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Topic: Long term advance notice! - page 7. (Read 3720 times)

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
June 07, 2019, 05:36:11 PM
#91
The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime.  Because of that, I wanted to design it to support every possible transaction type I could think of.  The problem was, each thing required special support code and data fields whether it was used or not, and only covered one special case at a time.  It would have been an explosion of special cases.  The solution was script, which generalizes the problem so transacting parties can describe their transaction as a predicate that the node network evaluates.  The nodes only need to understand the transaction to the extent of evaluating whether the sender's conditions are met.

The script is actually a predicate.  It's just an equation that evaluates to true or false.  Predicate is a long and unfamiliar word so I called it script.

The receiver of a payment does a template match on the script.  Currently, receivers only accept two templates: direct payment and bitcoin address.  Future versions can add templates for more transaction types and nodes running that version or higher will be able to receive them.  All versions of nodes in the network can verify and process any new transactions into blocks, even though they may not know how to read them.
hero member
Activity: 697
Merit: 520
June 07, 2019, 05:15:22 PM
#90
And you are right about this not being theft in the Core blockchain, since it would be rolled back.

There could never be a theft on the "Core" blockchain in the first place because the vast majority of the network is enforcing consensus rules that would see that theft as invalid. Violating those rules is a hard fork. Very very very few nodes on the network are left running software that would validate this miner fork. We're literally talking about dozens of listening nodes. The vast majority of the network will literally just ignore the fork because it's just an invalid chain like any other hard fork.

Your node doesn't pay attention to what Bitcoin Cash does, does it? Of course not! It's irrelevant to Bitcoin! The same thing applies here. Wink

The "Core" chain would be unaffected (except for maybe some congestion from the attacking miners leaving the network, same as Bitcoin Cash) so there would never be any rollback required. Anyone who would have you believe the Bitcoin network would accept miners stealing Segwit outputs is trying to bamboozle you. This would never ever happen based on the node distribution we see today.

Meanwhile, the forking miners would need to pray that everyone installs software to remove Segwit. Who in their right mind would do that? Cheesy

The whole scheme is at odds with the incentive design in Bitcoin. Ask around. Nobody is going to adopt a hard fork where the miners steal all the Segwit outputs from users. They'll just keep running Core like the vast, vast majority of the network already does, and everything will remain as normal. Don't be bamboozled by these frauds fooling you into thinking this attack could work. They are feeding you misinformation completely at odd with how network consensus works. Anyone with a basic technical understanding of Bitcoin's consensus rules and node distribution understands this.

At most, if you have some coins in 1xxxx addresses you might get some airdrop coins on the hard fork chain that you can sell. Chances are they will have no value, but anything is possible!!
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 502
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
June 07, 2019, 04:38:58 PM
#89
I never thought I'd see a group of people more gullible and pathetic than the BSV crowd but, WOW. "There's hardly any reachable nodes on the network but secretly everybody is running SATOSHI'S IMMUTABLE 0.5.3 PROTOCOL and is waiting to hard fork to our secret shitcoin and dump their Core shitcoins!" Right........ lol. You fuckin short bus morons.

"But but the power-law distribution, and Segwit booty, and I personally know people who are just aching to dump all their Core shitcoins!!!!" Sounds really compelling lololol. You should start a Youtube channel from your parent's basement, we're all dying to see how far your conspiracy theories have gotten you in life!
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 07, 2019, 09:51:18 AM
#88
So, what would happen, in a market perspective, is that both chains would start with the same value

Disagree. The stock-to-flows valuation model is predicative and it instructs that the immutable coin with known future flow of token supply is exponentially more valuable than a mutable protocol.

I said they would start with the same value, at the time of the fork, not that they would keep the same value.

We need to weigh down human behaviour on this event.

Only the behavior of the wealthy matter. The vast majority do not matter at all. They are worthless. 50% of the population only has 15% of the wealth. The top few percent has 34% of the wealth.

