Topic: Lightning Network Observer - page 16. (Read 13809 times)

a somewhat curious story was made public yesterday by the swede Oliver Koblizek via twitter. he was suddenly shown the option to complete the payment process with the bluewallet installed on his mobile phone when using the state app for public transport in sweden 'jlt nya'. being a Bitcoiner, he was of course directly curious, so he selected the option and a valid bus ticket was issued to him, as expected. A short time later, the option was no longer available.
here you can read the whole story on twitter👉https://twitter.com/Stromens/status/1625457745628475392

a. lightning network.. like avalanche network allows you to lock up bitcoin or litecoin.
so is avalanche "BITCOIN"?
nope.. avalanche is a different network. emphasise the word network beside the word avalanche proves its another network called avalanche
so is lightning "BITCOIN"?
nope.. lightning a different network. emphasise the word network beside the word lightning proves its another network called lightning

bitcoin never leaves the BITCOIN NETWORK

dont even try to suggest bitcoin leaves the bitcoin network, you are just fooling yourself and suggesting bitcoins security model is broke

(need me to list all networks that allow bitcoin to be locked on the bitcoin. and then using the UTXO as reference point on a different network???)
just because bitcoin has a lock... does not mean whatever subnetwork then uses the utxo as a value/funding reference is also a "bitcoin network" (see point (b) below)
(im surprised by now you snake oil salesmen phishing for brand recognition and faked trust and faked security co co-branding with mainnets. have not already tried to imply that because bitcoin (in your fantasy) can be moved to other networks.. but msats are not recognised or movable back to any mainnets that you then (in your fantasy) pretend that msat units are more secure than blockchain units) because they cant/dont leave lightning

b. lightning has no blockchain. has no decentralised consensus to keep nodes aligned to a specific ruleset and nor enforces a strict peg value, etc etc etc..

c. thor turbo has proved you can offer someone msats WITHOUT "locking bitcoin"
"leasing inbound balance" has proven you can have msats without you locking "locking bitcoin"(plus have no key control of those msat payments)

d. the LIGNTNING NETWORK emphasis network. can operate with multiple coins and is not reliant on bitcoin

e. avalanche has more bitcoin pocked to it than lightning does.. .. does this make avalanche "bitcoin" or is it just another subnetwork bridge (layer 2 crossborder platform)

f. those that say its a layer "ontop"
lets take some rational views.
first like domane names. the 'top level domain name' is not the brand but the directing master seed that routes to brands and sends the mas data to where it should
i know fangirls want LN to be this master thing.. much like the IMF is the master reserve for big banks and doesnt want to be considered as the underling network for giftcarsd below the 'be your own bank' EG the lower grade network like virtual visa that can process small pocket money amounts of multiple currencies

but lightning is an underclass network. it cant handle top end reserve amounts
it cant cope with anything more then ~$700 on average
it is not the IMF network. its the virtual visa network

now is visa called "dollar" or is visa just visa allowing processing movement of visa dollars. yep visa dollars are different to bank deposit savings dollars

g. as for the "rounding down"
rounding is for instance stripping prunning cutting the right side significant figures by 3 numbers

however most lightning wallets are not just doing that.
they are without any network wide protocol enforcing it. having other methods.. and most are using
/ 1000
guys what guys.

lets say if you were to round using the strip prune right side by 2 sig figs instead of 3
lets give it a try

8434747948  (right cut by 3)
8434747 notice the rest of the numbers stay the same

now notice trying it using a division method of less than 1000
lets say 500
i guarantee you that you are not going to get
8434747948  ("round by 500")
8434747474 (you hope that it just plays with the end 3 but by half the amount
instead you get
16869495.896

do you now see how math logic is that trimright(X,3)
is different than X/1000

and for emphasis
the /1000 is not even an enforced rule
and it can be changed by any amount

so whether a lightning app does math logic code a "round down" properly by cutting away the right side by 3 or with the lazy bug causing /1000

these can be changed to not be cut right by 3 or /1000, but changed to anything..
meaning different nodes are not set in stone/hardrule protocol where an msat will always be 3significant figures to a sat
which is a bad conversion peg security for any financial system
there is no network strengthened rule set to abide by a set conversion rate
refer to(b)

h.
oh and the last funny.. by introducing RBF, your little crown have been snake oiling the flame by saying dont trist zero confirms relayed on the bitcoin network they re not settled they are not confirmed, blah
but you lot also want to say lightning zero-confirm commitments are to be trusted and are to be treated as being paid (facepalm for multiple reasons)

