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Topic: Eligius: 0% Fee BTC, 105% PPS NMC, No registration, CPPSRB - page 269. (Read 1061862 times)

full member
Activity: 158
Merit: 100
The block list appears to be caught up now, at block 286282.

According to blockchain, there are no more blocks found by Eligius after that one.

Cheers

Art
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
I feel the need to point out that the largest miners actually put the least load on the pool per Gh/sec.  It takes more effort on my part to support the other 6000+ users than it does the top 100 miners.

HHTT charged a fee based on the average difficulty of submitted shares, or something similar. The higher the difficulty, the lower the fee.

You could do the same, stabilising fees by using average submitted difficulty /  mining difficulty as an index. The lower submitted difficulty /  mining difficulty is, the greater the fee and visa versa.

I wouldn't make the fee much, but users need to know how much you work for them.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
I feel the need to point out that the largest miners actually put the least load on the pool per Gh/sec.  It takes more effort on my part to support the other 6000+ users than it does the top 100 miners.
makes sense.

I actually have a couple of questions regarding the ownership of the pool. Is it just you, or is it you and Luke-jr, or some combination of others I'm unaware of?

I don't actually care much, just curious. The only way it might matter directly to me is in whether or not you have the ability to make unilateral decisions regarding the operation of the pool. I know that it's basal software was Luke-jr's project, but I don't know the extent of his involvement. (No, I don't have a problem with him. I wasn't here for the rivalries that seemed to have colored the interaction of him and CKolivas and a few others. Probably wouldn't have been involved any way).
legendary
Activity: 1223
Merit: 1006
I feel the need to point out that the largest miners actually put the least load on the pool per Gh/sec.  It takes more effort on my part to support the other 6000+ users than it does the top 100 miners.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
The large miners reduce their own variance by mining with the pool.  There is no real benefit to them to setup their own unless they just want to gamble.  Right now, with the ever increasing difficulty, the lower the variance the better.

If you charged a minimal service fee, like 0.1% it might help a little. Importantly though I think it would help people realise that you shouldn't expect the benefit of a pool without paying at least some token amount.

Using a pool is like paying insurance, yet no one is suggesting that insurance should be a free service.


+1000

All the benefits none of the costs and headaches. They are not stupid.

FWIW, if I were running a pool I'd charge a fee but offer some kind of rebate program based on hash rate (probably over a period of time) with the largest miners having no fee or a negative fee, and no I'm not a particularly large miner myself.


legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
The large miners reduce their own variance by mining with the pool.  There is no real benefit to them to setup their own unless they just want to gamble.  Right now, with the ever increasing difficulty, the lower the variance the better.

If you charged a minimal service fee, like 0.1% it might help a little. Importantly though I think it would help people realise that you shouldn't expect the benefit of a pool without paying at least some token amount.

Using a pool is like paying insurance, yet no one isare suggesting that insurance should be a free service.


FTFY
sr. member
Activity: 351
Merit: 250
The large miners reduce their own variance by mining with the pool.  There is no real benefit to them to setup their own unless they just want to gamble.  Right now, with the ever increasing difficulty, the lower the variance the better.

If you charged a minimal service fee, like 0.1% it might help a little. Importantly though I think it would help people realise that you shouldn't expect the benefit of a pool without paying at least some token amount.

Using a pool is like paying insurance, yet no one is suggesting that insurance should be a free service.


+1000

All the benefits none of the costs and headaches. They are not stupid.
donator
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1007
Poor impulse control.
The large miners reduce their own variance by mining with the pool.  There is no real benefit to them to setup their own unless they just want to gamble.  Right now, with the ever increasing difficulty, the lower the variance the better.

If you charged a minimal service fee, like 0.1% it might help a little. Importantly though I think it would help people realise that you shouldn't expect the benefit of a pool without paying at least some token amount.

Using a pool is like paying insurance, yet no one is suggesting that insurance should be a free service.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
The large miners reduce their own variance by mining with the pool.  There is no real benefit to them to setup their own unless they just want to gamble.  Right now, with the ever increasing difficulty, the lower the variance the better.

Right, but there would be an advantage to them if the pool started charging a fee, which is what was being proposed.

The large miners decrease variance for the small and medium miners a lot more than they decrease their own (without the pool their variance wouldn't be that large anyway).



sr. member
Activity: 351
Merit: 250
legendary
Activity: 1223
Merit: 1006
Before I forget, a few people have asked me about NMC payouts.  I can't do NMC payouts until the stats are caught up, unfortunately.  So, I'll catch them up ASAP.
legendary
Activity: 1223
Merit: 1006
The large miners reduce their own variance by mining with the pool.  There is no real benefit to them to setup their own unless they just want to gamble.  Right now, with the ever increasing difficulty, the lower the variance the better.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
it's the top 20 that he is really loosing from.
They are getting maximum benefit from the pool and returning nothing on a regular basis, it appears on the surface.
That is not the case, since they could easily run their own pool. The top contributor right now is grossing almost 200 BTC per day. You don't think they can afford to set up a private pool or a p2pool node, or even just solo mine? (They'd average 8 blocks per day.)

It is the small to medium miners who benefit the most. Too small to set up their own pool and at least the medium miners have too much at stake to risk solo mining. It is either this pool or some other pool.

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1000
Want privacy? Use Monero!
Maybe this is a solution:

default: 1% donation + miner hashrate/total network hashrate fee
Only the donation part can be changed. The fee part is fixed.