Ok, but how can we compare this to what happened to ethereum? I know they are different, but in the case of ethereum, the forked chain became the main one after some time. Today ethereum values 30x more than ethereum classic. Is there some difference (related to the PoW) in relation to ethereum?

Investors dont have a clue about immutability in the protocol

Then they won't be investors for very long. They will be bankrupted former speculators who did not do due diligence.

The wealthy investors know what is going on. Craig told them. I told them. The trilema.com Bitcoin millionaire told them. Etc.. Word gets around amongst the uber wealthy.

But isnt Blockstream owned by AXA, which is linked to the Bilderberg group? There are probably some banking interests in LN. Personally I believe it will be a tug-of-war between the two chains, thats why I believe they will start on the same foot.

PoS

Proof-of-shit aka proof-of-nothing has no value. All PoS shit will go to 0 eventually.

Fine. But the entire debt-based fiat system is based on stacking. Fiat money was debased from gold for decades, and its lack of PoW creates inflation. In a PoW perspective, fiat money have a negative value, as each bank note is a debt certificate.

What could prevent some banking cartel from going crypto and using stacking to reinvent their own system? Just food for thought.

Anyway, this whole discussion is the old bickering between developers and miners again, nothing new on the front. To maximize profits, it would be better to hold both coins for some time and see which one have a better valuation, then dump the other.

And you are right about this not being theft in the Core blockchain, since it would be rolled back.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 07, 2019, 05:26:43 AM
#87
So, what would happen, in a market perspective, is that both chains would start with the same value, but the one forked by Core (technically, Core would have to rollback, to reverse the stealing of Segwit outputs

Why would you assume they start with the same value? Did Bitcoin Cash start with the same value? How about Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, etc?


This situation would be entirely different from the other forks. There was no theft when bitcoin cash, gold, etc, were forked. In the case of theft, it would be similar to what happened to ethereum.

When the DAO hack happened, ethereum forked from the main chain, to reverse the hack, and the main chain (at that point) became "ethereum classic". Eventually ethereum became the main chain, gaining more value than the classic version.

Easy to predict such gains in un-regulated / dark / ano / anarcho Environments , isn't it ?
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 07, 2019, 05:22:49 AM
#86
So, what would happen, in a market perspective, is that both chains would start with the same value, but the one forked by Core (technically, Core would have to rollback, to reverse the stealing of Segwit outputs

Why would you assume they start with the same value? Did Bitcoin Cash start with the same value? How about Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, etc?


This situation would be entirely different from the other forks. There was no theft when bitcoin cash, gold, etc, were forked. In the case of theft, it would be similar to what happened to ethereum.

When the DAO hack happened, ethereum forked from the main chain, to reverse the hack, and the main chain (at that point) became "ethereum classic". Eventually ethereum became the main chain, gaining more value than the classic version.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 07, 2019, 05:20:30 AM
#85
BSV is the clean code road map that finally removes any dev midlle men - and we will not nee to talk about boring stable protocols from now on


I explained to you upthread that adaptive block size is not trustless, decentralized. Thus neither BCH nor BSV are the original, immutable Bitcoin. And thus with BSV what you get is an exciting, mutable shitcoin akin to silver instead of gold. See the chart below for the horrible valuation of silver versus gold…

BSV will totally remove the block size cap and it should not be a Consensus param anyway -  All trxs should just be checked for Bitcoin relevant Consensus (double spend, inflation model,..)  - a bulk cap is stupid tech dept that is already in by phsical and economical constraints. Removing that again was a no-brainer for anti-hobby node fraction anyway.

Bitcoin
Scalable
Version

is the only BitCoin accepted by global industry - due to Copyright and legal purpose.

No more fancy back-loop 'read upthread' analysis needed  

 Grin

Edit: I fully understand why now all hobby node runners and hobby analysts are screaming their lungs off - sorry.

hero member
Activity: 697
Merit: 520
June 07, 2019, 04:54:20 AM
#84
So, what would happen, in a market perspective, is that both chains would start with the same value, but the one forked by Core (technically, Core would have to rollback, to reverse the stealing of Segwit outputs

Why would you assume they start with the same value? Did Bitcoin Cash start with the same value? How about Bitcoin Gold, Bitcoin Diamond, etc?

