually check. So your claims are completely baseless.

But in any case, if there actually IS sensitive data baked into this version of cgminer then avalon have put themselfs at odds with either the fab license or the GPL. One requires them to disclose what the other forbids to disclose.
This is a situation that is entirely avalons fault and should not have existed in the first place.
That alone should be enough for the community to shunt avalon as they turned out to be greedy bastards.

hero member
Activity: 988
Merit: 1000
February 13, 2013, 06:12:47 AM
Ok.

Hey Bitsyncom, could you please post the source to your modifications to the GPL licensed cgminer code?

Thanks,
Con.


will do once organized, We have no intention to not disclose the source code.

I make it simple. You release product, you release source. There is no need to organize it further. You obviously have it organized enough to release the product.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 13, 2013, 06:04:39 AM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?

After certain people made that task considerably more difficult?  It is difficult to summon the motivation.  Ask again in 30 days...



Actually, can you post the cgminer binary? 1 satoshi says I can reverse engineer most of their changes before they release the source.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
February 13, 2013, 05:59:55 AM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?

After certain people made that task considerably more difficult?
Awwww ... it's more difficult to ask now? ... for the source that was available at least 24 days ago?
I guess that means all this sucking up to Avalon has caused continuous deterioration of your brain over the last 24 days and it's getting more difficult to join all those big words of more than 3 letters together.

Quote
It is difficult to summon the motivation.
Difficulty finding the  motivation to stand up for OpenSource?
Hmm ... I guess that makes it pretty clear where you stand against OpenSource.

A Bitcoin dev who can be easily bought with a 25BTC 'donation' ... and ditch OpenSource as easily as that ...
Doesn't say much for Bitcoin devs ...

Quote
Ask again in 30 days...
Not sure if anyone else was expecting that, but I certainly am not surprised at all.
You certainly have no respect from me regarding you blatant lack of support for OpenSource - though I'm certain that doesn't concern you.
But again, I'm not surprised, you were paid off to do it and did it for cheap.
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 13, 2013, 05:58:51 AM
will do once organized, We have no intention to not disclose the source code.

Only to violate the license just a little bit?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 251
Avalon ASIC Team
February 13, 2013, 05:56:19 AM
Ok.

Hey Bitsyncom, could you please post the source to your modifications to the GPL licensed cgminer code?

Thanks,
Con.


will do once organized, We have no intention to not disclose the source code.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
February 13, 2013, 05:50:13 AM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?

After certain people made that task considerably more difficult?  It is difficult to summon the motivation.  Ask again in 30 days...


The asking is pretty simple - you could just cut and paste Con's example:



Ok.

Hey Bitsyncom, could you please post the source to your modifications to the GPL licensed cgminer code?

Thanks,
Con.

-ck
legendary
Activity: 4088
Merit: 1631
Ruu \o/
February 13, 2013, 05:22:04 AM
Ok.

Hey Bitsyncom, could you please post the source to your modifications to the GPL licensed cgminer code?

Thanks,
Con.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1100
February 13, 2013, 05:11:38 AM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?

After certain people made that task considerably more difficult?  It is difficult to summon the motivation.  Ask again in 30 days...

-ck
legendary
Activity: 4088
Merit: 1631
Ruu \o/
February 13, 2013, 04:01:13 AM
The one thing I don't understand in all this flameage is why Jeff Garzik isn't championing the request for source from Avalon. Jeff?
full member
Activity: 196
Merit: 100
February 12, 2013, 10:14:09 PM
Competent semiconductor manufacture engineer can with the help of changing clock frequency and supply voltage obtain a highly proprietary data in a completely non-destructive way (no chip desoldering, decaping, etc.)

I do see what you're saying now, but you're still assuming that fine-grained control of individual chip frequencies and voltages (since you'll have a hard time getting good data if you can only do a whole board of 80? chips at once) exists within the modded cgminer and not an FPGA/MCU blob and also that this can't be trivially replicated by monitoring the usb-serial comms and also that someone actually has an Avalon unit (lol) that they don't mind risking for the tests (lol) and also that someone actually cares that much about this data to go to the effort at all.

