These cases are a bit silly to talk in public because all that actually matters is usually private stuff...
In any case, it is interesting to see what the situation of this person is, so that if another person tries to do something similar they will know what to expect.
From a couple of videos I've seen, it seems he need a bit more of a legal advice before he says things like there's no tax, etc...
Topic: MemoryDealers aka Roger Ver Arrested! (Read 1715 times)
I wish I was locked up in Spain too.
He's not locked up, he's been out on bail since May 17. However, restricting his movement still isn't very cool.
ver wants it all dismissed because he says he has been communicating with IRS for a decade
BUT he hasnt paid tax in that decade, so its still evasion
the article a couple posts ago tries to say that Ver hasnt paid tax due to regulatory and tax status changes.. citing how now with trump starting a new presidency in 2025 that somehow allows ver to continue with the negotiation delays
however taxes do not work like that
if ver owes tax in 2014 and 2017 then he should pay the tax of those years based on the tax regulations of those tax years. not try to say that in 202X tax laws changed so he disagree's with the amounts owed in 2014 and 2017
the amounts in 2017 are about the laws of 2017. he shouldnt be trying to do these delay tactics of waiting out new tax law changes to then pretend he doesnt owe old tax amounts due to new laws
if he just negotiated an amount to pay to settle the dispute, then he could have solved things. but instead he seems to be pretending that each years tax law changes means a specific year gets void of debt
in short he still owes the IRS tax for 2014 and 2017 based on the tax regulations of those tax years
BUT he hasnt paid tax in that decade, so its still evasion
the article a couple posts ago tries to say that Ver hasnt paid tax due to regulatory and tax status changes.. citing how now with trump starting a new presidency in 2025 that somehow allows ver to continue with the negotiation delays
however taxes do not work like that
if ver owes tax in 2014 and 2017 then he should pay the tax of those years based on the tax regulations of those tax years. not try to say that in 202X tax laws changed so he disagree's with the amounts owed in 2014 and 2017
the amounts in 2017 are about the laws of 2017. he shouldnt be trying to do these delay tactics of waiting out new tax law changes to then pretend he doesnt owe old tax amounts due to new laws
if he just negotiated an amount to pay to settle the dispute, then he could have solved things. but instead he seems to be pretending that each years tax law changes means a specific year gets void of debt
in short he still owes the IRS tax for 2014 and 2017 based on the tax regulations of those tax years
Being stuck in Spain It is not exactly the worst punishment. I wish I was locked up in Spain too. Yo hablo no Espanol sangria sangria Senor! bebes sangria? Aah, I miss Spain. Wonderful Sangria, wonderful Senoras.
I wonder, If I don’t pay my taxes too, would the taxman also banish me to Spain?
Rodger-sama knows his shit well.
I wonder, If I don’t pay my taxes too, would the taxman also banish me to Spain?
Rodger-sama knows his shit well.
Believe it or not Roger Ver still can't leave Spain after he paid $160,000 bail in May of this year, and he has to report to officials all the time.
His lawyers filed a motion to dismiss the criminal indictment against him for $50 million tax evasion.
Let's put aside what I think about Roger, they didn't have to arrest him because he was already negotiating payment with government officials.
https://decrypt.co/294694/roger-ver-files-motion-to-dismiss-justice-department-indictment
His lawyers filed a motion to dismiss the criminal indictment against him for $50 million tax evasion.
Let's put aside what I think about Roger, they didn't have to arrest him because he was already negotiating payment with government officials.
https://decrypt.co/294694/roger-ver-files-motion-to-dismiss-justice-department-indictment
Interesting that he wasn't extradited. I don't understand how the US can hold a tax trial in Spain.
His lawyers were communicating with authorities before, so there was no reason to arrest him like that, but they probably wanted to affect everyone else with news of his arrest.Stupid American Question: I know in the Schengen zone you can drive from country to country without stopping at borders. Yes, technically he is on an island at the moment, but if say Ver was in Madrid what would stop him from hopping in a car and driving to France? Is there any kind of monitoring that is done?
He has to report to court every few days, and they have his passport.In theory he could travel to most EU countries without problem, but he could not leave EU unless he has another passport.
To much risk doing this, and than they would have the reason to put him in prison for a very long time.
I think he is going to pay extortion money in the end.