The Segwit outputs can't be stolen on the "Core" chain because that would violate the consensus rules. No rollback would be needed. The "Core" chain would continue normally like nothing ever happened.

That's why the whole scenario doesn't make sense. The Segwit outputs can only be "stolen" on a separate hard fork that copies the original chain's ledger. If history is any guide, the market will just treat that Bitcoin hard fork like worthless garbage. The only reason to download the client at all would be to dump your airdropped coins.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 07, 2019, 04:35:36 AM
#83
In a market perspective, the consequences of such stealing of Segwit outputs would be like what happened to the ethereum blockchain. Ethereum forked after the DAO hack, rolling back and thus, having the shortest blockchain at that point. The original one (that is, the one retaining the original chain after the DAO hack) was hence called "ethereum classic". However, both investors and miners flocked to the forked chain, and it gained more hashrate, surpassing the classic chain both in value and power. It also retained its original name.

So, what would happen, in a market perspective, is that both chains would start with the same value, but the one forked by Core (technically, Core would have to rollback, to reverse the stealing of Segwit outputs, thus forking like ethereum did) would receive more value, even if dont go straight to a PoS model at first.

We need to weigh down human behaviour on this event. Investors dont have a clue about immutability in the protocol, they dont even know how the protocol works, so they would mistrust the miners, and in such a way that it would put the PoW model into question. It could even affect the altcoin market, with several coins switching to a PoS model. Notice that, right now, ethereum is going to a hybrid between PoS and PoW, and this give a clue of what would happen to bitcoin in case of this attack.

The PoS model would also attract institutional money. Banks gained power through stacking in the debt-based fiat system. They dont like bitcoin because they dont have more power than the miners over it. The miners would lose their power if they steal the Segwit outputs, and ultimately, the theft would be reversed, like it happened with ethereum. So, I believe this wont happen at all, unless the miners want to consciously end their business. If the electrical companies benefit from mining, I dont see why this should happen.

But in case it happens, it would be better to have most of your output in legacy addresses, as this would maximize the airdrop. People who only hold in Segwit adresses would not receive coins from the miners chain, as their coins would be the ones stolen on that chain.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
June 07, 2019, 02:15:06 AM
#82
You idiots haven't even bothered to discuss mining incentives as pertaining to actual users, post-fork.

You've based this entire absurd theory on mining rewards at existing prices! That's beyond absurd! Miners on your shitcoin won't be mining billions in value. Who is going to put bids on exchanges for that shitcoin? It would be dumped to hell immediately and become incredibly unprofitable to mine.

You are so arrogant that you refuse to learn about the backtested model that gives Bitcoin its valuation. Thus you’re boastfully ignorant about what the real BTC is worth. Fuck exchanges and all your nonsense about what you think gives Bitcoin value. Go study the math of the backtested model which I linked for you, so you can put some salve on your eyes, fool.

It's insulting how fucking stupid you are. I can't believe you got some people in here to take you seriously.

You can't "backtest" for value you fucking moron. Value is subjective. There are literally millions of variables that can affect supply and demand hence why economics is not scientific and your retarded theory is not provable. Your absurd projections are the work of a mentally ill child. The fact that you think value could even be studied in this way really shows how disconnected you are from reality.

Keep thinking that miners can steal everyone's money in a hard fork, and that investors are going to line up to buy them back. LOL.

How is your shitcoin immutable?

Lol. You have no reading comprehension.

Which address format is the air-drop? Duh.

That was all explained in the Steemit posts which you do not even bother to read or you’re reading comprehension is so low that you can’t even grok the logic in what you read.

WTF does immutability have to do with address format?

Miners rolling back chains, removing consensus rules so they can steal money from users......that's all "immutable" to you.

