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Topic: Long term advance notice! - page 6. (Read 3706 times)

legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 10, 2019, 12:48:16 AM
I guess the only thing I want to reply to is point 2 about centralization. Yes, megagigaterapetablocks will likely result in fewer fully-validating, non-mining entities. It will also likely result in fewer full-stack mining entities. So what?

People keep talking about decentralization as if it is an end in itself. Why? AFAIC, as long as there are no structural barriers to entry by new participants, the network is as decentralized as it need be. If there is no discernible marginal benefit from adding one more participant to the network, then by definition further decentralization is of no benefit.

And quite frankly, all public blockchains -- to the extent that said blockchain is economically significant -- will centralize thusly - at least with respect to mining. How many parties make up 51% of BTC hashpower? Four. Already.

Not to mention the fact that non-mining nodes provide zero benefit to the network anyhow. If you have sufficient economic interest to be a first-class tx creator, then fine. Pony up for a validating client. But don't delude yourself that your participation brings any benefit to anyone but yourself.

By having megagigaterapetablocks you are giving full control of blockchain audit to the "operators". I guess the only way some people would understand why centralization is bad is when forces collude to censor certain transactions, such as donating to Wikileaks or anything else that wouldn't comply with what they consider a morally correct transaction.

All public blockchains -- to the extent that said blockchain is economically significant -- will centralize thusly - at least with respect to mining. How many parties make up 51% of BTC hashpower? Four. Already.
sr. member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 297
Bitcoin © Maximalist
June 10, 2019, 12:41:07 AM
When this 51% defense eventuates it will be epic, not popcorn time but foundation for movie. 
Hashpower collapse, reorgs, empty blocks, political messages......
Segshit address coins gone, non segshit address coins traded at crazy low prices.
People losing massive amounts, angry..... Craig, the Honeybadger will give a shit and just will reclaim protocol.
legendary
Activity: 1610
Merit: 1183
June 09, 2019, 05:58:11 PM
I guess the only thing I want to reply to is point 2 about centralization. Yes, megagigaterapetablocks will likely result in fewer fully-validating, non-mining entities. It will also likely result in fewer full-stack mining entities. So what?

People keep talking about decentralization as if it is an end in itself. Why? AFAIC, as long as there are no structural barriers to entry by new participants, the network is as decentralized as it need be. If there is no discernible marginal benefit from adding one more participant to the network, then by definition further decentralization is of no benefit.

And quite frankly, all public blockchains -- to the extent that said blockchain is economically significant -- will centralize thusly - at least with respect to mining. How many parties make up 51% of BTC hashpower? Four. Already.

Not to mention the fact that non-mining nodes provide zero benefit to the network anyhow. If you have sufficient economic interest to be a first-class tx creator, then fine. Pony up for a validating client. But don't delude yourself that your participation brings any benefit to anyone but yourself.

By having megagigaterapetablocks you are giving full control of blockchain audit to the "operators". I guess the only way some people would understand why centralization is bad is when forces collude to censor certain transactions, such as donating to Wikileaks or anything else that wouldn't comply with what they consider a morally correct transaction.

The main reason Bitcoin has value is the fact that it works irrespective of any legal frameworks. CSW misses this main premise.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 09, 2019, 04:18:33 PM
The UASF non-mining node army is ostensibly what pressured the miners into bending over and accepting Segwit. So history has shown that they can indirectly provide benefit, depending on what you'd consider a benefit.

That is certainly a possibility. Why miners would bother listening to what a sybillable agglomeration of entities that have no demonstrable relationship to economic power is an exercise in understanding delusional stupidity. But there it is.

So yes. In at least one instance, it has been demonstrated that a detriment can be foisted upon the network by PoSM. But in no way was this demonstrative of forcing a benefit upon the network via the power of non-mining fully-validating entities.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 09, 2019, 12:53:20 PM
I guess the only thing I want to reply to is point 2 about centralization. Yes, megagigaterapetablocks will likely result in fewer fully-validating, non-mining entities. It will also likely result in fewer full-stack mining entities. So what?

People keep talking about decentralization as if it is an end in itself. Why? AFAIC, as long as there are no structural barriers to entry by new participants, the network is as decentralized as it need be. If there is no discernible marginal benefit from adding one more participant to the network, then by definition further decentralization is of no benefit.

And quite frankly, all public blockchains -- to the extent that said blockchain is economically significant -- will centralize thusly - at least with respect to mining. How many parties make up 51% of BTC hashpower? Four. Already.

Not to mention the fact that non-mining nodes provide zero benefit to the network anyhow. If you have sufficient economic interest to be a first-class tx creator, then fine. Pony up for a validating client. But don't delude yourself that your participation brings any benefit to anyone but yourself.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 09, 2019, 12:41:38 PM
I have read somewhere that BSV have a built-in code that allows law enforcement to freeze any asset,...

Oh, you've read somewhere, eh? Have you read the code? No?

Right. Perpetuating bullshit propaganda, you are.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 09, 2019, 12:18:00 PM
Another missive from Shelby:


Craig seems sincere but perhaps he’s just a good actor. I loved his argument at the end about equality in law is the antithesis of equality in outcomes. That is a high IQ conceptualization. Kudos. I rarely have the patience to watch a 1 hour video.

The flaws I see in his reasoning:

1. Recording of all data so that omniscient governments can be held accountable is totalitarianism because accountability does nothing to fix the Iron Law of Political Economics which insures that democracy will always be about selling infinite debt to infinite wants. Transparency of data can’t rectify that flaw of democracy. So given the [Weberian definition of government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence), removing our ability to be private means absolute enslavement. Governance will become an Orwellian winner-take-all 666 if we follow Craig’s naivete.

2. The “solution” of BSV for transaction volume scaling is essentially centralization. Thus the outcome of totalitarian control or failure due to infighting due to the inability for one mining/dev group to subjugate the will of another.

So in short, Craig’s Vision (an impostor pretending to be Satoshi’s Vision) is worthless. He either knows this, or is incredibly naive.


Please forward my criticisms to Craig.

Btw, I debated Craig a couple years ago in one of his private slack channels and they ended up banning me because I was winning all the arguments. Go ask @kLee et al.

I'll reply downthread

1. The argument is that govs can / must globally compete and the open ledger is the correct way how to do. ( see Swissy regulation here...)