Very well spotted. Maybe Ver is not allowed to leave Mallorca but if he were allowed to leave he can theoretically drive to other countries but not via a checkpoint because passports will be checked.
There are 29 countries within the Schengen Area and the way the system is supposed to work is that when someone enters the Schengen Area they are logged in the immigration system and after that can move around seamlessly within the boundaries of the member states. How it works in practical terms is unknown because if all citizens on bail in any one country could travel to another part of the Schengen Area to escape going to Court, it would be problematic. Maybe the EU think tanks covered that scenario.
Having said that, there are still checkpoints and country entry/exit points where passports do get checked because not all people that travel will be EU residents therefore will have passports checked.
There are 29 countries within the Schengen Area and the way the system is supposed to work is that when someone enters the Schengen Area they are logged in the immigration system and after that can move around seamlessly within the boundaries of the member states. How it works in practical terms is unknown because if all citizens on bail in any one country could travel to another part of the Schengen Area to escape going to Court, it would be problematic. Maybe the EU think tanks covered that scenario.
Having said that, there are still checkpoints and country entry/exit points where passports do get checked because not all people that travel will be EU residents therefore will have passports checked.
Stupid American Question: I know in the Schengen zone you can drive from country to country without stopping at borders. Yes, technically he is on an island at the moment, but if say Ver was in Madrid what would stop him from hopping in a car and driving to France? Is there any kind of monitoring that is done?
Kind of like here in the US, unless they make you wear an ankle monitor you can in theory hop in a car and go anywhere in the US. It's not legal and if you are caught there are penalties but there is nothing stopping you.
Kind of like here in the US, unless they make you wear an ankle monitor you can in theory hop in a car and go anywhere in the US. It's not legal and if you are caught there are penalties but there is nothing stopping you.
...He had to surrender his passport therefore cannot leave the country....
Stupid American Question: I know in the Schengen zone you can drive from country to country without stopping at borders. Yes, technically he is on an island at the moment, but if say Ver was in Madrid what would stop him from hopping in a car and driving to France? Is there any kind of monitoring that is done?
Kind of like here in the US, unless they make you wear an ankle monitor you can in theory hop in a car and go anywhere in the US. It's not legal and if you are caught there are penalties but there is nothing stopping you.
OTOH:
Quote from: ChrisRock
If the cops have to chase you they are bringing a beating with them.
-Dave
Nothing much has happened since the last post in this thread.
According to this article that is a few days old now, Ver is living in Mallorca since his bail was accepted. His lawyer managed to get him out of prison on bail payment of 150,000 Euro. He had to surrender his passport therefore cannot leave the country.
From what it seems, he arrived in Barcelona, Spain in his yacht and was arrested. The Department of Justice were tracking his movements. Somehow they knew he owned around 131,000 bitcoins when he renounced his US citizenship and became a citizen of St. Kitts and Nevis.
Eventually, he will be extradited unless he can secure a deal with the Department of Justice to make a tax payment in return for them dropping their case against him.
According to this article that is a few days old now, Ver is living in Mallorca since his bail was accepted. His lawyer managed to get him out of prison on bail payment of 150,000 Euro. He had to surrender his passport therefore cannot leave the country.
From what it seems, he arrived in Barcelona, Spain in his yacht and was arrested. The Department of Justice were tracking his movements. Somehow they knew he owned around 131,000 bitcoins when he renounced his US citizenship and became a citizen of St. Kitts and Nevis.
Eventually, he will be extradited unless he can secure a deal with the Department of Justice to make a tax payment in return for them dropping their case against him.
The finger in that video was seen by many and it damaged his standing. He also made a comment about how much wealth he had compared to the interviewer and that too was unacceptable behaviour by Ver.
At the time the events took place, Ver was happy to receive as much publicity as possible and he even went out of his way to ensure he was on the stage giving speeches and participating in debates around many crypto exhibitions around the world. If he has kept a low profile and not gone on a self-promoting media round then maybe things would have worked out different or him.
Having said that, if $48 million is being claimed then that is something Ver should be able to pay reasonably fast because he has the resources (unless he spent/lost most of his Bitcoin holding).
At the time the events took place, Ver was happy to receive as much publicity as possible and he even went out of his way to ensure he was on the stage giving speeches and participating in debates around many crypto exhibitions around the world. If he has kept a low profile and not gone on a self-promoting media round then maybe things would have worked out different or him.