"But using a P2SH address is heresy that most be punished for being an attack on Satoshi's immutable protocol!!!11!!1"

I can't believe I thought for a moment that you might have something interesting to say. I realize now you've built up this whole bizarre fantasy on the basis of zero evidence and incredibly fragile logic that's at complete odds with Bitcoin's game theoretical history.

I can't continue engaging with someone so delusional. There's just nothing to gain here. Good luck man, you're really going to need it.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
June 06, 2019, 09:20:47 PM
#81
Quote from: Shelby Moore
Actually take some time to read the following two linked posts and understand that the death of the Core shitcoin is 100% economically assured:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@zoidsoft/psa991 <--- @zoidsoft has been a s/w engineer his entire life, read his numeric economic analysis

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/ps965c

There is not a single iota of logic or evidence that proves your point in those useless, rambling posts. Chock full of retarded assumptions with no basis like:

Quote
I'm thinking that once the Segwit booty exceeds 50% of the total BTC in existence, that's when it will happen. If I could just mathematically model the flow into segwit somehow, I might be able to extrapolate when.

At the 50% mark, the value of BTC Core and BTC legacy will be equal which turns this into something similar to a PoS situation where the majority BTC legacy is assured control.

You are laughably dumb if you eat up this sort unproven illogical garbage. These posts are nothing but empty opinions from people who are obviously completely ignorant of the economic incentives.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
If you are simply stating an opinion and not giving users investment advice, then please put a disclaimer on your allegations that I’m a “nut job”. I have done more research in the past 6 years about crypto than most of all you combined. Enjoy poverty.

You're a nutjob, no disclaimer required. Nobody cares about your "research" because quite obviously you have nothing to show for it besides some laughably stupid Steemit links.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
There was no SegWit “anyone can spend” donations booty to provide the Schelling point. Now there is. Read @zoidsoft’s numbers linked above.

"Oh yeah, derp derp, 50% coins in Segwit addresses? Must be time to fork to that chain nobody is going to use where we steal everyone's coins! Derp derp!" Super convincing game theory. We're all very impressed with you. LOL.

You idiots haven't even bothered to discuss mining incentives as pertaining to actual users, post-fork. You've based this entire absurd theory on mining rewards at existing prices! That's beyond absurd! Miners on your shitcoin won't be mining billions in value. Who is going to put bids on exchanges for that shitcoin? It would be dumped to hell immediately and become incredibly unprofitable to mine.

Somehow you've convinced yourself that airdropping coins to legacy addresses is going to create demand for your coin. Now why would that be? If Bcash taught us anything, airdrops are for dumping.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Anyone who understands where Bitcoin’s monetary valuation comes from as a replacement for gold (make sure you click and look at the charts!):

Then understands that without immutability of the protocol, then the 21 million tokens limit can’t be assured and thus you will end up with a non-monetary valuation such as silver which is now entirely demonetized:

How is your shitcoin immutable? You're proposing a hard fork where miners steal outputs from users on the original fork. That's the complete opposite of immutable.

What you're proposing is yet another Bitcoin hard fork spinoff. What makes you think users would uninstall their Bitcoin software to install the miners fork? Half the economy with Segwit outputs is obviously strongly opposed to that. Everyone else has a strong interest in a resolution where miners don't prove Bitcoin doesn't work by stealing everyone's money. All user incentives, both long term and short, point to heavy opposition to the miners fork.

Bitcoin users can wait days, weeks or longer while miners spend endless millions of dollars attacking Bitcoin and mining their worthless shitcoin chain. All users have to do is wait. Slow block times aren't going to convince Bitcoin users to go against their interests. Miners are the ones who will be squeezed financially into calling the attack off and incentivized to return to the chain where users actually are.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Note to mention that SegWit and LN makes the blockchain insecure, for reasons I have explained else where and will not repeat again now. If you doubt my technological acumen, then that is your stupid mistake.

Sounds really convincing!

When are you actually going to say something that might prove your point?

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Quote from: exstasie
Miners will be spending massive amounts mining a completely worthless chain.
Nonsense. They will be enriched with $billions of donations from idiot snowflakes.


