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Topic: Kano vs Bitsyncom - page 10. (Read 15322 times)

newbie
Activity: 52
Merit: 0
February 09, 2013, 11:32:57 AM
#51
Kano, please accept Bitsyncom's apology--I think the two of you just got off on the wrong foot. Honestly, Chinese culture doesn't really allow for really elaborate apologies so this is probably as good as it's going to get Smiley

I really admire the work that you do for cgminer and I really admire the technical accomplishment that Bitsyncom was able to achieve with building ASICs. I really hope the two of you could patch things up and work together more in the future.

By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.
...
No, by proper support I mean anyone who does the code would need the hardware to make it optimal and to not stifle code development by others
(and a github account would be necessary also)
As I said above, that will hopefully be Xiangfu.
It could actually be best to be ckolivas ... but anyway ...

Yes your question has an answer of "No" even though you follow it with a long post of mostly rubbish making an incorrect assumption it is "Yes"

Well, then. I man up and apologizes for doubting your intention. I suppose I read too much into it, and now can move on to better things.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 252
February 09, 2013, 11:22:17 AM
#50
Did a business seriously start a public thread just to taunt the (volunteer) developer of their software platform? With friends like these, who needs enemies...

Summary of events:
1) Avalon wants miner software, decides cgminer is a good platform and decides to use it (OK)
2) cgminer's developer asks for hardware so he can properly include it in cgminer (OK)
3) Avalon declines the offer (OK) and finds someone else to code it (OK)
4) Avalon shipped devices with binary code (OK)
5) The cgminer developer requests source code via 6b of GPL-v3. (OK)
6) Avalon has 30 days to remedy the situation (section 8 GPL-v3, OK)
7) Avalon drags feet as to not give a competitive advantage to competitors (OK), cites "technical" reasons but it doesn't matter, they can just drag their feet.

Why taunt Kano? Fulfil the request (or be liable to legal action) and take care of customers - what's the point of this thread?

Your summery is pretty accurate, except for the fact that Kano can't request the source code, as he's not a customer, and I believe a Mod split this thread out of another one. I do love how they use cgminer software, and then bitch at a CGMiner dev for getting involved. Really?  Roll Eyes

Yeah, that's a GPL-v2 thing, not v3. Only those that actually receive the binary code can request it.
legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1000
February 09, 2013, 11:14:15 AM
#49
Did a business seriously start a public thread just to taunt the (volunteer) developer of their software platform? With friends like these, who needs enemies...

Summary of events:
1) Avalon wants miner software, decides cgminer is a good platform and decides to use it (OK)
2) cgminer's developer asks for hardware so he can properly include it in cgminer (OK)
3) Avalon declines the offer (OK) and finds someone else to code it (OK)
4) Avalon shipped devices with binary code (OK)
5) The cgminer developer requests source code via 6b of GPL-v3. (OK)
6) Avalon has 30 days to remedy the situation (section 8 GPL-v3, OK)
7) Avalon drags feet as to not give a competitive advantage to competitors (OK), cites "technical" reasons but it doesn't matter, they can just drag their feet.

Why taunt Kano? Fulfil the request (or be liable to legal action) and take care of customers - what's the point of this thread?

Your summery is pretty accurate, except for the fact that Kano can't request the source code, as he's not a customer, and I believe a Mod split this thread out of another one. I do love how they use cgminer software, and then bitch at a CGMiner dev for getting involved. Really?  Roll Eyes
vip
Activity: 756
Merit: 503
February 09, 2013, 11:13:04 AM
#48
Yifu G.,

To put things very plainly:
I believe some people are upset that they have paid for an Avalon ASIC unit and received no confirmation email from Avalon themselves.  These emails are important and they help to settle doubt. 

It's pretty easy to see that you guys are still sorting through the preorders, that is fine, but just know that a simple email saying "we received your payment, your shipping address is..." can go very far.

-Coaster
I agree.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 252
February 09, 2013, 11:10:16 AM
#47
Did a business seriously start a public thread just to taunt the (volunteer) developer of their software platform? With friends like these, who needs enemies...