2. We both know that profitable systems ALWAYS centralize but profit is the only working incentive to keep Bitcoin stable and valuable to all users. The only repulsive force that works against the profit attractor is maximum fricktion gained by max openess for any operational risks including legal risks that e.g. are mainly responsible to break up chinese mining cartells atm.  These risks incl competition / the race to best tech etc will break up any centralization over long term perspective.  -> best thing we can do is vote for the simplest stable global legal open protocol in existance i.o. to give any potential competitor the chance to disrupt mining cartells.   We know that works fine.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 09, 2019, 11:27:56 AM
Another missive from Shelby:


Craig seems sincere but perhaps he’s just a good actor. I loved his argument at the end about equality in law is the antithesis of equality in outcomes. That is a high IQ conceptualization. Kudos. I rarely have the patience to watch a 1 hour video.

The flaws I see in his reasoning:

1. Recording of all data so that omniscient governments can be held accountable is totalitarianism because accountability does nothing to fix the Iron Law of Political Economics which insures that democracy will always be about selling infinite debt to infinite wants. Transparency of data can’t rectify that flaw of democracy. So given the [Weberian definition of government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence), removing our ability to be private means absolute enslavement. Governance will become an Orwellian winner-take-all 666 if we follow Craig’s naivete.

2. The “solution” of BSV for transaction volume scaling is essentially centralization. Thus the outcome of totalitarian control or failure due to infighting due to the inability for one mining/dev group to subjugate the will of another.

So in short, Craig’s Vision (an impostor pretending to be Satoshi’s Vision) is worthless. He either knows this, or is incredibly naive.


Please forward my criticisms to Craig.

Btw, I debated Craig a couple years ago in one of his private slack channels and they ended up banning me because I was winning all the arguments. Go ask @kLee et al.

I'll reply downthread


I have read somewhere that BSV have a built-in code that allows law enforcement to freeze any asset, on suspicion of money laundering. I just imagined that being used by tyrannical governments, which could simply label its critics as "criminals" and start freezing their assets stored in BSV. This is just another version of the current statist model, nothing would change. At least Craig is being transparent about his intentions, he dont hide his coin is designed to fuel totalitarianism.
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 09, 2019, 11:18:43 AM
Another missive from Shelby:


Craig seems sincere but perhaps he’s just a good actor. I loved his argument at the end about equality in law is the antithesis of equality in outcomes. That is a high IQ conceptualization. Kudos. I rarely have the patience to watch a 1 hour video.

The flaws I see in his reasoning:

1. Recording of all data so that omniscient governments can be held accountable is totalitarianism because accountability does nothing to fix the Iron Law of Political Economics which insures that democracy will always be about selling infinite debt to infinite wants. Transparency of data can’t rectify that flaw of democracy. So given the [Weberian definition of government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence), removing our ability to be private means absolute enslavement. Governance will become an Orwellian winner-take-all 666 if we follow Craig’s naivete.

2. The “solution” of BSV for transaction volume scaling is essentially centralization. Thus the outcome of totalitarian control or failure due to infighting due to the inability for one mining/dev group to subjugate the will of another.

So in short, Craig’s Vision (an impostor pretending to be Satoshi’s Vision) is worthless. He either knows this, or is incredibly naive.


Please forward my criticisms to Craig.

Btw, I debated Craig a couple years ago in one of his private slack channels and they ended up banning me because I was winning all the arguments. Go ask @kLee et al.

I'll reply downthread
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 09, 2019, 02:34:01 AM
Doesn't matter much what we think locally and at the moment. For u and some others who helped to get Segwit done (first not at all, than with 2x, and later scammed all the 2x away,...). Sure noobs and newbees still buying that crap but that potential seems to dry out with bigger industry checking out that scam.

Time moves on, take ur local stand as u can, the world is not under ur control

BitCoin didn't start as a ticker and didn't start with Segshit.

Netscape is gone as well.

We ll see

I'm open to the possibility that Bitcoin might be dethroned by another coin. I doubt this will be accomplished by hard forking Bitcoin though. The market has shown increasingly less interest with every new hard fork that comes along.

So that puts these forking miners in a difficult position. They have two options:

(a) Fork off and get ignored by the entire market
(b) 51% attack Bitcoin in hopes of getting noticed

Choice (b) would cost millions and millions of dollars on an ongoing basis. Bitcoin users would be inconvenienced by having their transactions censored, but the real financial pressure is on the attacking miners. They are the ones burning through endless money trying to attack Bitcoin. Bitcoin users can just wait until miners capitulate or have no money left.

If Bitcoin users all succumbed to a mere censorship attack and switched to the miners' fork, it would unequivocally prove Bitcoin's incentives do not work. If miners merely need to 51% attack the blockchain to force contentious consensus changes, the entire design discussed in Bitcoin's whitepaper is broken. The term "validity" no longer has any meaning with regard to the security design. There would be no difference between 21 million coins and 21 billion coins from the view of consensus rules. Obviously miners can change whatever rules they want and user consensus doesn't matter at all.

I'm guessing that won't happen based on the last decade of Bitcoin's history. If it does, no version of Bitcoin will retain any value. It obviously fails in its only stated purpose.

On a) sum up the maket caps and trading vols of all the cheap payment coins.   Not to be ignored imo. Include also all the legal and compliance actions that are needed and coming to get really global  ... find out that bsv is not the fork . It follows the rules

On b) that is the purpose of that entire threat / Satoshi and friends ( find out how many legends dropped out of bitcointalk with bs take over ...)

Think
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 09, 2019, 02:21:32 AM
If u might be really able of abstract thinking and can for a minute analyze - not checking hashrate and speculation price ( both are related and can be manipulated dynamically esp very at some singular event) - then try to see Segwit was the fork, and the airdrop itself.

Hm

Current hash rate and price don't matter. What matters is compatibility with the legacy protocol and cumulative proof of work.

Segwit is/was compatible with the legacy protocol. It doesn't matter how horrible you think Segwit is. Legacy nodes accept Segwit transactions/blocks as valid. Since the Segwit chain is the valid chain with most accumulated POW, it is the only Bitcoin chain. There is no "parallel" legacy chain; there is only Bitcoin. Shelby bizarrely believes that despite a large majority of the network enforcing Segwit, miners could successfully hard fork Bitcoin to remove Segwit simply by virtue of hash rate.

The market has made abundantly clear over and over with such hard fork spinoffs: they are invalid chains. Hard forks. Spinoffs. Airdrops. Altcoins. Shitcoins. Whatever you want to call them.

Not only does the whole idea ignore what the market has proven repeatedly, but it shows great ignorance of the broad support Segwit has. Segwit activation obviously catalyzed the 2017 bubble; price literally entered the vertical phase of the bubble when miners locked in. Most of the network including major economic nodes are enforcing it.

Yet we are now to believe that overnight, miners alone can hard fork the network, steal half the network's wealth for themselves, and investors are just going to flock to this shitcoin because it's "the one-and-only great Satoshi's immutable protocol?" LOL, what a bunch of delusional crap. Only the most obtuse inbred retards in history could buy into this obvious crock of bullshit!

