Remember $300k seems small.... when price of BTC was 7-10
If the full amount was paid in BTC, hes pocketing $600-700k from this.
Topic: LEGAL COURSE of ACTION Discussion --- bASIC / BitcoinASIC - page 16. (Read 21287 times)
Tom owes me $2,759.97. (2 full bASICs and 1 half bASIC)
I do have screenshots of the Bitpay payments made to BTCFPGA.
I have my pitchfork and torch ready to go.
I do have screenshots of the Bitpay payments made to BTCFPGA.
I have my pitchfork and torch ready to go.
8 people also chose $22,000 when that was the largest option. 
Right. That is why I added the greater than option. I was surprised there were that many at $22k. It's possible one or more could be a kind of wiseguy just picking the highest number, but I left it open. At least we can get an idea on the magnitude. Even without those high numbers the losses among the less questionable are about $150k. And this is possibly the tip of an iceberg. Afterall, to the best of my recollection, Tom said he had something like a thousand or more refunds to process.
||bit
Here are some possible legal actions:
1.) Contact a lawyer and get him to file against Tom Van Riper a.k.a Cablepair
2.) Gather the funds to have him served with papers
3.) Begin the legal process to shut him down.
3a.) As a part of this process have your lawyers contact his known sources of potential forms of income (i.e Bitcoin, BTCGuild ((other mining pools)) MtGox) to freeze his accounts until the legal matter is resolved as it may involve them if he continues to operate using their services.
3b.) Have your lawyers freeze any of his assets and if appropriate have him deemed a flight risk based on his actions thus far.
1.) Contact a lawyer and get him to file against Tom Van Riper a.k.a Cablepair
2.) Gather the funds to have him served with papers
3.) Begin the legal process to shut him down.
3a.) As a part of this process have your lawyers contact his known sources of potential forms of income (i.e Bitcoin, BTCGuild ((other mining pools)) MtGox) to freeze his accounts until the legal matter is resolved as it may involve them if he continues to operate using their services.
3b.) Have your lawyers freeze any of his assets and if appropriate have him deemed a flight risk based on his actions thus far.
Anyone from BFL:
Consider contributing to any legal cost's. Likely many of those that would recover funds will purchase your products.
So far, the poll indicates more than $300,000 in losses. Not a trivial amount.
||bit
Consider contributing to any legal cost's. Likely many of those that would recover funds will purchase your products.
So far, the poll indicates more than $300,000 in losses. Not a trivial amount.
||bit
8 people also chose $22,000 when that was the largest option.
Have no idea what would come of this but...
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
Edit: I think people who have lost wire transfer should 100% pursue this course of action.
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
Edit: I think people who have lost wire transfer should 100% pursue this course of action.
1) Very interested, I have about $3300 invested. I'm from EU as well.
Would be interested in a percentage deal as well (debt collectors with commission only in case of success).
2) I think it's enough if we just add the poll numbers/claims in posts as a first step.
3) Evidence will consist mainly of emails, I have the site pages saved, but they were probably modified in the meantime.
I believe you should update your first post as we go on, or maybe we could use a wiki or so to centralize all answers/actions.
I also believe there should a section:
5) Are there any other (better or not) ways of settling this in a different way ? What I'm thinking of:
- simply someone to talk to Tom on behalf of the group and see what's really happening
- an agency for consumer protection or something like this (small claims court ? )
- debt collection company
- private investigator/debt collector
Would be interested in a percentage deal as well (debt collectors with commission only in case of success).
2) I think it's enough if we just add the poll numbers/claims in posts as a first step.
3) Evidence will consist mainly of emails, I have the site pages saved, but they were probably modified in the meantime.
I believe you should update your first post as we go on, or maybe we could use a wiki or so to centralize all answers/actions.
I also believe there should a section:
5) Are there any other (better or not) ways of settling this in a different way ? What I'm thinking of:
- simply someone to talk to Tom on behalf of the group and see what's really happening
- an agency for consumer protection or something like this (small claims court ? )
- debt collection company
- private investigator/debt collector
I'll update the post, but no guarantee's on an continual accurate update.
||bit
Anyone from BFL:
Consider contributing to any legal cost's. Likely many of those that would recover funds will purchase your products.