Summary of events:
1) Avalon wants miner software, decides cgminer is a good platform and decides to use it (OK)
2) cgminer's developer asks for hardware so he can properly include it in cgminer (OK)
3) Avalon declines the offer (OK) and finds someone else to code it (OK)
4) Avalon shipped devices with binary code (OK)
5) The cgminer developer requests source code via 6b of GPL-v3. (OK) [EDIT: kano might not have rights to request the code, only those that received the binaries may. If, however, someone emails kano the binary - he may then request the source from the intermediary who must request it from Avalon]
6) Avalon has 30 days to remedy the situation (section 8 GPL-v3, OK)
7) Avalon drags feet as to not give a competitive advantage to competitors (OK), cites "technical" reasons but it doesn't matter, they can just drag their feet.

Why taunt Kano? Fulfill the request (or be liable to legal action) and take care of customers - what's the point of this thread?
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
February 09, 2013, 11:09:51 AM
#46
Kano: I dare you to release all future versions of cgminer under the GPLv2 and not above.  Wink
legendary
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1001
February 09, 2013, 11:06:30 AM
#45
Seems like Avalon have something to hide. And i bet that something is that they spent all batch#1 money on development and only produced a few units. batch#2 will be funding batch#1 orders.

*Ding Ding Ding* We have a winner!

 Wink
sr. member
Activity: 367
Merit: 250
Find me at Bitrated
February 09, 2013, 10:34:38 AM
#44
Yifu G.,

To put things very plainly:
I believe some people are upset that they have paid for an Avalon ASIC unit and received no confirmation email from Avalon themselves.  These emails are important and they help to settle doubt. 

It's pretty easy to see that you guys are still sorting through the preorders, that is fine, but just know that a simple email saying "we received your payment, your shipping address is..." can go very far.

-Coaster
full member
Activity: 143
Merit: 100
February 09, 2013, 10:26:25 AM
#43
BitSyncom,
Maybe you should stop chatting with one, who not even your customer and spend little more time for your real customers? We haven't heard anything about batch #1 shipping since Jan 29(?), and anything about batch #2 from Feb 2. Please take some time, and update status for your customers pleasure.
Thank you.

PS: Even more pleasure for you customers would be an answers at your support helpdesk.

+2  Smiley

Seems they have plenty of time on their hands to have a bitching war on the forums here. But no time to deal with their clients.
Seems like Avalon have something to hide. And i bet that something is that they spent all batch#1 money on development and only produced a few units. batch#2 will be funding batch#1 orders.
legendary
Activity: 2955
Merit: 1049
February 09, 2013, 10:17:14 AM
#42
BitSyncom,
Maybe you should stop chatting with one, who not even your customer and spend little more time for your real customers? We haven't heard anything about batch #1 shipping since Jan 29(?), and anything about batch #2 from Feb 2. Please take some time, and update status for your customers pleasure.
Thank you.
+1  Smiley
hero member
Activity: 896
Merit: 532
Former curator of The Bitcoin Museum
February 09, 2013, 10:14:23 AM
#41
Feb-2

Hey Josh,
P.S. if anything I've said on the forum lately has pissed your guys off - oh well,
damn shame Smiley

You are pissed off because we haven't got around to release source code yet or the fact we did not giving you a free unit?

Are you starting a whole thread just to start a fight with Kano?

Fuck off you loser.

you should get down on your knees and suck the man off for the software development he has done for the bitcoin community.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
February 09, 2013, 08:54:32 AM
#40

This entire thread was silly and shows negative aspects to each party's personality.

Eh, an overstatement.  I'll just leave this:


1.  Kano.  Thanks for your transport protocol work.
2.  Avalon.  Get your bugs fixed rather than spending time telling ppl to FO on the forum.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 251
Avalon ASIC Team
February 09, 2013, 08:25:41 AM
#39
By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.
...
No, by proper support I mean anyone who does the code would need the hardware to make it optimal and to not stifle code development by others
(and a github account would be necessary also)
As I said above, that will hopefully be Xiangfu.
It could actually be best to be ckolivas ... but anyway ...

Yes your question has an answer of "No" even though you follow it with a long post of mostly rubbish making an incorrect assumption it is "Yes"

Well, then. I man up and apologizes for doubting your intention. I suppose I read too much into it, and now can move on to better things.
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
February 09, 2013, 07:54:00 AM
#38
By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.
...
No, by proper support I mean anyone who does the code would need the hardware to make it optimal and to not stifle code development by others
(and a github account would be necessary also)
As I said above, that will hopefully be Xiangfu.
It could actually be best to be ckolivas ... but anyway ...