It's a bit of a long limb, especially since Avalon wouldn't have picked GPL code if this was a serious concern (or they're license violating assholes, but PL has assured us that they aren't).
hero member
Activity: 533
Merit: 500
February 12, 2013, 06:40:53 PM
Thanks for the clarification there, 2112.  I didn't type that it was cryptic though because I didn't understand your terms or the concept of binning after the fact, I only put it there as saying that Avalon is not in a good position at the moment with respect to their licenses apparently.

Good post Maqi.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003
February 12, 2013, 03:44:27 PM
getting free hardware because you commit some code.

If you keep repeating this, it may become true! Maybe try tapping your heels together to increase the odds.
Selective blindness is always interesting.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 252
February 12, 2013, 03:10:09 PM
Is 2122's argument, "because it is inconvenient to my business practice I will violate the license agreement?" So if I out-license a patent to you for a fee, will you just stop paying me because it's better for you to not pay me than pay me?

You can take that position, but license violations open you up to lawsuit liability (cease and desist at a minimum, and damages at a maximum).

If you don't believe me, google Aaron Swartz...

Also, Avalon agreed to the terms of the GPL by using the software. No one forced them to use it. If they don't want to disclose code, then just write your own miner software (like BFL did with easyminer...)

If you want to use cgminer, then follow the terms of the license. The alternative is not use cgminer.

EDIT: I'm in small business hardware and software. I sometimes choose GPL and sometimes not, depending on my strategy. Avalon can do the same.
legendary
Activity: 2128
Merit: 1073
February 12, 2013, 02:18:12 PM
Well, the feedback from the gentle readers
2112's post sounded awfully cryptic
and not-so-gentle readers
Quoted, because it seems like you actually believe that detailed information about TSMC's processes exists in the modded cgminer.
is that my "Teach yourself IC design,fabrication&test in 21 minutes" lecture is too hard and sounds like black magic.

I'm going to quote single linear thought from my post to maybe make it easier to follow.
I'm not sure how much TSMC values the non-disclosure about the manufacturing node that Avalon used. But before they had their chips manufactured by TSMC they had to sign something about obeying reasonable care to avoid disclosing TSMC-proprietary and whoever-else-proprietary information. SHA-2 is an example of a self-testing structure, something akin to the test structures used in the manufacturing process testing and calibration.

When Avalon is going to disclose their voltage regulator and clock synthesizer programming information it will allow competent people to obtain very detailed information about TSMC process used. I don't think that theres much commercial value in that, but it is the intentions that count. Avalon signed not to disclose, but allowed disclosure through carelessness. TSMC aren't going to be thrilled about it and will drive harder bargain when Avalon tries to order the 2nd batch. I'm not expecting somebody from Chronicle Technology open the account to post "Thanks, suckers.", but maybe some of the Avalon competitors will do that.
The technique I'm talking above is called "yield estimation using test data". SHA-2 is 100% self-testing and trivial to reverse-engineer. Competent semiconductor manufacture engineer can with the help of changing clock frequency and supply voltage obtain a highly proprietary data in a completely non-destructive way (no chip desoldering, decaping, etc.)

An observant reader may ask "why neither Intel nor AMD seem to care about chip with unlocked clock-multiplier and voltage identifier". The answer is "binning". A large manufacturer will do an extensive test of their chips and sort them into bins. When they sell the "enthusiast-grade" chips with unlocked clock they sell them from the "fastest process corner" bin. All other bins are clock-locked and sold cheaper into OEM market. By "bin sorting" the manufacturer can completely obfuscate actual process parameters and make competitive yield estimation pointless.

On the other hand Bitcoin ASIC vendors cannot afford detailed chip testing, both because of financial and time constraints. Any chip that passes quick needle-test on the wafer prober will be packaged and mounted in the shipping product. This situation gives the analyst the sampling of an entire defect/yield curve for the fabrication process.