No they won't. Nobody would ever put bids up for this useless shitcoin. There will be zero bid liquidity on exchanges, zero OTC liquidity. In one move, these miners will have publicly destroyed the entire use case for their coin. It doesn't matter how big the mining rewards are since the coins will be worthless at market.

Which is why miners will never engage in this.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Quote from: exstasie
If the attack succeeded (LOL) it would only succeed in destroying trust in all the forks, and all of crypto.

Exactly. All crypto except real, immutable, original, one-and-only Bitcoin.

And that is exactly the way the genius Satoshi planned it to be. And so it shall be. Mark my word.


Why would your shitcoin be immune? Investors are going to conclude that POW doesn't work.

This is the most incredible thing about your theory. You believe investors are going to flock to the very dishonest miners who just robbed them. The truth is, they would dump your shitcoin too, especially since it was just airdropped.

Not to mention that miners will control half the supply on fork day. LOL. Yeah, really attractive for investors! Where can I line up to buy some? Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
June 06, 2019, 02:28:00 PM
#80
Quote from: Shelby
The miners who join Craig in mining Satoshi’s v0.5.3 protocol (which had up until that point been implicitly running alongside of Core, before Core is forced to fork off when the miners start taking the SegWit donations) will receive as donations as many SegWit addresses BTC as they can fit into each block. These are donations because Satoshi’s protocol sees the Core addresses as “pay to anyone” (aka “anyone can spend”). Of course the Core protocol will fork off, but mining Satoshi’s protocol will be so much more profitable.

why would mining "Satoshi’s v0.5.3 protocol" be so much more profitable? that requires mining rewards to have value but the value of these mining rewards would plummet to zero. there would be zero market demand and the airdrop to standard address users would be dumped into any existing bids. (if exchanges even listed this shitcoin at all)

why would anyone want to buy this coin or run its software? it's a fork based on stealing users money. just because it has some hash rate? that won't last long. Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
June 06, 2019, 01:32:50 PM
#79
Its interesting in the way that it could lead to a PoS version of bitcoin. If the miners betray the trust of users, and steal funds from Segwit adresses, the devs will fork it, rollback the theft, and use LN to validate blocks, since LN is dependable on Segwit. This would lead to a PoS version of bitcoin.

On the other hand, we would have the Legacy mainchain keeping the same value of the forked one, due to being the longest chain in a PoW perspective (LN came only in 2017), which was not the case with BCH (which had less hashrate when it forked).

But Im probably wrong, since I dont know all the technicals about it.

It's simpler than that. The vast majority of nodes (and therefore users) would simply ignore such a theft. He is talking about miners attempting to steal outputs going back to the P2SH fork in 2012, not just Segwit. This is in violation of consensus rules at the node level going back years. There are hardly any nodes left on the network that would view the miners' fork as valid. Even if we're just talking about hard forking to violate Segwit, 80% of reachable nodes already enforce Segwit at this time. So the fork would simply be ignored by the Bitcoin network.

Once miners realize no one's coming and they are wasting millions of dollars mining a worthless chain, they will return to the legacy chain. There would be temporarily slower block times on the legacy chain but that's about it.

I don't think miners would risk such an obvious blunder.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 06, 2019, 01:12:48 PM
#78
This message from Shelby is very interesting. The issue is even more complex than what I believe it was.

No it's not. He seems like a nutjob. It's incredible that anyone is still going on about an "anyone-can-spend" attack. He obviously deeply misunderstands the incentives at work in Bitcoin.

No one cares what miners want; they will simply follow what users want. The lead-up to the Segwit fork proved that much. If miners switch to a fork where they steal everyone's coins going back 2012, nobody is going to switch to the miner's fork, LOL. Why would they? Clearly these are dishonest miners who are useless in securing a protocol.

Again, miners follow users, not the other way around. Without users, there are no transaction fees and no speculative value based on future usage. Miners will be spending massive amounts mining a completely worthless chain.