Yes your question has an answer of "No" even though you follow it with a long post of mostly rubbish making an incorrect assumption it is "Yes"
legendary
Activity: 4592
Merit: 1851
Linux since 1997 RedHat 4
February 09, 2013, 07:38:19 AM
#37
Kano, if you can wait a couple of months i'll have one you can borrow for a bit. Not sure how much help that will be, but the offers there if you need it.
Well actually the biggest issue right now as far as I understand with the code is that there are problems and fixes and no one has the code and almost no one has the hardware and no one is doing the fixes.
The side effect of a list of things Avalon has done.

I've actually done a lot of USB code over the last 2 months (well not a lot, but a few thousand lines of changes) and it's all been possible coz I have hardware (MMQ FPGA and BFL FPGA) but until I get an ASIC, I've no real hard answers on how it will perform and what problems there will be.
From testing, I do already know the USB code can sometimes be many times faster than the serial-USB code (due to running old and my new versions of cgminer) but until I throw the code at a 60~80GH/s BFL SC Single, I don't know what optimisations and improvements are possible or necessary ... let alone what a 1.5TH/s BFL MiniRig will do Smiley
Certainly at this point in the game, there is no way I'd be doing this without the hardware. It's not even possible to do it properly.

The current Avalon code also uses serial-USB ... which I've been trying to get rid of from cgminer coz it sux ... so completely rewriting it is certainly not on the list of things I will ever be doing Tongue

But in the case of the Avalon, at this point in time I'm not involved with it and I don't see that changing
(no matter what they say, my interest in it is certainly now almost zero, and I suspect they feel the same)

However, my interest in the cgminer license is totally independent of that.
At least while I'm involved with cgminer, I certainly will always bring up the issue of hiding the code or violating the license where I see it.
I'll do the same with BFL or anyone else, but of course I know with the companies who are supplying me hardware, that there will be no license violation since I will be writing the code and making it publicly available as I always do.

Long term (i.e. a few months when you get yours) hopefully there will already be someone else looking after it.
But it wont be me.

Thanks indeed for the offer, but I don't suspect I'll ever take it.
However, from what BitSyncom has said, Xiangfu will be getting an Avalon ... some time ... so hopefully he will be the one to maintain the code since he will have the hardware
We see him in the #cgminer channel often (and yes also when he was asking about how to do the Avalon code last year Smiley

I can seriously say at this point in time, that if the BFL SC Single does do 60~80GH/s at ~100W, I certainly wont want an Avalon.
But at this point in time that still isn't certain ... though I'll not be surprised if that does become a certainly in the very near future.
However, like when bASIC started, I do hope there will be some other company providing competition with BFL ...
Such a pity bASIC went down the drain.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
February 09, 2013, 06:25:04 AM
#36
Kano, if you can wait a couple of months i'll have one you can borrow for a bit. Not sure how much help that will be, but the offers there if you need it.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 251
Avalon ASIC Team
February 09, 2013, 06:20:26 AM
#35
By proper support you mean support from you? Pfft. No wonder.

Yes, then it was very obvious. We never expected support from you especially if you do not have the hardware.

I didn't understand the intention of your lengthy message about how it is our job to support our own code, it was redundant; especially the part where you mentioned how everyone else is providing you hardware to support instead.

when I tried to understand your logic behind "no one asked me a question but I'm answering anyways" logic frankly speaking it sounded like this instead,

Quote from: Capable Kano walks into a cafe shop
Hey I haven't heard from you guys so I presumed you are getting your own coffee beans(since I haven't heard from you so I presumed you guys are handling support yourselves) I know you guys are not buying coffee(getting support) from me right now and I have the best(am a cgminer codebase maintainer), but just you know, since you never asked to buy my coffee beans for this cafe(never asked me to support this device), I'm here to tell you won't have the best coffee.(can't have proper support)

p.s.
rest of the cafe's on this block is buying coffee beans from me(sending units/hardwares for me to support)

That's sounds like the definition of self important bullshit if I ever heard one. Now, if that is not your intention for things can get lost in translation coming from the southern hemisphere then allow me to man up and apologize in advance for I have wronged you.

Otherwise? Fuck you.  Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1003
February 09, 2013, 06:16:52 AM
#34
My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said
"Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support."
Start crackin' on asking for those donations from the community. That will resolve your issues.

You are clearly aware of this as a "requirement". Now it is up to you to resolve the issue with purchasing of hardware. Don't wait for it to come to you, start asking for donations.