This is why only tiny groups of uninformed people in their obscure chat rooms and forums buy into this bullshit. Shelby (and Craig Wright) are just exploiting a small number of peoples' great ignorance of Bitcoin's technical aspects and game theory. Shelby obviously has an even (much, much) smaller audience than Craig Wright though, making his plans all the more pathetic looking.

Cumulative work is sth dependant on time as well since if btc price falls to 0 the shit is up again...

There is no profit from old high work blocks if new ones can be gamed for free. Eg all 2nd layer shit are on weakening this.

Actions will be taken at every step in the future and BitCoin is still that young and totally unused.

----

Oh proof of action seen here

All ano trolls (and btc eventually) gonna get destroyed in real world btw


https://youtu.be/OqpwuJw7cxY

And Segwitcoin is the illegal spin off. See my proof upthread so its not disputable after Shelby's rules   Grin
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 08, 2019, 09:44:09 PM
Doesn't matter much what we think locally and at the moment. For u and some others who helped to get Segwit done (first not at all, than with 2x, and later scammed all the 2x away,...). Sure noobs and newbees still buying that crap but that potential seems to dry out with bigger industry checking out that scam.

Time moves on, take ur local stand as u can, the world is not under ur control

BitCoin didn't start as a ticker and didn't start with Segshit.

Netscape is gone as well.

We ll see

I'm open to the possibility that Bitcoin might be dethroned by another coin. I doubt this will be accomplished by hard forking Bitcoin though. The market has shown increasingly less interest with every new hard fork that comes along.

So that puts these forking miners in a difficult position. They have two options:

(a) Fork off and get ignored by the entire market
(b) 51% attack Bitcoin in hopes of getting noticed

Choice (b) would cost millions and millions of dollars on an ongoing basis. Bitcoin users would be inconvenienced by having their transactions censored, but the real financial pressure is on the attacking miners. They are the ones burning through endless money trying to attack Bitcoin. Bitcoin users can just wait until miners capitulate or have no money left.

If Bitcoin users all succumbed to a mere censorship attack and switched to the miners' fork, it would unequivocally prove Bitcoin's incentives do not work. If miners merely need to 51% attack the blockchain to force contentious consensus changes, the entire design discussed in Bitcoin's whitepaper is broken. The term "validity" no longer has any meaning with regard to the security design. There would be no difference between 21 million coins and 21 billion coins from the view of consensus rules. Obviously miners can change whatever rules they want and user consensus doesn't matter at all.

I'm guessing that won't happen based on the last decade of Bitcoin's history. If it does, no version of Bitcoin will retain any value. It obviously fails in its only stated purpose.

Shelby responds thusly:

Segwit is/was compatible with the legacy protocol.

That is a white lie.

It is true that Satoshi’s protocol will run along side of the Core “soft fork” while Core builds up the booty of donations by fooling users into spending their BTC to “anyone can spend” addresses.

But by creating that booty Core is incompatible with the legacy protocol, because it creates a huge hole in the Nash equilibrium that can only be rectified by the Schelling point of the defense mechanism wherein the miners take the donations and force the Core virus to hardfork off (and force it to fuck off as well).

Your ostensibly either low IQ and/or stubbornness notwithstanding. I have already explained this several times in this thread, but you can not seem to assimilate all the factors into a holistic understanding of reality. If you disagree with unforgeable costliness then you must make a cogent argument as to why.

Since the Segwit chain is the valid chain with most accumulated POW,

Strongly disagree. The SegWit chain has only accumulated the PoW in the past few months, when SegWit actually became significantly adopted. All the accumulated PoW before that was for the legacy addresses.

Shelby bizarrely believes that despite a large majority of the network enforcing Segwit, miners could successfully hard fork Bitcoin to remove Segwit simply by virtue of hash rate.

Do not lie. That is not an accurate summary of what I have written.

The market has made abundantly clear over and over with such hard fork spinoffs: they are invalid chains. Hard forks. Spinoffs. Airdrops. Altcoins. Shitcoins. Whatever you want to call them.

Correct. And thus Core has no appreciable value.

Not only does the whole idea ignore what the market has proven repeatedly, but it shows great ignorance of the broad support Segwit has.

50% of the population has 15% of the wealth. You ostensibly do not understand valuation. Votes and democracy are worthless and create war because they are so non-meritorious.

Segwit activation obviously catalyzed the 2017 bubble;

Nope. The halving did. You refuse to read:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/secrets-of-bitcoin-s-dystopian-valuation-model

Yet we are now to believe that overnight, miners alone can hard fork the network, steal half the network's wealth for themselves,

Again you lie. As if you have not understood anything I have written in my two prior posts.

This is why only tiny groups of uninformed people in their obscure chat rooms and forums buy into this bullshit. Shelby (and Craig Wright) are just exploiting a small number of peoples' great ignorance of Bitcoin's technical aspects and game theory. Shelby obviously has an even (much, much) smaller audience than Craig Wright though, making his plans all the more pathetic looking.

Lol. Read what I wrote about sheep in my prior post. The reason I ridicule sheep, because their fooliness creates totalitarianism and devastation.

Ahhh sigh. So difficult to teach an idiot.

I'm open to the possibility that Bitcoin might be dethroned by another coin. I doubt this will be accomplished by hard forking Bitcoin though. The market has shown increasingly less interest with every new hard fork that comes along.

Correct. And I have already established in my prior post that Core is the hardfork, not vice versa. Satoshi’s protocol can’t hardfork itself, and can not give its accumulated proof-of-work energy to a “soft fork”. I explained why in my prior post.

Additionally, read what Satoshi wrote as quoted in my prior post. Satoshi said that his protocol is immutable for the rest of the lifetime of Bitcoin.

You continue to ignore what gives Bitcoin its valuation (and thus you continue to promulgate Core’s deception and thus you are helping entrap innocent users in the Core scam!). It is not exchanges, impoverished users, etc.. It is only unforgeable costliness, i.e. miners (and the wealthy users) are the only thing that gives Bitcoin value. Hordes of minions (aka the plebs or serfs) are irrelevant. Until you understand that mathematical fact, you will continue to make the same inane, incorrect arguments.

And once we understand that only mining gives a cryptocurrency unforgeable costliness, then we understand that we the people can’t have our own cryptocurrency (i.e. not just for the global elite) until we solve at least 3 technological challenges:

1. ASIC resistant mining
2. Volume scaling in a constant block size, because adaptive block sizes are insecure and/or centralizing
3. Necessary decentralized fractional reserves in a two-tier system (i.e. hodler coin and fractional reserves provably distinct but same unit-of-account) that the banksters can’t control

If someone would create such an altcoin and launch it fairly, perhaps we the people can win? Is it possible to create such an altcoin?