Having said that, if $48 million is being claimed then that is something Ver should be able to pay reasonably fast because he has the resources (unless he spent/lost most of his Bitcoin holding).
I never liked Roger, especially after that video where he showed us the finger, but what amazes me is that he sold so many BTC for less than $1k - that's one.
Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.
It's also amazing that Ver hasn't been a US citizen for a decade and they come up with that right now? I feel like this isn't a coincidence and either some model citizen reminded the IRS about him, or maybe it has something to do with the recent attack on bitcoin wallets.
Then the part where he changed citizenship and was required to pay exit tax - like WTF? The country bullies you, you decide you don't want to live there anymore, so they want you to pay them for leaving? What kind of law is that? I'm sure many people aren't even aware of such rule.
It's also amazing that Ver hasn't been a US citizen for a decade and they come up with that right now? I feel like this isn't a coincidence and either some model citizen reminded the IRS about him, or maybe it has something to do with the recent attack on bitcoin wallets.
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Interesting that he wasn't extradited. I don't understand how the US can hold a tax trial in Spain.
As far as I can see he has been granted parole but faces possible extradition to the USA, meaning that the trial would be held in the USA, but preliminary investigations are being carried out in Spain. It is a bit confusing, as I do not understand if these investigations are being done because he is accused of something in Spain as well or as a kind of collaboration with the US authorities.
https://es.cointelegraph.com/news/roger-ver-bail-spain-extradition-united-states
Bitcoin Jesus se enfrenta a su extradición tras quedar en libertad bajo fianza en España
Interesting that he wasn't extradited. I don't understand how the US can hold a tax trial in Spain.
Really wish they'd stop using the term 'Bitcoin Jesus'. Supposedly, as I understand it, Jesus never hoarded wealth or celebrated it. 'Bitcoin Evangelist' is far more appropriate, but 'Bcash Shill' is even moreso.
Really wish they'd stop using the term 'Bitcoin Jesus'. Supposedly, as I understand it, Jesus never hoarded wealth or celebrated it. 'Bitcoin Evangelist' is far more appropriate, but 'Bcash Shill' is even moreso.
Roger Ver was released on bail from Spanish prison and he had to pay $163,000 for this.
He won't be able to leave the Spain because he handed over his passport, and he agreed to confirm his presence to court all the time.
His lawyers confirmed that Roger is not going to become a fugitive and run away, and it's going to be interesting to follow this case in fiture.
https://news.todayq.com/bitcoin-jesus-bail-drama-unfolds-in-spain/
He won't be able to leave the Spain because he handed over his passport, and he agreed to confirm his presence to court all the time.
His lawyers confirmed that Roger is not going to become a fugitive and run away, and it's going to be interesting to follow this case in fiture.
https://news.todayq.com/bitcoin-jesus-bail-drama-unfolds-in-spain/
That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.
The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?
Taxation is not theft, taxes are necessary to have a strong country but the problem is that taxes are collected from regular citizens and abused by the rich and politicians, they use collected taxes for their own benefit, to buy mansions, have great holidays and etc...The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?
I think that if tax rate will be normal, people won't try to find ways to avoid it. Low tax rates leave people with more money, leave companies with high revenue and doesn't force them to find a loophole in offshored because low % doesn't worth the headache when difference isn't huge. More money motivates both, people and companies to produce more good and improves their well-being. Collected taxes help the government to do many good things for citizens, to build a better country, improve infrastructure and etc... But if they collect taxes, they shouldn't start printing money because printing money is another form of tax and that's very unfair game for citizens. If I have to pay 10% tax, let me pay 10% tax and don't force me to pay the debt that you take.
So in a way, everyone spends a great deal of their lives working for the benefit of the government while receiving little or nothing in return, which makes some people believe this is a disguised form of slavery, a claim a bit too dramatic for my tastes, but I can see where they are coming from.
Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.
What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.
What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.
That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.
The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?
I think that if tax rate will be normal, people won't try to find ways to avoid it. Low tax rates leave people with more money, leave companies with high revenue and doesn't force them to find a loophole in offshored because low % doesn't worth the headache when difference isn't huge. More money motivates both, people and companies to produce more good and improves their well-being. Collected taxes help the government to do many good things for citizens, to build a better country, improve infrastructure and etc... But if they collect taxes, they shouldn't start printing money because printing money is another form of tax and that's very unfair game for citizens. If I have to pay 10% tax, let me pay 10% tax and don't force me to pay the debt that you take.
Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.
What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.
What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.
That's why some people believe "taxation is theft". You get charged taxes on top of taxes, leaving you with little money in return. Unclear tax laws will ultimately perjudicate taxpayers in the long run. You could be labeled a "tax evader" without even knowing it. Especially if you earn money with crypto.
The same fate of Roger Ver awaits many crypto holders in the US. You can't hide from "Big Brother", can you?
The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.
This is absolutely right, my lecturer was a woman who was in charge on these things and she told me that they simply didn't know what to do with Bitcoin and in my country, for that reason, she told me that she (and her team) lets people to not pay taxes because first of all, they don't know what to do with it and second of all, if people make money, let them make money without taxing only in this case, for a while.not a lawyer or tax person but in the usa its pretty clear.. if you make profit you pay taxes. makes no difference how the profit was made.. tag sale, ebay, work, whatever. pay the tax on it in USD.
now long term vs short term gains etc might be an issue back then.
iirc my cpa had me report my gpu mined coin sales as straight income back around the 2013 timeframe. id have to check records to be sure.
Btw if you have to pay so many taxes in the USA, why do so many people cross the Mexico-USA border, and sell houses to move in the USA? Also as far as I know, the US citizen should pay taxes even if he moves to another country.
Not sure who told you that but it was 100% wrong.
Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.
Always has been.
https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-guidance-thieves-drug-dealers-and-corrupt-officials/
-Dave
I wasn't talking about the USA, I was talking about my country, Georgia. Does not matter where income / profit come from it all has to be declared.
Always has been.
https://taxfoundation.org/blog/irs-guidance-thieves-drug-dealers-and-corrupt-officials/
-Dave
Another fucked up thing is, they are holding him responsible for something that happened 10 years ago. In my country tax investigations can only include the last 5 years. So if they didn’t catch you for 5 years, you’ll not be getting punished ever again for whatever you did or didn’t do. I guess there is no expiration date on tax evasion in the US. Me no likey
Tax laws will get more crazy during the next years, after all many countries have huge levels of debt and not everything can be fixed by printing more money.What governments need is to get more money from their citizens in the form of taxes, so prepare yourself for even more draconian laws to be enacted, even of this means that at the end governments will get less tax revenue as the Laffer curve takes place and a counter-productive effect is achieved instead.
Another fucked up thing is, they are holding him responsible for something that happened 10 years ago. In my country tax investigations can only include the last 5 years. So if they didn’t catch you for 5 years, you’ll not be getting punished ever again for whatever you did or didn’t do. I guess there is no expiration date on tax evasion in the US. Me no likey
The problem is, people didn’t know what to do with their gains on bitcoin back in the day. We are talking about the 2013-2014 era if I am not mistaken. During those years, what was the US’ position on bitcoin? Most legal authorities didn’t know what to do with it. Coinbase (the exchange) was only 1 year old. Bitcoin itself was 5 years old. Let alone the taxman, nobody really knew shit.
I am pretty sure many US citizens didn’t pay shit from the crypto capital gains they have made 10 years ago. Somehow I feel like they hand picked Roger. Maybe it is because he was an easy target since he have lots of money.
A few years ago I remember that Peter Schiff also got into trouble with the IRS but unlike Roger, Peter knows the tax shit very well since his father died in prison for evading taxes. So he actually got an apology from the IRS in the end because there was no wrongdoing.
I am pretty sure many US citizens didn’t pay shit from the crypto capital gains they have made 10 years ago. Somehow I feel like they hand picked Roger. Maybe it is because he was an easy target since he have lots of money.
A few years ago I remember that Peter Schiff also got into trouble with the IRS but unlike Roger, Peter knows the tax shit very well since his father died in prison for evading taxes. So he actually got an apology from the IRS in the end because there was no wrongdoing.
Yes. I've forgot there was a lot of confusion back then regarding crypto taxation. Regulations were unclear, and the industry was just starting to blossom. It was the wild west. So there could be many others like Roger who "missed" paying their taxes on their crypto income. We could blame the US government (particularly the IRS) for this.
I'm afraid the "witch hunt" will continue until they catch every person who "evaded" taxes. Those who're beginning to make substantial amounts of money with crypto in the US, better pay their taxes on-time before it gets too late. Hopefully, things will get better for the industry in America over the long term.
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