As far as I know the most commercially/competetively interesting information is obtained by testing the worst chips, those from the bin nearest to the "trash bin", the ones that barely met the specifications. In fact the content of the "trash bin" is quite valuable to the competition and therefore each fab carefully destroys the chips that failed the acceptance tests.

I hope that the above addition my posts will look more like grey magic than black magic. Please do some web searches about "yield estimation chip" and read the freely-available information.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
February 12, 2013, 08:14:07 AM
Again, I'm just quoting for future reference because

No, you're quoting because you actually think that someone would bother to go back and edit their post after you (literally or figuratively) school them using your vast intellect, and that they wouldn't be able to face being humiliated by you. Since you think that this is reasonable behavior, I shall do the same.

It is reasonable behaviour. Lots of people edit or delete old or incorrect posts. It's useful to quote for posterity posts a member thinks is important or, for example, we'd never have reeces' wonderful and inventive insults to read.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
February 12, 2013, 07:35:55 AM
Are you actually complaining about the GPL license? kjj is absolutely correct. Avalon took GPL source, modified it, and failed to offer the source. That is a violation, plain and simple. It doesn't matter if they promised to release it later. It doesn't matter if they are giving up trade secrets to release it. If they don't like the terms of the GPL, they shouldn't have used GPL source. But they did use GPL source, and they have violated the license.
What I'm pointing out is that kjj is preaching from the Free Software Foundation bible in the church of Hardware.

The actions that make sense in software business are frequently suicidal in the hardware business. This is because of the cost structure: hardware is mostly front-end-loaded, whereas software is mostly back-end-loaded.

Yes, Avalon made a mistake by using a code requiring GPLv3 compliance. They should've designed a separation layer like many hardware vendors that support Linux. But the Avalon team is young and inexperienced and they didn't design for that.

My position is that rational supporters of Bitcoin would attempt to come up with some middle-of-the-road solution to safeguard the existence of viable competition of multiple vendors in the Bitcoin ASIC business. What I see is almost exact opposite: they are asking Avalon to nearly commit suicide for the sake of an ilusory freedom. Ilusory, because for the gain of few pages of source the whole Bitcoin ecosystem is paying the price of severely disadvantaging one of the ASIC vendors, to the point that in the next iteration we could have a monopoly.

The rational behaviour would be probably along several possible lines:

a) disclose the code only to Jeff Garzik. He's professionally involved in Linux kernel development and may be able to offer some useful advice on how to both comply with GPLv3 and TSMC/whoever-else NDAs.

b) offer to escrow the code with Bitcoin Foundation and have a programmer at B.F. to produce an obfuscated code that complies both with GPLv3 and NDAs. There are already multiple precedents in escrowing the information with Gavin Andresen, but thus far the escrow was security-related.

c) I personally think that the "binary blob" workaround isn't viable here for purely technical reasons. But I may be wrong. Maybe somebody willing and able to sign the NDA could help Avalon to develop such a solution.

d) take a chill pill and make Avalon folks pinky swar that they disclose the required information after the competition shipped and after the subsequent batches are locked in with TSMC.

But this thread isn't about being rational. It is about militancy, a very short-sighted militancy of playing open-face chinese-rules poker at the traditional-rules poker table.

Think for a moment: What would Richard Stallman do if he had a single tapeout to his name before he received his MacArthur Fellowship? We wouldn't have a Free Software Foundation. We would have maybe a Free Logic Foundation or Free Computation Foundation or something else. But I believe that we would be better off: maybe we could have open-source processors and disk drives in our open-source computers.

+1 Thanks for this clarity.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
February 12, 2013, 06:36:19 AM
getting free hardware because you commit some code.

If you keep repeating this, it may become true! Maybe try tapping your heels together to increase the odds.

You might wanna be careful with those heel-tricks or you might end up in Kansas Wink
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