My posts on the subject of ASIC resistant mining:

https://busy.org/@anonymint/psjw06

https://github.com/tevador/RandomX/issues/11#issuecomment-499305867

https://github.com/ifdefelse/ProgPOW/issues/9#issuecomment-499103850

Some of you may know my history, that although I used to be prolific coder in my age 20s and 30s, have been suffering from a discombobulating chronic illness since ~2012 (ended up being at least gut Tuberculosis, Dengue infections, STDs, autoimmunity, diseased spleen and liver, chronic fatigue etc) which basically destroyed my ability to code because my liver does not produce enough energy for my brain. So although I can do spotty work on research, I do not seem to have the sustainable energy and work hours to code something myself anymore (at age 54).  Sad Cry

So that puts these forking miners in a difficult position. They have two options:

(a) Fork off and get ignored by the entire market
(b) 51% attack Bitcoin in hopes of getting noticed

Choice (b) would cost millions and millions of dollars on an ongoing basis. Bitcoin users would be inconvenienced by having their transactions censored, but the real financial pressure is on the attacking miners. They are the ones burning through endless money trying to attack Bitcoin. Bitcoin users can just wait until miners capitulate or have no money left.

You conclude that because you fail to understand unforgeable costliness, which is a concept invented by Nick Szabo for bitgold, before Bitcoin was launched. I explained that in my prior post. Again I urge you to read:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/secrets-of-bitcoin-s-dystopian-valuation-model

The mining farms are controlled by the wealthy who understand unforgeable costliness. So of course they will mine the original, not the hardfork. And thus Core will die. Simple as that. The users will gnash their teeth and scream because Core transactions will not be confirmed, exchanges will fail, the ecosystem will come crashing down. I blogged about this yesterday:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/bitco-i-n-will-collapse-to-usd775-price-soon <--- will be adding more to this blog soon

If Bitcoin users all succumbed to a mere censorship attack and switched to the miners' fork, it would unequivocally prove Bitcoin's incentives do not work. If miners merely need to 51% attack the blockchain to force contentious consensus changes, the entire design discussed in Bitcoin's whitepaper is broken.

If no SegWit booty exists to create the incentive, then no Schelling point exists to cause the miners to go mine where the greater value is.

The incentives of proof-of-work remain extremely secure. It is the deception of Core which creates the huge “anyone can spend” booty, that causes the miners to rally towards the immutable value. This is a clever game theory that Satoshi put in Bitcoin, which protects against such attempts to use politics to take control of Bitcoin. Because we know politics is rent-seeking, kleptocracy (which is precisely what Core has been attempting to do with their Omnibus list of “features” and business models).

IOW, none of the miners can unilaterally 50+% attack Bitcoin. Even Craig’s group only has about 3% of the network hashrate, but that is ostensibly enough to be the leader of the SegWit booty driven Schelling point. The miners need some huge carrot for a Schelling point to exist. Once the Core deception is removed, then Nash equilibrium will be restored and no 50+% attack will be possible.


Obviously miners can change whatever rules they want and user consensus doesn't matter at all.

Nope. The miners can not change anything. They can only enforce Satoshi’s immutable protocol via the clever game theory Satoshi created.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
June 08, 2019, 04:08:20 PM
#99
Doesn't matter much what we think locally and at the moment. For u and some others who helped to get Segwit done (first not at all, than with 2x, and later scammed all the 2x away,...). Sure noobs and newbees still buying that crap but that potential seems to dry out with bigger industry checking out that scam.

Time moves on, take ur local stand as u can, the world is not under ur control

BitCoin didn't start as a ticker and didn't start with Segshit.

Netscape is gone as well.

We ll see

I'm open to the possibility that Bitcoin might be dethroned by another coin. I doubt this will be accomplished by hard forking Bitcoin though. The market has shown increasingly less interest with every new hard fork that comes along.

So that puts these forking miners in a difficult position. They have two options:

(a) Fork off and get ignored by the entire market
(b) 51% attack Bitcoin in hopes of getting noticed

Choice (b) would cost millions and millions of dollars on an ongoing basis. Bitcoin users would be inconvenienced by having their transactions censored, but the real financial pressure is on the attacking miners. They are the ones burning through endless money trying to attack Bitcoin. Bitcoin users can just wait until miners capitulate or have no money left.

If Bitcoin users all succumbed to a mere censorship attack and switched to the miners' fork, it would unequivocally prove Bitcoin's incentives do not work. If miners merely need to 51% attack the blockchain to force contentious consensus changes, the entire design discussed in Bitcoin's whitepaper is broken. The term "validity" no longer has any meaning with regard to the security design. There would be no difference between 21 million coins and 21 billion coins from the view of consensus rules. Obviously miners can change whatever rules they want and user consensus doesn't matter at all.

I'm guessing that won't happen based on the last decade of Bitcoin's history. If it does, no version of Bitcoin will retain any value. It obviously fails in its only stated purpose.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 08, 2019, 03:24:39 PM
#98
If u might be really able of abstract thinking and can for a minute analyze - not checking hashrate and speculation price ( both are related and can be manipulated dynamically esp very at some singular event) - then try to see Segwit was the fork, and the airdrop itself.

Hm

Current hash rate and price don't matter. What matters is compatibility with the legacy protocol and cumulative proof of work.

Segwit is/was compatible with the legacy protocol. It doesn't matter how horrible you think Segwit is. Legacy nodes accept Segwit transactions/blocks as valid. Since the Segwit chain is the valid chain with most accumulated POW, it is the only Bitcoin chain. There is no "parallel" legacy chain; there is only Bitcoin. Shelby bizarrely believes that despite a large majority of the network enforcing Segwit, miners could successfully hard fork Bitcoin to remove Segwit simply by virtue of hash rate.

The market has made abundantly clear over and over with such hard fork spinoffs: they are invalid chains. Hard forks. Spinoffs. Airdrops. Altcoins. Shitcoins. Whatever you want to call them.

Not only does the whole idea ignore what the market has proven repeatedly, but it shows great ignorance of the broad support Segwit has. Segwit activation obviously catalyzed the 2017 bubble; price literally entered the vertical phase of the bubble when miners locked in. Most of the network including major economic nodes are enforcing it.

Yet we are now to believe that overnight, miners alone can hard fork the network, steal half the network's wealth for themselves, and investors are just going to flock to this shitcoin because it's "the one-and-only great Satoshi's immutable protocol?" LOL, what a bunch of delusional crap. Only the most obtuse inbred retards in history could buy into this obvious crock of bullshit!