So far, the poll indicates more than $300,000 in losses. Not a trivial amount.
||bit
Consider contributing to any legal cost's. Likely many of those that would recover funds will purchase your products.
So far, the poll indicates more than $300,000 in losses. Not a trivial amount.
||bit
1) Very interested, I have about $3300 invested. I'm from EU as well.
Would be interested in a percentage deal as well (debt collectors with commission only in case of success).
2) I think it's enough if we just add the poll numbers/claims in posts as a first step.
3) Evidence will consist mainly of emails, I have the site pages saved, but they were probably modified in the meantime.
I believe you should update your first post as we go on, or maybe we could use a wiki or so to centralize all answers/actions.
I also believe there should a section:
5) Are there any other (better or not) ways of settling this in a different way ? What I'm thinking of:
- simply someone to talk to Tom on behalf of the group and see what's really happening
- an agency for consumer protection or something like this (small claims court ? )
- debt collection company
- private investigator/debt collector
Would be interested in a percentage deal as well (debt collectors with commission only in case of success).
2) I think it's enough if we just add the poll numbers/claims in posts as a first step.
3) Evidence will consist mainly of emails, I have the site pages saved, but they were probably modified in the meantime.
I believe you should update your first post as we go on, or maybe we could use a wiki or so to centralize all answers/actions.
I also believe there should a section:
5) Are there any other (better or not) ways of settling this in a different way ? What I'm thinking of:
- simply someone to talk to Tom on behalf of the group and see what's really happening
- an agency for consumer protection or something like this (small claims court ? )
- debt collection company
- private investigator/debt collector
Hopefully something gets done, though I'm not sure how much there is to recover. I'm only out about $100 on currency conversion fees for my CC order, but as someone who was pretty active around BTCFPGA I feel bad for everyone that lost their BTC in this sinkhole.
This could actually be a pretty important legal precedent for BTC if someone does sue Tom, as it's a relatively straightforward case. Tom agreed to sell a physical product denominated in USD, and accepted BTC as a payment method. He never delivered, and hasn't refunded the money or responded to request to. Everyone would have to accept that any judgement would probably be in USD, but given the low burden of proof in small claims court I'd be surprised if a judge didn't give a judgement against Tom.
This could actually be a pretty important legal precedent for BTC if someone does sue Tom, as it's a relatively straightforward case. Tom agreed to sell a physical product denominated in USD, and accepted BTC as a payment method. He never delivered, and hasn't refunded the money or responded to request to. Everyone would have to accept that any judgement would probably be in USD, but given the low burden of proof in small claims court I'd be surprised if a judge didn't give a judgement against Tom.
If it comes down to it, his bitcoin wallet will serve as evidence of if/when he traded bitcoins sent to him. I'd bet that a lawyer will push to argue that Tom pays any gains to victims if he is still holding them in any other wallets.
Maybe BFL will subsidize a lawyer. Since many of those funds recovered may turn around to purchasing BFL products.
||bit
Im interested in this and I also live in EU.
He owes me $1099+$60 for dhl upgrade (i paid him ~95, i expect BTC at the btcusd rate of the day i requested refound and so i want 81.9 BTC back minimum).
He owes me $1099+$60 for dhl upgrade (i paid him ~95, i expect BTC at the btcusd rate of the day i requested refound and so i want 81.9 BTC back minimum).
With 17k it makes sense to visit Tom and convince him to pay back your bitcoins. I think chances are much better with a personal approach than using the legal system. It's much harder to deny refund to an angry person in front of you than to somebody that is far away. Maybe a bounty on Tom's head is the right way to go?!
Not sure what legal recourse will yield, but we should check it out... I have access to free consultation (limited) via work program, I'll report back regarding suggestions make...
I really like the idea of taking to Tom in person, just blows my mind that he's said nothing (again, waiting for this to go away) regarding the outstanding refunds.