(1) What is the issue with that? Blockchain is not Bitcoin specific either. These are concepts that are not linked to a coin's name.
(2) Cross-chain atomic swaps work with or without Lightning. https://arxiv.org/abs/2101.12332
(3) As long as you don't exchange your 'Lightning Bitcoin' funds for 'Lightning Litecoin' funds or something else, they are always 'redeemable' for on-chain Bitcoin funds by submitting a channel close transaction. They are always 'linked' to the channel funded with that type of coin on that type of chain. It's not that hard. It's just a different type of contract. You may be aware that the Bitcoin script language allows different types of transactions. LN channel open / close transactions are just transactions. It's no sacrilegious black magic from hell.

That's nice to hear. I find myself using Lightning when it is offered, as well, since it is so convenient to spend anonymously. Since channel balances are not tracked on-chain, anything between channel open and channel close, is orders of magnitude harder to track than on-chain Bitcoin payments. So you're not going to need to mix change after every single little transaction.

In Lightning, you 'open a channel', which means you do 'lock' some balance, but you (even alone, without anyone else), with your own key, can immediately close it in the next block and 'unlock' that balance. No 'praying to someone'. That's where youre analogy is flawed.
Using keys to 'unlock' a script is actually what you do in every single Bitcoin transactions. Locking script and unlocking script. All the time. When you 'spend BTC' in a typical on-chain transaction, you actually lock Bitcoin behind a script that only the owner of the private key generating a given address, owns.
https://learnmeabitcoin.com/technical/p2sh

Just to reiterate: msat being rounded down can lose you at most 999msat, or 0.999sat which is worth nothing right now. Transaction fees will always be higher than 1sat.

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For the record:
I'm not answering for franky because it is pointless (explained it 100 times, he must be very old or something), but for anyone reading this with some intelligence and logic, who got confused by him. If you as a reader are interested in more details about the msats, search in this thread with the right keywords, I explained it all in detail: https://ninjastic.space/search?author=n0nce&content=msat&topic_id=5348270

https://www.microstrategy.com/en/world-2023?CID=7014W00000151ATQAY

heres an observational question for you all.. and please no heavy snake oil sales pitches please, we are beyond that point now.

lets discuss rational concepts and scenarios that actually apply to real world experiences and details and data

1. when a potential user is introduced by asking them to hand in fiat to a service and is given service database balance.. is that "bitcoin"?

2. when same service has an app that converts its service database balance, to an allotment of msat on their app which may[-or may not] have a channel that the service set up x years ago.. but  is currently sidelining funds for a current user this month, whom has no signing or 'previous state' revocation control of said funds(because its new inbound balance).. is that 'bitcoin' from the users point of view during that active channel month, or just a promise of value that "may" get settled?

think logically and rationally with a concept in mind of "not-your-keys-not-your-coin"
please no silly snake oil best case. im using the previous posts tweet advert of strikes service offering to "6million merchants" (strike/clover custodian service) as a case example

We must keep forgetting the part where you somehow got to determine what that looks like for everyone else.  Oh wait, you don't.  Go away, nazi parasite.

funny part is

unless its [6 million new nodes.. with their own channels where 6 million merchants lock their own BTC up to have signature control of Ln liquidity value, where they decide how much to "outbound" to other channels they choose to partner upto..]
then its not introducing 6 million people to anything that even comes close to anything like bitcoin

if the social tweet were true, i say it will be strike hauling a LN liquidity of only a few btc where it sets up ghost channels where strike offers out its outbound balance to users GUI display app... but where strike has full signature control to reduce each outbound balance towards a user, when a user sends a requests strike to lessen the balance towards said customer and request strike use another channel to put balance towards  destination

which is not true bitcoin experience or bitcoin fund control at user level, but its how LN hub models work where the apps calls it "user get inbound balance"

its a shame that a BBB doesnt know what a real bitcoin transaction feels like, and pretends users of LN hubs praying to the hub to move their balance, through a bunch of other middle men negociations along a route.. "is bitcoin"

Boring Baby Below
V                      V

and another big step


https://twitter.com/BitcoinNewsCom/status/1618918198874882048

Not that big a deal but still interesting, the last 2 raffles that I posted in the collectables board that I gave the option of paying for with lightning were bot paid for with lightning. So people here are using it to pay when given the option. Yes, it is a small look at what is going on BUT, who many people would be using it to pay if given that option. Looking at other things in the hardware / collectables / stuff for sale boards here LN is just about never offered as a payment option.