This is why only tiny groups of uninformed people in their obscure chat rooms and forums buy into this bullshit. Shelby (and Craig Wright) are just exploiting a small number of peoples' great ignorance of Bitcoin's technical aspects and game theory. Shelby obviously has an even (much, much) smaller audience than Craig Wright though, making his plans all the more pathetic looking.

Doesn't matter much what we think locally and at the moment. For u and some others who helped to get Segwit done (first not at all, than with 2x, and later scammed all the 2x away,...). Sure noobs and newbees still buying that crap but that potential seems to dry out with bigger industry checking out that scam.

Time moves on, take ur local stand as u can, the world is not under ur control

BitCoin didn't start as a ticker and didn't start with Segshit.

Netscape is gone as well.

We ll see
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
June 08, 2019, 01:18:13 PM
#97
If u might be really able of abstract thinking and can for a minute analyze - not checking hashrate and speculation price ( both are related and can be manipulated dynamically esp very at some singular event) - then try to see Segwit was the fork, and the airdrop itself.

Hm

Current hash rate and price don't matter. What matters is compatibility with the legacy protocol and cumulative proof of work.

Segwit is/was compatible with the legacy protocol. It doesn't matter how horrible you think Segwit is. Legacy nodes accept Segwit transactions/blocks as valid. Since the Segwit chain is the valid chain with most accumulated POW, it is the only Bitcoin chain. There is no "parallel" legacy chain; there is only Bitcoin. Shelby bizarrely believes that despite a large majority of the network enforcing Segwit, miners could successfully hard fork Bitcoin to remove Segwit simply by virtue of hash rate.

The market has made abundantly clear over and over with such hard fork spinoffs: they are invalid chains. Hard forks. Spinoffs. Airdrops. Altcoins. Shitcoins. Whatever you want to call them.

Not only does the whole idea ignore what the market has proven repeatedly, but it shows great ignorance of the broad support Segwit has. Segwit activation obviously catalyzed the 2017 bubble; price literally entered the vertical phase of the bubble when miners locked in. Most of the network including major economic nodes are enforcing it.

Yet we are now to believe that overnight, miners alone can hard fork the network, steal half the network's wealth for themselves, and investors are just going to flock to this shitcoin because it's "the one-and-only great Satoshi's immutable protocol?" LOL, what a bunch of delusional crap. Only the most obtuse inbred retards in history could buy into this obvious crock of bullshit!

This is why only tiny groups of uninformed people in their obscure chat rooms and forums buy into this bullshit. Shelby (and Craig Wright) are just exploiting a small number of peoples' great ignorance of Bitcoin's technical aspects and game theory. Shelby obviously has an even (much, much) smaller audience than Craig Wright though, making his plans all the more pathetic looking.
sr. member
Activity: 1400
Merit: 347
June 08, 2019, 09:05:00 AM
#96
If the global elites want bitcoin to be hated by the population, and bitcoin still will reach one million in the next four years, then I can guess that, in this scenario, the global elites would be using bitcoin to shield themselves from the destruction of the fiat system, which is starting with these trade wars.

But how they will convince the population to use cryptocurrencies afterwards? The only way to do that would be with a global reset, probably with a new world war. Then they would design a new cryptocurrency and the people, tired by the war (and the poverty it brings), would accept it.

How can we, small investors, which are not part of the global elite, and would not be affected by the event described by Shelby, protect ourselves against the crowd? I only read celebrities talking about price, like 250k (Tim Draper), or 1 million (McAfee), but not a single one of them talks about social consequences of these prices, specially in the short-term.

Even if this Segwit event is just speculation to create FUD, those prices will bring the crowd (and the State) against us. The volatility will be higher, and we know very well how the nocoiner mentality is, they want quick profit and panic sell with a 1% correction. I dont see any of these billionaires talking about citadels for the holders, it looks like it will only be available for themselves. So, even if social consensus prevail, we still will see bumps in the road.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 08, 2019, 06:02:49 AM
#95
Quote from: Shelby Moore
Actually take some time to read the following two linked posts and understand that the death of the Core shitcoin is 100% economically assured:

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@zoidsoft/psa991 <--- @zoidsoft has been a s/w engineer his entire life, read his numeric economic analysis

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/ps965c

There is not a single iota of logic or evidence that proves your point in those useless, rambling posts. Chock full of retarded assumptions with no basis like:

Quote
I'm thinking that once the Segwit booty exceeds 50% of the total BTC in existence, that's when it will happen. If I could just mathematically model the flow into segwit somehow, I might be able to extrapolate when.

At the 50% mark, the value of BTC Core and BTC legacy will be equal which turns this into something similar to a PoS situation where the majority BTC legacy is assured control.

You are laughably dumb if you eat up this sort unproven illogical garbage. These posts are nothing but empty opinions from people who are obviously completely ignorant of the economic incentives.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
If you are simply stating an opinion and not giving users investment advice, then please put a disclaimer on your allegations that I’m a “nut job”. I have done more research in the past 6 years about crypto than most of all you combined. Enjoy poverty.

You're a nutjob, no disclaimer required. Nobody cares about your "research" because quite obviously you have nothing to show for it besides some laughably stupid Steemit links.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
There was no SegWit “anyone can spend” donations booty to provide the Schelling point. Now there is. Read @zoidsoft’s numbers linked above.

"Oh yeah, derp derp, 50% coins in Segwit addresses? Must be time to fork to that chain nobody is going to use where we steal everyone's coins! Derp derp!" Super convincing game theory. We're all very impressed with you. LOL.

You idiots haven't even bothered to discuss mining incentives as pertaining to actual users, post-fork. You've based this entire absurd theory on mining rewards at existing prices! That's beyond absurd! Miners on your shitcoin won't be mining billions in value. Who is going to put bids on exchanges for that shitcoin? It would be dumped to hell immediately and become incredibly unprofitable to mine.

Somehow you've convinced yourself that airdropping coins to legacy addresses is going to create demand for your coin. Now why would that be? If Bcash taught us anything, airdrops are for dumping.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Anyone who understands where Bitcoin’s monetary valuation comes from as a replacement for gold (make sure you click and look at the charts!):

Then understands that without immutability of the protocol, then the 21 million tokens limit can’t be assured and thus you will end up with a non-monetary valuation such as silver which is now entirely demonetized:

How is your shitcoin immutable? You're proposing a hard fork where miners steal outputs from users on the original fork. That's the complete opposite of immutable.

What you're proposing is yet another Bitcoin hard fork spinoff. What makes you think users would uninstall their Bitcoin software to install the miners fork? Half the economy with Segwit outputs is obviously strongly opposed to that. Everyone else has a strong interest in a resolution where miners don't prove Bitcoin doesn't work by stealing everyone's money. All user incentives, both long term and short, point to heavy opposition to the miners fork.