Just like they fell in line with Segwit activation, they will quickly migrate back to the "Core" chain where the vast majority of users will be. No, a bit of temporary congestion and slower block times won't cause anyone to fork to a chain where the protocol incentives obviously don't work to keep miners honest.

If the attack succeeded (LOL) it would only succeed in destroying trust in all the forks, and all of crypto.


Its interesting in the way that it could lead to a PoS version of bitcoin. If the miners betray the trust of users, and steal funds from Segwit adresses, the devs will fork it, rollback the theft, and use LN to validate blocks, since LN is dependable on Segwit. This would lead to a PoS version of bitcoin.

On the other hand, we would have the Legacy mainchain keeping the same value of the forked one, due to being the longest chain in a PoW perspective (LN came only in 2017), which was not the case with BCH (which had less hashrate when it forked).

But Im probably wrong, since I dont know all the technicals about it.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
June 06, 2019, 10:54:09 AM
#77
This message from Shelby is very interesting. The issue is even more complex than what I believe it was.

No it's not. He seems like a nutjob. It's incredible that anyone is still going on about an "anyone-can-spend" attack. He obviously deeply misunderstands the incentives at work in Bitcoin.

No one cares what miners want; they will simply follow what users want. The lead-up to the Segwit fork proved that much. If miners switch to a fork where they steal everyone's coins going back 2012, nobody is going to switch to the miner's fork, LOL. Why would they? Clearly these are dishonest miners who are useless in securing a protocol.

Again, miners follow users, not the other way around. Without users, there are no transaction fees and no speculative value based on future usage. Miners will be spending massive amounts mining a completely worthless chain.

Just like they fell in line with Segwit activation, they will quickly migrate back to the "Core" chain where the vast majority of users will be. No, a bit of temporary congestion and slower block times won't cause anyone to fork to a chain where the protocol incentives obviously don't work to keep miners honest.

If the attack succeeded (LOL) it would only succeed in destroying trust in all the forks, and all of crypto.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 06, 2019, 10:22:48 AM
#76
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1427
June 06, 2019, 05:11:54 AM
#75
This message from Shelby is very interesting. The issue is even more complex than what I believe it was.

The recent versions of the core wallet are only distributing adresses starting with 3. Do anyone know if its possible to generate adresses starting with 1? Most of my stash is on those old "legacy" adresses, but I dont know if any fractions that I move from adresses starting with 3 to these old adresses would be valid (in face of what Shelby explained, assuming its true). Any suggestions?

Through the main Core interface it by default generates an address starting with a 3 but can check a box to generate a bc1 address. I don't see an option anyhere that allows you to generate a legacy format address. I'm not sure if there is a certain command that you can tap into to generate a legacy address, but you can always install a pre Segwit version of core that can be found here; https://bitcoin.org/bin/

Bitcoin Core clients are backwards compatible so you're most likely good to go, the only question is how safe are the older versions today.... If that's not an option then there is Electrum that you can use. They allow you to choose which address format to use.
hero member
Activity: 1694
Merit: 502
★Bitvest.io★ Play Plinko or Invest!
June 06, 2019, 03:11:21 AM
#74
He plans to sell, there are people waiting to buy. This was 6 months ago, and still price is doubled since that time. One of his announcements without realization, that speaks a lot about him. I didnt trust that he is Satoshi from the start, with his actions he just proves that more and more. i dont understand how his bsv coin still lives and who is using it.
jr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 2
June 06, 2019, 01:03:57 AM
#73
This 2018 post will be entertaining when it happens.

Capital C for capitalism. BitCoin.

FUD carrier, nonsense.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 05, 2019, 10:54:55 PM
#72
This message from Shelby is very interesting. The issue is even more complex than what I believe it was.

The recent versions of the core wallet are only distributing adresses starting with 3. Do anyone know if its possible to generate adresses starting with 1? Most of my stash is on those old "legacy" adresses, but I dont know if any fractions that I move from adresses starting with 3 to these old adresses would be valid (in face of what Shelby explained, assuming its true). Any suggestions?
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