=> Topcontributors pay higher default "fee"
#1: 5.16% (1040 TH)
#2: 4.20% (805 TH)
#3: 1.72% (180 TH)
#4-6: 1.44% (110 TH)
#7-9: 1.34% (85 TH)
#10: 1.28% (70 TH)
...
#20: 1.1% (26 TH)
...
#50: 1.02% (6 TH)
...
#100: 1.01% (3 TH)
...
#1000: 1.00% (0.5 TH)
...


What will be the result?

The small miners (>#100) who are lazy or do not know how to sign messages, will donate 1%.
Some of them will knowingly not change it, because they want to donate 1%, others will maybe change it to 0.1% or just 0%.
The fact that there is a default donation, will result in people thinking about the costs of running a pool and maybe lower it, but not to 0%.

The medium miners (> #10) will probably have the same behaviour as the small miners, although I guess more will lower the total donation to 1% (so lower the donation in a way that donation + fee = 1%) or even lower. These miners are experiencied and most of them know how to sign messages.
But these miners are most likely individual miners and some of them like their stats centralized, so they will not "split" their miners to have a lower total fee.

The large miners (< #10) will probably  split the miners to different accounts. But for example splitting 100 TH in 1000 * 0.1 TH to avoid fees takes too much time. So they will probably split their farm in 10 => 10 * 10 TH => 0.04% fee will at least be paid (if we assume the manager will sign 10 messages to lower the donation from 1% to 0%)



To conclude:
You will get a lot of 1% or other small donations from small to medium miners and at least a small donation from the large miners. For small miners there is still the possibility to mine at 0%.


What do you guys think?

legendary
Activity: 1223
Merit: 1006
Hi everyone,

Looks like while I was out earlier someone decided it would be nice to DoS the web server. *sigh*  Back up now, did a little filtering upstream.

Stats are slowly gaining on real-time... less than 3 hours behind now.

Thank you everyone for your support, it is appreciated as always.

I just want to briefly address the idea of making a default donation amount.  I have considered this, and bounced the idea around a little with some others and I think it probably would not be the best idea, personally.  While I'm sure doing so would help generate income for the pool, and people would still be able to override the default, I think the signed-message based options are probably not the most user-friendly to deal with.  It may be another story entirely once that system is spiced up a bit with detailed instructions and walk-throughs for various wallet software, but right now it is, admittedly, less than straight-forward.

Since Eligius is zero fee and zero registration required, technically someone can use Eligius without ever even needing to visit the website, this forum, or any other related service besides just pointing their miner and waiting for payouts.  Granted, I feel like the majority of miners do at the very least use the stats pages, but, there are probably quite a few people who still don't even know that the My Eligius control panel exists.

Also on the donations topic, I've not actually put up a page for donor stats as of yet, mainly because I feel like there hasn't been enough time for information to disseminate about the feature.  Many have donated through other channels, and I also wouldn't want to not give any of those people the impression that their contributions were not as important as an automatic contribution.   Eventually I will make such stats once there is more data collected and available, though.

I'll note that a couple of the top miners have made some contributions outside of the automatic donations that have been helpful.  I used those and some other donations to bring online and additional core pool server the other day for more back end load balancing to help make the pool a bit more responsive under heavy load.

I'm honestly not trying to make a living off of pool donations or anything.  I feel that there is a need for a reliable zero-fee pool that is as open as possible.  Miners need a way to reduce their income variance while still not having to worry about the pool becoming too large to be safe for the network.  I feel that Eligius exposes sufficient information for people to be comfortable mining here knowing they can check on what is being mined, who is being paid, etc at any time.

Anyway, I think we're headed in the right direction.  Hopefully I'll be able to get a better web-side server structure going soon so that the stats are more responsive and can be more robust.

Thanks again to everyone for their support!

-wk
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
So here is my challenge to all the the members of the FSA (free shit army). Mine for Wizkid for a day I just set an Antminer to following
eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1EdeTHebTtymUULE5bdjWzW1gbCJkP7aQH  

Do the same, show that you support Eligius and show the others that greed won't be tolerated.

+1 Antminer put there for time being.
Greed is not tolerated.



ps. i hope you got the address right.

Thank you! My faith in humanity is coming back Grin

Sex and HDx let's see some love... we're waiting Huh

Can't afford to do this right now, but I like the concept. I am donating a percentage, however.

newbie
Activity: 10
Merit: 0
I vote to make a 1% donation compulsory. Those that don't like it can go to BTC Guild  (3%) of Ghash

Cheers

Art

That's not a donation. It's a fee. Don't mistake the two - in any circumstance.
full member
Activity: 237
Merit: 100
everyone should donate something but i prefer the way that everyone can choose on its own how much he will donate. you should not forget that the 0% FEE is one of the biggest motivations to join this pool.
full member
Activity: 158
Merit: 100
I vote to make a 1% donation compulsory. Those that don't like it can go to BTC Guild  (3%) of Ghash


Cheers


Art
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
I second making fees compulsory. Even 1% is much better than nothing.

I think a compulsory 1% across all users would get him over 5BTC per day.
0.1% would net him at least 15BTC/month.

I already donate but, as has been said previously, it's the top 20 that he is really loosing from.
They are getting maximum benefit from the pool and returning nothing on a regular basis, it appears on the surface.
Obviously we are not privvy to any direct donations and I hope WK gets some.

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