Bitcoin users can wait days, weeks or longer while miners spend endless millions of dollars attacking Bitcoin and mining their worthless shitcoin chain. All users have to do is wait. Slow block times aren't going to convince Bitcoin users to go against their interests. Miners are the ones who will be squeezed financially into calling the attack off and incentivized to return to the chain where users actually are.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Note to mention that SegWit and LN makes the blockchain insecure, for reasons I have explained else where and will not repeat again now. If you doubt my technological acumen, then that is your stupid mistake.

Sounds really convincing!

When are you actually going to say something that might prove your point?

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Quote from: exstasie
Miners will be spending massive amounts mining a completely worthless chain.
Nonsense. They will be enriched with $billions of donations from idiot snowflakes.


No they won't. Nobody would ever put bids up for this useless shitcoin. There will be zero bid liquidity on exchanges, zero OTC liquidity. In one move, these miners will have publicly destroyed the entire use case for their coin. It doesn't matter how big the mining rewards are since the coins will be worthless at market.

Which is why miners will never engage in this.

Quote from: Shelby Moore
Quote from: exstasie
If the attack succeeded (LOL) it would only succeed in destroying trust in all the forks, and all of crypto.

Exactly. All crypto except real, immutable, original, one-and-only Bitcoin.

And that is exactly the way the genius Satoshi planned it to be. And so it shall be. Mark my word.


Why would your shitcoin be immune? Investors are going to conclude that POW doesn't work.

This is the most incredible thing about your theory. You believe investors are going to flock to the very dishonest miners who just robbed them. The truth is, they would dump your shitcoin too, especially since it was just airdropped.

Not to mention that miners will control half the supply on fork day. LOL. Yeah, really attractive for investors! Where can I line up to buy some? Roll Eyes

If u might be really able of abstract thinking and can for a minute analyze - not checking hashrate and speculation price ( both are related and can be manipulated dynamically esp very at some singular event) - then try to see Segwit was the fork, and the airdrop itself.

Hm
hero member
Activity: 2926
Merit: 640
June 08, 2019, 05:04:53 AM
#94
This 2018 post will be entertaining when it happens.

Capital C for capitalism. BitCoin.

FUD carrier, nonsense.
That is absolutely what that Craig of a cunny man is trying to achieve, I believe Craigs plan is to promote his coin by trying everything to destroy Bitcoin. Don’t be surprised that he doesn’t even have more than 500BTC for him to be talking nonsense of moving so much coin that will drop the value of BTC.

He knows the power of FUD news which is why he is trying to use it to create panic sell, who would hear that such huge BTC is to be sold and would not panic to get theirs out first, but he needs to understand that he is dealing with smart people here and not the dull people he believes we are, that story is not true and can never happen.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
June 08, 2019, 12:45:50 AM
#93
Quote
It’s true that Satoshi wrote above that nodes don’t need to know how to read the internal transaction format, but you are failing to read the stipulation he made: “evaluating whether the sender's conditions are met.”

SegWit puts the payee’s public key address in a format that Satoshi clients can’t understand, thus the transactions are “anyone can spend”. SegWit fails to adhere to the stipulation that Satoshi wrote that the sender’s conditions must be met.

what are you talking about? just like satoshi intended, legacy nodes can validate segwit transactions despite not being able to fully understand them.

Quote
By putting the sender’s conditions in a format that nodes can’t understand, there’s no protection stating whom can spend the SegWit UTXO.

sure there is. that protection is provided by all nodes running the "future versions" to use satoshi's words. the distribution of nodes enforcing segwit is now 80/20, with all exchanges enforcing it. if anyone tries to mount the "anyone-can-spend" attack, they would be forked off the network, as others have pointed out. it's a replay of the bcash fork where miners fork off.

if consensus rules (like segwit) were so malleable as you think, there would be nothing stopping miners from inflating the supply either. if we're all just hopeless slaves to miners and consensus rules don't secure the network, why don't they just start printing money too?
legendary
Activity: 3038
Merit: 1660
lose: unfind ... loose: untight
June 07, 2019, 11:41:23 PM
#92
Posted on Shelby's behalf:

I never thought I'd see a group of people more gullible and pathetic than the BSV crowd but, WOW.

Your reading comprehension is so low that you don’t even realize that I rebuked the BSV-fanboy @hv_ in my prior post (and several before that as well). I am not a BSV supporter. I am a Satoshi v0.5.3 immutable protocol supporter.

If you start with false premises (i.e. incorrectly presuming that I am a BSV advocate), then your dependent reasoning is flawed.

"There's hardly any reachable nodes on the network but secretly everybody is running SATOSHI'S IMMUTABLE 0.5.3 PROTOCOL and is waiting to hard fork to our secret shitcoin and dump their Core shitcoins!" Right........ lol. You fuckin short bus morons.

I wrote about that in the Steemit post I have linked several times in this thread. Of course you failed to read and/or understand, because your eyes and/or thinking are obscured with arrogance:

"But but the power-law distribution, and Segwit booty, and I personally know people who are just aching to dump all their Core shitcoins!!!!" Sounds really compelling lololol. You should start a Youtube channel from your parent's basement, we're all dying to see how far your conspiracy theories have gotten you in life!

Word salad is not evidence of a brain stem. You are committing every mental error cited in the following blog:

http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-piss-me-the-fuck-off-a-guide/



The nature of Bitcoin is such that once version 0.1 was released, the core design was set in stone for the rest of its lifetime.  Because of that, I wanted to design it to support every possible transaction type I could think of.  The problem was, each thing required special support code and data fields whether it was used or not, and only covered one special case at a time.  It would have been an explosion of special cases.  The solution was script, which generalizes the problem so transacting parties can describe their transaction as a predicate that the node network evaluates.  The nodes only need to understand the transaction to the extent of evaluating whether the sender's conditions are met.

The script is actually a predicate.  It's just an equation that evaluates to true or false.  Predicate is a long and unfamiliar word so I called it script.

The receiver of a payment does a template match on the script.  Currently, receivers only accept two templates: direct payment and bitcoin address.  Future versions can add templates for more transaction types and nodes running that version or higher will be able to receive them.  All versions of nodes in the network can verify and process any new transactions into blocks, even though they may not know how to read them.

Ostensibly you do not entirely grok technologically what you’re citing. I have emphasized the key phases with bold, underline. It’s true that Satoshi wrote above that nodes don’t need to know how to read the internal transaction format, but you are failing to read the stipulation he made: evaluating whether the sender's conditions are met.