Thanks. Where are you located if you don't mind answering? or Are you located in New York or near there?
||bit
Hopefully something gets done, though I'm not sure how much there is to recover. I'm only out about $100 on currency conversion fees for my CC order, but as someone who was pretty active around BTCFPGA I feel bad for everyone that lost their BTC in this sinkhole.
This could actually be a pretty important legal precedent for BTC if someone does sue Tom, as it's a relatively straightforward case. Tom agreed to sell a physical product denominated in USD, and accepted BTC as a payment method. He never delivered, and hasn't refunded the money or responded to request to. Everyone would have to accept that any judgement would probably be in USD, but given the low burden of proof in small claims court I'd be surprised if a judge didn't give a judgement against Tom.
This could actually be a pretty important legal precedent for BTC if someone does sue Tom, as it's a relatively straightforward case. Tom agreed to sell a physical product denominated in USD, and accepted BTC as a payment method. He never delivered, and hasn't refunded the money or responded to request to. Everyone would have to accept that any judgement would probably be in USD, but given the low burden of proof in small claims court I'd be surprised if a judge didn't give a judgement against Tom.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-investigative-service-138866
One shiny BTC should get a comprehensive report at the current BTC price. It might be worthwhile to also look into BTCFPGA and see if it's an LLC, and if Tom controls any other companies with formal registrations.
One shiny BTC should get a comprehensive report at the current BTC price. It might be worthwhile to also look into BTCFPGA and see if it's an LLC, and if Tom controls any other companies with formal registrations.
Thanks Teal. This might be helpful. Still monitoring for interest first. Looks like a lot of lurkers considering the poll numbers.
||bit
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cheap-investigative-service-138866
One shiny BTC should get a comprehensive report at the current BTC price. It might be worthwhile to also look into BTCFPGA and see if it's an LLC, and if Tom controls any other companies with formal registrations.
One shiny BTC should get a comprehensive report at the current BTC price. It might be worthwhile to also look into BTCFPGA and see if it's an LLC, and if Tom controls any other companies with formal registrations.
I have some legal training in the US, I am more than willing to help canvas lawyers for you guys, Tom is a Scammer and should be brought to justice.
This said finding a lawyer to deal with this case will be difficult.
The Case that will help us all is a international case tho, from I think Holland where a judge rules that WoW gold (a digital currency) has real world monetary value, after some school yard bullies beat up a kid after school for his account.
Ideally we need to file this where the majority of the fraud happened, eg. Where Tom's home is or Place of business. Unless we have a majority of users that all lived in one Metro area, (like NYC or Dallas or somewhere).
Another idea might be to see if anyone with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, is a bit coiner, and see if we can get them involved as this would be ground breaking and new case law. Fhe biggest foreseeable issue is showing to a judge to award damaged that any Bitcoin, transactions we did with Tom have actual real world value.
This said finding a lawyer to deal with this case will be difficult.
The Case that will help us all is a international case tho, from I think Holland where a judge rules that WoW gold (a digital currency) has real world monetary value, after some school yard bullies beat up a kid after school for his account.
Ideally we need to file this where the majority of the fraud happened, eg. Where Tom's home is or Place of business. Unless we have a majority of users that all lived in one Metro area, (like NYC or Dallas or somewhere).
Another idea might be to see if anyone with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, is a bit coiner, and see if we can get them involved as this would be ground breaking and new case law. Fhe biggest foreseeable issue is showing to a judge to award damaged that any Bitcoin, transactions we did with Tom have actual real world value.
Thanks. Those sound like some good ideas.
Thanks for offering to do some canvasing. Please do so, and let us know if you find someone promising. The most I looked were around Fulton New York. One lawyer I saw seemed promising, but I noticed he was a defense lawyer.
Any victims of this that are stateside, and interested, let us know your metropolitan area. I might post a new survey above to screen for members in metro areas soon.
About the EFF. Wouldn't it be easy to prove to a judge that bitcoin has real value by showing the historical price & trade volume on MtGox? Never-the-less, if anyone is a member, let us know so that can be considered.
||bit
Don't be pissed off.. I was one of the first to ask for a refund (I requested it on Jan 7, just prior to the shitstorm which I anticipated).