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/raffle-iluvbitcoins-knife-design-3-free-all-spots-paid-by-minerjones-5437025  <-- minerjones paid by LN
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/raffle-john-wick-says-pick-a-spot-for-this-raffle-paid-for-by-kryptowerk-5436054 <-- Kryptowerk paid by LN

-Dave

Isn't it reasonable to make such assumption? Bring me the evidence that support otherwise then.

funny part was the CBDC trials were not about millions of customers with billions of value
.. oh but hang on weight a minute
wasnt LN 7 years ago promoted as the solution to bitcoin scaling to allow millions of users to put their value and transact perfectly..
.. 7 years, and LN still bottlenecks with 16,000 users who only want to spend $800 each on average(1ml stats)

again you fail to even research things, you just want to reply with NO DATA and just stupid speculated crap that came out of your head.

and banks didnt invest in all that infrastructure

they actually got the silly blockstream and ethereum devs to volunteer out open source code(hyperledger committee and consultation groups)

maybe try to actually see what is outside your echo chamber of LN and see what other bridge network systems exist..

there are hundreds of them.. whilst you fools want everyone to patiently wait a few more years for LN promises..

responding to blackhat below
there is a thing called google. its this thing that operates as a search engine.. you type some words in of things you want to find. and googles lists it.

maybe start with words like hyperledger BIS CBDC
need to be spoonfed anymore? or can you learn to feed yourself yet
heck ill give you a tip of the spoon lick.. this forum has a search function and my post history too. you can find the answers easily. as i have explained them before as have others.

separate observation:
funny how you skipped over and avoided things like the other crypto bridge subnetworks launches but didnt want to talk about Ln's  failure to launch

If you're currently whining about lightning's capacity and routing success in 2023, everyday bringing misery in every thread, I can't imagine what you did when lightning wasn't even 3 years old yet.

Brilliant comparison. Banks with millions of customers, billions in reserves, investing in all that infrastructure, managed to do 1 million payments in 3 months, in comparison with a non-sponsored, peer-to-peer network, whose success isn't incentivized by any company, and whose development was and still is voluntary. Not flawed at all.

other bridging subnetworks managed it in less than a year.
LN took over 2.3 years

heck even banks testing out CBDC managed 1m payments in a 3month trial

bitcoin does ~1700 tx per 10mins
meaning 1million in 4 days

oh and bitcoin itself initially took 2 years from birth because
emphasis: it had no existing fame nor crypto userbase to steal/offramp from.. yet with all the LN promo "is bitcoin" phishing/ co branding.. Ln didnt even manage to grow quicker then bitcoins launch

and no this is not a time for you folk to campaign a spam session of sending/ creating meaningless payment events like a game of tennis to fake payment counts

The growing demand and awareness among people about bitcoin has led to growth of LN channels with people spending small amounts to buy stuff and make transactions with it.As the term bitcoin is becoming more popular and all want to have some profits from it with experience of financial freedom we are seeing such growth.

The chart depicts how the time period is getting short to gain next million which corresponds to the statement that " making first million is the hardest one" so we will see more growth in LN also in coming time.

As we have already seen the network capacity being increased with lot of bitcoins and more nodes support but as per charts the Layer 2 solution is being in good use as you can open a channel easily and avoid the fees each time but this is usually where it's accepted by small merchants as well.



Tweet

So we see how it's growing fast and in coming days we will see more charts indicating the growth of LN and users for the same.

Here's the thing: what you're saying isn't worthy of debate.

Its just you expressing the same opinion for the thousandth time. There's nothing to debate as its all been said before and nothing has changed or will change. You're free to continue on with your mindset; obviously nobody can stop or alter that.

Have a great day.

you lot BS alot of fiction using social drama..

i however use statistics. data, code..
it is not me that needs to concede.. code and data speaks for itself
funny how the LN crowd prefer social media taunts

its you that needs to look outside your fluffy promotion material of empty promise. and actually learn something

have you tried yet? nope. and so the rhetoric of your Ln flock/folks false claims continue because all you lot can do is snake oil sale unmet hope and dreams. thus i need to keep poking you lot with reminders. reminders of things that can be backed up by stats, data, until you are ready to observe

i do laugh that you think im the only one

even though statistics show that people would rather lock btc value up and then use other bridge subnetworks. rather then LN

but you will ignore those stats

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also i talk on this forum about a heck of alot of different topics
you only notice the LN ones because they hurt you soo much so they stick in your head like PTSD

maybe try to be prepared to learn rather then defend the silly network that had 7 years to prove it can meet its promises, but failed

so come on can you even remember what LN promises were. and if they were achieved.. come on. atleast try to have a good LN specific data debate to reply with and not a social drama name call