SegWit puts the payee’s public key address in a format that Satoshi clients can’t understand, thus the transactions are “anyone can spend”. SegWit fails to adhere to the stipulation that Satoshi wrote that the sender’s conditions must be met. By putting the sender’s conditions in a format that nodes can’t understand, there’s no protection stating whom can spend the SegWit UTXO. Even in Satoshi’s immutable protocol, a valid Bitcoin script can be written that has no stipulation for a public key for spending the UTXO. This is essentially/conceptually what SegWit is.



And you are right about this not being theft in the Core blockchain, since it would be rolled back.

There could never be a theft on the "Core" blockchain in the first place because the vast majority of the network is enforcing consensus rules that would see that theft as invalid. Violating those rules is a hard fork. Very very very few nodes on the network are left running software that would validate this miner fork. We're literally talking about dozens of listening nodes. The vast majority of the network will literally just ignore the fork because it's just an invalid chain like any other hard fork.

Other than a long-range chain rollback (which is presumably impossible because it would require a sustainable 50+% attack, i.e. the basic security premise of proof-of-work), you’re correct that there will not be any theft because theft would require a hard fork, so thus everyone’s tokens always remain valid on the original chain (i.e. not on the hard-forked chain with the new protocol rules). IOW, Core address hodlers will not lose their Core shitcoins after the hardfork. And Legacy address hodlers will not lose their Legacy BTC after Core hardforks. And Legacy address holders will also get a free airdrop of Core shitcoins because Core is hardforking off of Satoshi’s protocol, not vice versa.

But again you are ostensibly repeating your double-speak from your prior post which I corrected. You again in this post employ double-speak to confuse/deceive the readers (and yourself?) because you are ostensibly insinuating that when Satoshi’s immutable protocol removes the SegWit booty from the UTXO to restore a Nash equilibrium to Satoshi’s v0.5.3 protocol, that Satoshi’s immutable protocol will have hard-forked off from the Core protocol. If that is what you think, you’re provably incorrect.

Satoshi’s immutable protocol has never stopped running. Protocol signaling is not meaningful (for the same reason that democracy and voting are not meaningful) because the only form of “signaling” that has unforgeable costliness are blocks on the longest chain.

So the blocks that are adhering to Core’s protocol are also compatible with and thus adhering to Satoshi’s v0.5.3 protocol. Satoshi’s protocol continues to run side-by-side with Core’s protocol, because Satoshi’s protocol does not care if Core enforces who can spend SegWit UTXO. This is the “soft fork”. But it does not mean the Satoshi protocol has stopped running. It just so happens that Satoshi’s protocol does not care who spends those SegWit UTXO. But when that booty piles up stinking high, then Satoshi protocol miners have an economic incentive to start spending that booty to themselves. And in fact when the booty becomes too stinking large, there will be a power vacuum and no Nash equilibrium until a mining oligarchy (e.g. Craig’s group) initiates the Schelling point to start Satoshi’s defense mechanism “poison pill” that will force Core’s protocol to hard-fork off (actually fuck off!). At that point the Core protocol miners will see that as a violation of their protocol rules, so they will hardfork off from Satoshi’s protocol, thus completing the inevitable hard-fork that Core wanted to insidiously hide from the public by inventing the political manipulation known as “user consensus” and “soft-fork”. Proof-of-work has no politics. Only the unforgeable costliness and longest chain matters. And fools are going to learn this the hard way.

The proof that Core is hardforking off from Satoshi’s protocol and not vice versa, is that everyone who hodls legacy addresses will get both legacy BTC and a free airdrop of Core shitcoins. Whereas, those who hodl Core SegWit addresses will get only the hardforked Core shitcoins and no legacy BTC.

How much clearer could I explain that? Why are you incapable of accepting the truth?

Core needed to use a “soft fork” because they needed to attempt to fool everyone into thinking that voting and signaling has any value. And of course most people are idiots and will fall into the woodchipper where they belong just like sheep pushing each other over the cliff. Lol. So hilarious how dumb (i.e. nonobjective) most people are and how they whor(e)ship the collective herd. About that whor(e)shipping concept, please see the references to 1 Samuel 8 and 1 Samuel 15 in the following linked blog of mine:

https://steemit.com/religion/@anonymint/ethics-of-religion-money-and-bitcoin

The "Core" chain would be unaffected (except for maybe some congestion from the attacking miners leaving the network, same as Bitcoin Cash) so there would never be any rollback required. Anyone who would have you believe the Bitcoin network would accept miners stealing Segwit outputs is trying to bamboozle you. This would never ever happen based on the node distribution we see today.

The Core protocol miners will not accept the SegWit being spent to anyone. But the Satoshi protocol miners will.

Your claim about there not being any Satoshi miners is nonsense, because you do not understand the unforgeable costliness model of Bitcoin’s valuation.

What will happen is the miners will leave the Core protocol in droves after Craig initiates (with their 3000 peta-hash/s mining farms) the Satoshi protocol defense mechanism that ostensibly Satoshi cleverly designed into the protocol and game theory. They will switch over to mining Satoshi’s protocol to partake in the booty. So the Core chain will lose so much hashrate that it will slow down to a crawl. And of course collapse in value in to ~0.

Meanwhile, the forking miners would need to pray that everyone installs software to remove Segwit. Who in their right mind would do that? Cheesy

Lol. Money talks, BS walks. Changing a software client for huge mining farms is not a cost at all. The only issue is for the mining farm to decide which fork has the most value.

The whole scheme is at odds with the incentive design in Bitcoin.

You do not understand the valuation of Bitcoin. We do. You will lose everything.

Ask around. Nobody is going to adopt a hard fork where the miners steal all the Segwit outputs from users.

Yeah ask around to worthless idiots who collectively control only a small fraction of the BTC wealth. Lol. Ask those who do not understand Bitcoin’s valuation model. Yeah ask fools and follow fools over the cliff. Hahaha.

At most, if you have some coins in 1xxxx addresses you might get some airdrop coins on the hard fork chain that you can sell. Chances are they will have no value, but anything is possible!!

Lol. This is going to be epic to watch all you Core supporters lose everything. My popcorn is ready. I wonder how you will behave after you have lost all your wealth? Who will you lash out at? Will you sue? Will you seek retribution via the government?



So, what would happen, in a market perspective, is that both chains would start with the same value

Disagree. The stock-to-flows valuation model is predicative and it instructs that the immutable coin with known future flow of token supply is exponentially more valuable than a mutable protocol.

I said they would start with the same value, at the time of the fork, not that they would keep the same value.

I keep referring to the “going for the gold” valuation model. This is based on the unforgeable costliness of the accumulated energy to mine BTC. Refer to the following very detailed blog for your edification (and also make sure you click the link to PlanB’s blog which my blog is discussing):

https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@anonymint/secrets-of-bitcoin-s-dystopian-valuation-model

Thus my prior reply to you was a refutation of your claim that Core and Satoshi protocols start with the same value. Absolutely not. No fork of Bitcoin has ever started with the same value as Bitcoin.

The only double-speak from fools here is that those who have been hoodwinked by Core, believe that Core became Bitcoin, and that Satoshi’s protocol died and would be hardforking Core’s protocol if it came back. But that is because those fools don’t assimilate the details as I have explained it above and upthread. It is precisely the immutability of the protocol and the fact that Satoshi’s protocol never stopped, which gives Bitcoin unforgeable costliness of accumulated burned energy and thus value. Bitcoin’s value does not originate from users, analogous to that gold’s value does not originate from how many impoverished people fondle some little bits of gold.

Wrong. Bitcoin is valuable because it has unforgeable costliness. Your analogy does not hold because Bitcoin has no competitors. No altcoin has unforgeable costliness.

Whatever value Bitcoin has as a transactional currency (or asset, if you prefer) for sheep to pump altcoins with is marginal, at best, but ultimately will tend toward zero.


We need to weigh down human behaviour on this event.

Only the behavior of the wealthy matter. The vast majority do not matter at all. They are worthless. 50% of the population only has 15% of the wealth. The top few percent has 34% of the wealth.

Ok, but how can we compare this to what happened to ethereum? I know they are different, but in the case of ethereum, the forked chain became the main one after some time. Today ethereum values 30x more than ethereum classic. Is there some difference (related to the PoW) in relation to ethereum?

Category error. Incomparable. You can’t compare a shitcoin that derives it ephemeral (eventually going to ~0) “value” from fooling witless bunny rabbits to Bitcoin which derives its value from unforgeable costliness.

The shitcoins exist as a way to extract the money from the hordes of fools in this world who are given fiat money by socialism, and siphon all that value into Bitcoin via unforgeable costliness. And that is why the following is coming:

https://steemit.com/money/@anonymint/rise-of-hard-money-is-a-harbinger-of-misery  <--- really you should read it.

Bitcoin is not your friend. It is a wrecking ball, here to destroy all the non-meritorious shit going on in the world these days.

Investors dont have a clue about immutability in the protocol

Then they won't be investors for very long. They will be bankrupted former speculators who did not do due diligence.

The wealthy investors know what is going on. Craig told them. I told them. The trilema.com Bitcoin millionaire told them. Etc.. Word gets around amongst the uber wealthy.

But isnt Blockstream owned by AXA, which is linked to the Bilderberg group? There are probably some banking interests in LN. Personally I believe it will be a tug-of-war between the two chains, thats why I believe they will start on the same foot.

Satoshi was not our friend. He is the global elite. Of course this has all been planted to fool bunny rabbits and take all their wealth, and make them an angry mob that will lash out. This is how they will bring about their totalitarianism that is coming soon. They will make it so anyone who has BTC is perceived to be a thief by the public (whilst they hodl so much BTC surreptitiously because they are always above the law). Craig is one of their pawns apparently as is Blockstream.

I had several huge threads about this on bitcointalk.org. I was shouting and shouting. Nobody wants to listen. They prefer to think they know it all. Hehe.

Speaking of this, I am confident that Satoshi expected this outcome and designed for it. I think Blockstream was funded because those who created Bitcoin want this to happen. See Bitcoin is a means for bringing about the world government, because the nations and unemployed masses will turn against Bitcoin. But they will need 666 control to attempt to stop Bitcoin, not realizing that the global elite who control their nations are the same ones who created and unleashed Bitcoin. The 666 system will then be used to enslave them and never to actually stop Bitcoin, which the elite will own most of.

So the massive donations that kick all the “social consensus” idiots and Lightning Network users off of BTC, because they will only have Core shitcoins after that, will be another way to make the masses bitter and hate Bitcoin.

By disenfranchising the majority by playing on their ignorance, their idiotic belief in the nonsense of democracy, their belief that off-chain Lightning Networks will work out, and their belief that their vote and their existence is actually worth anything non-meritoriously.

Imagine now that all that BTC that was taken as donations will then be tainted as being “stolen funds” in the minds of snowflake idiots who think the governments must protect them against such imagined theft (when in fact the reality is they were sending transactions to the network that can be spent by anyone and allowed themselves to be fooled into thinking Core has any legitimacy). Yet you can imagine that some governments may actually try to trace those donated BTC and place capital control restrictions on such tainted BTC. This is yet another way the $trillionaires global elite can destroy the other lowly millionaires who want to transact and hodl BTC.

This is why I was writing in #7 and #8 in my prior two comment posts about the importance of making mining more accessible. And also to try to actually make a transactional cryptocurrency that will not kick most of the population off-chain to trustless systems. Because if we could get a billion people to actually use and be vested in cryptocurrency, then the masses would demand that cryptocurrency be not taxed and instead be treated as a currency by the nations. So then instead of banksters winning with their plan to make Bitcoin exclusive and a tool of the 666, we would win and put that wound of the forehead of the Beast as stated in Revelation. Well who knows, the masses are so easy to fool into accepting taxes that they think will only apply to the wealthy, which in fact only apply to them in the end.

PoS

Proof-of-shit aka proof-of-nothing has no value. All PoS shit will go to 0 eventually.

Fine. But the entire debt-based fiat system is based on stacking. Fiat money was debased from gold for decades, and its lack of PoW creates inflation. In a PoW perspective, fiat money have a negative value, as each bank note is a debt certificate.

What could prevent some banking cartel from going crypto and using stacking to reinvent their own system? Just food for thought.

Yes humanity needs some form of fractional reserve system, else it collapses into a Dark Age, but the nation-states will fight to retain control over that. And Lightning Networks is a very poor technological attempt at putting fractional reserves on a blockchain. And proof-of-stake is just fiat, so of course the proof-of-stake system is a winner-take-all with the government as the winner. Btw, some people (e.g. the trilema.com dude) have speculated that the U.S. Government is actually behind the curtain of Ethereum.

P.S. The correct term is ‘debasement’ of the monetary supply. Inflation in the monetary context applies to price inflation, which is not always perfectly correlated to the Quantity Theory of Money, because PUBLIC CONFIDENCE drives wild swings.

Anyway, this whole discussion is the old bickering between developers and miners again, nothing new on the front. To maximize profits, it would be better to hold both coins for some time and see which one have a better valuation, then dump the other.

That bickering was to fool you into thinking that unforgeable costliness is not cardinal. Be fooled if you like falling over the cliff and into the woodchipper.
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