Lots of people in the linux and other open source communities do that for the developers. People say they respect you quite a bit for your work. So show them there is a need and ask them to provide it for you.

Or be nicer to Yifu and ask nicely for a discount after asking for donations to purchase the required hardware.

-----------------------

Your ultimate "spin" on this topic is that you need to be provided with hardware. Well, you can very easily come half way and get the hardware. Perhaps they will extend a discount for your purchase as a developer.

It doesn't have to come "to you" out of an implied sense of entitlement.

I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware?
I don't know.
Ask for donations. You are a critical programmer of cgminer are you not?

Do you not have the support of the community?

My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware.
It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it"
That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious"

So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into
Work out a plan with Yifu.

Have you ever tried beyond..."Well, you know, I need hardware to program on"

Followed by a:

"Well, you don't expect me to work for free."

----------------------
Kano, your an excellent programmer but your applied "spin" on veiled demands needs some fixes.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1003
February 09, 2013, 06:03:34 AM
#33
Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?
Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?
No, if you had even half a brain, you would have bothered to read the comments I made back then.
Anyone can see that I'm actually also saying that they don't really even need me to do it.
I have a habit of writing posts/PMs like that with too much info in them that can say, yes you don't need my help.

So just in case you have some deficiency that makes clicking on links and reading difficult, I'll quote it here:
...
But if you are going to come into my thread a year ago stating on how every other ASIC manufacture has been given developers free units so they may support their hardware and if I and Avalon choose not to do this you will not provide support then I'll reject you on sheer principle fucking level.

Good day.
My point was that I can't properly support it ... I thought it was pretty clear ... when I said
"Thirdly, hardware is required for proper support."

I guess the problem may be that I can magically provide support without hardware?
I don't know.
My statement was pretty clear saying that I can't provide support without hardware.
It wasn't a "you must send me hardware" it was "if I don't have hardware I can't support it"
That's like obvious ... as I said: "I am stating the obvious"

So pointing out the truth is now a reason for an Avalon tech guy to turn it into
...
What do I look like, a search engine?

https://bitcointalksearch.org/user/kano-36044

There, anyone can go read it themselves. For best context, they should look through the threads and read each post with responses and replies.
Yeah I'm not sure why you need to be a google expert to actually check your posts are true ... in your case yeah just misrepresent the facts and blame not being smart enough to use google ...
I noticed you added links to my and Bitsyncom posts.

But you seemingly quoted yours without links. In either case, I already read those.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1003
February 09, 2013, 06:00:01 AM
#32
Could it be this simple?

Kano respects cgminer, and is proud of his role in forwarding the development of cgminer.
A modified cgminer is used in Jeff Garzik's Avalon with a closed-source device.
Jeff Garzik's Avalon crashes once per day and needs to be restarted.  Memory leak? who knows.


Could it be that Kano simply has respect for how he feels cgminer should be, and Avalon should have tested before shipping?

Just a thought, but does that sound about right?
Yet, it doesn't actually flow with what Kano himself says.

He literally repeats what he has said already in the past.

Kano is a great programmer, I have little doubt on that. But he wants someone to butter his bread. When that someone says no, he goes into the samurai toting ninja you see above.

The last thing he is currently hiding behind is the release of the source code. Beyond that his attitude will stay much the same.

What do you think he would say of BFL if they sent him home without hardware? Or worse, asked him to actually pay for it?

Edit: The only thing I see is that Kano wants something and he approached it in all the wrong ways. Things didn't go well. bASIC folded. Avalon said No, BFL said yes.

He can hide behind "the source code has not been released" issue for a while longer. When it is released, his opinion won't change will it? I wonder why?


Well, again -

Avalon runs well, then restarts every 24 hours.   That would frustrate the hell out of me, as it'd be so easy for me to help out if I were Kano.  I am not Kano, but I could imagine.

We elected Kano as one of the representatives to be invited by BFL to visit its facility, due to his ability to discern a scam and to possibly test the SC line of hardware himself.  At this point, BFL is obviously not a scam.

By the way, I notice that Kano's avatar has changed.  Is that why you called him "the samurai toting ninja?" Tongue   I also notice that your avatar has changed to one that does not include the words "Avalon Asic" or a picture of an Avalon Asic.   Any reason for that?    
I was just changing my avatars since several people were doing it as well.

That and I was literally drinking coke as I looked up the picture.
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