..
edit to reply to below
well everything you lot say about LN has been said before so your own advice is you dont need to keep snake oil selling it in multiple topics

funny part is i reveal more issues and you lot cant even debate them and only want to silence me. which is not even a method of discussion

oh and did i ever mention the stats of other bridging subnetworks offering similar features before this week. nope. but your folks lack of observations and preference of ignorance has been plentiful. you dont even want to be aware of certain things, which is not even good policy for your own risk awareness of flaws, let alone to realise what your are advertising to others, nor how shameful your dreamy and hope adverts have become

so again the challenge. can you lot even remember LN's promises. and can you factually prove those promises have been met aft 7 years of you lot waiting

A lot of people believe Bitcoin has always been a failure and still is. They're just not on this forum.


I dunno about that. Your "research" seems to consist of you repeating your same tired opinions ad nauseum while telling everyone to "do research." We all know exactly how you feel on the issue and that your views are unwavering. Your whole personality is based around a steadfast resolve to learn nothing, never concede on any point and never incorporate new knowledge into your world view.

Trust me, people get it: franky1 doesn't approve of LN. You needn't remind us any further.

7 years............. yawn
   still flawed YAWN
imagine if bitcoin network was released in 2009. and in 2016 only had maybe 16,000 users playing around with only 5200 coins between them. where it was bottle necking
for even amounts of say $30 and above

would you say bitcoin was a success.. or a failure to launch

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other development teams have seen the flaws of LN, seen which flaws wont and cant ever be patched. and instead started on their own bridge subnetworks. and those networks which are less than 2 years old have more liquidity in them

so if 7 years is not the date to call it a day. when will you call it a day

LN is not the solution, devs need to start a fresh subnetwork that actually functions and does what the wider community want and need. or just let bitcoin scale instead of this endless stalling tactic of "be patient"

i dont use ethereum(never have) or their co-branded, subset protocols of their subnetwork bridges(that also bridge to bitcoin)
and yet they are gaining alot more traction than LN

im a bitcoin maximalist. but friggen hell i do do my research with eyes wide open and not in dreams and hopes.

and im not happy with the silly games being played in bitcoin dev politics/corporate sponsorships of bitcoin devs pushing things that are not helping bitcoin grow but just stalling progress with YEARS of empty promises of solutions that are never met

---

ok heres a rationalisation (eye opening opportunity) challenge for you folk
can you lot even remember, lets say the top 3 "solutions for bitcoin" Ln was promoting back in the 2015-17 days

if so reply with them and your opinions of if they have been met or not

And solar power will never be viable because it is not viable now.

Electric cars will never be viable because they are not viable now.

We should just give up trying to make any kind of technological improvements because they are not viable right now.

when you lot realise that LN is not bitcoin specific..

and is just another bridge subnetwork for multiple mainnets.. it will hit you hard
especially when other bridge subnetworks have more liquidity (avalance has 5700btc pegged, only 1 year old)

you will start to see more flaws in LN
do you guys even know why people are preferring to lock bitcoin up and using the UTXO as a peg to open tokens balance for payments on eth-20 to a tune of
5700 on avalance
173,000 on wbtc

where LN only has 5200
maybe if you observe the flaws, bugs and lack of monetary policy of LN to secure said pegged value in LN. you see why LN is falling on the sidelines while other subnetwork bridges are outpacing LN

oh and their tx per year stats.. their "time to 1mill tx" stats.. you might want to check their stats.. and then you will feel that empty feeling that LN is not living upto promises/expectations

heres another funny reminder
more people have moved btc value into taproot in just over a dozen months compared to to LN locked value
yep taproot based systems have about 23k and climbing

seem more people prefer taproot or erc-20 based collectives more then the LN collective

it pays to observe stats in their full context from source and in comparison to other systems promising similar features.. and not just be picky about something you seen on social media

and before you all cry that LN "is bitcoin"
try to read about the "cross platform" cross blockchain swaps
and i mean the original. not the updated one to brand phish bitcoin centric word play for hype

observe LN not through the narrow utopian eyelids of bestcase hope and dream. but in the factual state of LN 7 years in.. in comparison to all other bridge subnetworks similar offerings and ability.