I remember just pondering that drunken "asian benefactors" email, asking myself if I'm not falling for a scammer, then a sudden burst of realization, and 5 minutes later I was and asking for my btc back.
When I posted about it, some of Tom's other "customers" accused of panicking over nothing, that relax, I'll get my money etc. I haven't heard anything out of those peeps since. I believe the only reason I got BTC back was Dave & LukasBradley convinced Tom, as per that epic update. That they had to "convince" Tom to execute BTC refunds that day, should say everything, for you guys still waiting to get anything back.
I'm not complaining about the 52+ BTC so hard since I know there are many others more screwed than I. Still, I want the rest of my BTC back and Tom can expect me to hound him for it until I have it. I don't care if BTC is $10,000 USD at that point... he owes me 52.758BTC..
I remember just pondering that drunken "asian benefactors" email, asking myself if I'm not falling for a scammer, then a sudden burst of realization, and 5 minutes later I was and asking for my btc back.
When I posted about it, some of Tom's other "customers" accused of panicking over nothing, that relax, I'll get my money etc. I haven't heard anything out of those peeps since. I believe the only reason I got BTC back was Dave & LukasBradley convinced Tom, as per that epic update. That they had to "convince" Tom to execute BTC refunds that day, should say everything, for you guys still waiting to get anything back.
I'm not complaining about the 52+ BTC so hard since I know there are many others more screwed than I. Still, I want the rest of my BTC back and Tom can expect me to hound him for it until I have it. I don't care if BTC is $10,000 USD at that point... he owes me 52.758BTC..
I was only refunded 311.612 BTC so my refund was short 52.758BTC.
when did you request your refund? if after Jan 20th, i just got super pissed off... (lucky for you though, which is awesome)
My understanding is that Tom never converted our BTC into USD, therefore we should get our entire BTC back, not some conversion where Tom profits from the jump in price vs USD.
Not sure where this would go legally (I assume the authorities don't recognize BTC) but for the record:
I paid
for order #945 88.87 BTC
# 1375 91.8902 BTC
# 1480 93.3898 BTC
# 2090 90.22 BTC
TOTAL PAID = 364.37 BTC
I was only refunded 311.612 BTC so my refund was short 52.758BTC.
(I know, I know, I thank my lucky stars I got anything back!!!) But Tom *does* owe me 52.758BTC, I could care less what that's worth in USD, I simply want the rest of the BTC I sent back, since he held it and didn't convert it, that's only fair.
You guys only asking for the USD value, at the point of refund request or whenever, are shortchanging yourselves and the rest of us. Not to mention, it validates Tom's stealing our BTC from us! (For the record, if BTC value dropped, I would still only expect back what I sent him, not something based on an exchange rate). USD is collapsing at an accelerated pace and has been for a long time.
Not sure where this would go legally (I assume the authorities don't recognize BTC) but for the record:
I paid
for order #945 88.87 BTC
# 1375 91.8902 BTC
# 1480 93.3898 BTC
# 2090 90.22 BTC
TOTAL PAID = 364.37 BTC
I was only refunded 311.612 BTC so my refund was short 52.758BTC.
(I know, I know, I thank my lucky stars I got anything back!!!) But Tom *does* owe me 52.758BTC, I could care less what that's worth in USD, I simply want the rest of the BTC I sent back, since he held it and didn't convert it, that's only fair.
You guys only asking for the USD value, at the point of refund request or whenever, are shortchanging yourselves and the rest of us. Not to mention, it validates Tom's stealing our BTC from us! (For the record, if BTC value dropped, I would still only expect back what I sent him, not something based on an exchange rate). USD is collapsing at an accelerated pace and has been for a long time.
When calculating please remember these are bitcoins transacted when the value was much different, if those were still held in bitcoin now the value will be substantially higher. Impossible for us to know of course? (Edit: Unless this were to come out in a trial, the damages could be substantially higher)
Jump to: