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Topic: Mixers to be banned - page 13. (Read 23908 times)

member
Activity: 77
Merit: 89
January 02, 2024, 04:08:32 PM
Quote
Is there any visible (not encrypted or external link) pedo pr0n jpeg in the BTC blockchain?
I don't know if it is, because it will not be exposed that easily, as long as Scanners are not widely deployed. But there were also some malware on the chain, some XSS attacks (because some web wallets and block explorers displayed blockchain data directly, so it was possible to attack them in that way).

In general, blockchain contains a lot of surprises. And if people want "decentralized" things, they usually don't think, that to reach it properly, they would need to send and receive a lot of data, which does not belong to them. This is one of the costs of decentralization. Instead of one central point of failure, each peer does the job of that centralized server, which means, each peer has to handle his own traffic, and also the traffic that is only passed to other peers, but never displayed.

Which means, if you want to hide your payments, you need a full node, which will send and receive transactions, made by other people. And the same is true in case of decentralized forum: you would need to send and receive posts, written by people you don't like, or don't care about (or a significant portion of the network would need to do so, because there should be enough full nodes, to handle all SPV clients).

And for many legal reasons, it is highly encouraged to encrypt data-related things. In case of payments, public keys and signature nonces are considered to be random (and they can be batched in the future, if too much data will be posted). But in case of cloud storage, encryption is a tool, to not be legally responsible for the content, that is passing through a given node.
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
January 02, 2024, 03:38:25 PM
Quote
How come nobody has uploaded pedo pr0n in the BTC blockchain as an NFT?
1. It was harder, and more expensive in the past. Now, there is a ready-to-use tool, called Ordinals client, which will make that easier, than it was before.

2. It was done in the past. There were at least links, but in some cases, there were some encrypted images.

3. Rule 34, and Rule 35 applies here as well:

Quote
Rule 34. There is pr0n of it, no exception.
Rule 35. If no pr0n is found at the moment, it will be made.

And of course, a fully-decentralized cloud storage, will also have it. But with sufficient moderation, and a good blacklist, and whitelist, it is something we can deal with. Take mailing list for example: it is moderated, so such things are not posted there, even if someone could send it.
Is there any visible (not encrypted or external link) pedo pr0n jpeg in the BTC blockchain?

If so, all BTC nodes are illegal by definition.

That's why I believe NFTs shouldn't exist in the first place (unless there's moderation, which could easily turn into censorship).

ps: Cost is not an issue if you're determined to destroy BTC.
full member
Activity: 270
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January 02, 2024, 02:45:37 PM
That is insane.

Terrible news and terrible decision. Whoever is arguing in favor of it is effectively a government censorship and anti-privacy shill.
legendary
Activity: 4326
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'The right to privacy matters'
January 02, 2024, 01:58:45 PM
Again: arguing for the sake of arguing (semantics). Had a bad day or what?

The protocol (never said anything about clients) is officially called BitTorrent, just like Bitcoin is called Bitcoin. I've been using torrents for 20 years, I don't need lecturing.

You also dismissed this post for some strange reason:

I reckon we can have a decent decentralized forum protocol if FTTH (100 Mbps upload) becomes the baseline.

With ADSL (1 Mbps upload) it's not really possible... ADSL is fine for BTC, that's why Satoshi released it in 2009 (when ADSL was already becoming the norm).
I never said a decentralized forum protocol is feasible right now, don't put words in my mouth.

I said we need higher upload to create more elaborate decentralized apps (whether it's a forum or Artificial Intelligence to rival the centralized ChatGPT).

Back in 2003 many people didn't even have ADSL, they were stuck in dial-up (even in the US). Therefore it was not a good time to release Bitcoin (even if it was ready).

Nobody "demands" anything, not even Theymos (but he clearly wants a decentralized forum WHEN it becomes feasible!).

Have some patience and don't be such a pessimist. Smiley

I'm not giving any semantics, I'm just saying that what you want is not viable at the moment. I didn't discard any message, I just didn't mention something that I didn't consider relevant.




The best we could do now is mirror it in a more friendly country and we lose the security of having one guy you really need to trust (theymos) the mirror back up in a second country would mean at least one other person needs full access to the entire forum since theymos cannot be in two places at the same time.

Also you are still asking theymos to put him or herself at risk from the USA based system since theymos is USA based.  Nevermind the second country could turn on you and go after that mirror setup.

A forum like Bitcointalk is quite demanding in terms of resources. Unfortunately, the best servers for this purpose are in the USA or Europe. Therefore, it is difficult to try to find a mirror outside of these locations that is minimally viable to operate. And between Europe and the USA, perhaps the USA is still the one with the best guarantees.

   Japan and South Korea have some good IT infrastructure. But as I said you then need a safe guy ie a Theymos Clone so to speak that could be trusted to run the mirror as it would be an equal to the original. I think the risk that theymos II turns rouge could be just as bad as the risk that the USA government shuts down Bitcointalk I.

 
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 89
January 02, 2024, 01:39:34 PM
Quote
How come nobody has uploaded pedo pr0n in the BTC blockchain as an NFT?
1. It was harder, and more expensive in the past. Now, there is a ready-to-use tool, called Ordinals client, which will make that easier, than it was before.

2. It was done in the past. There were at least links, but in some cases, there were some encrypted images.

3. Rule 34, and Rule 35 applies here as well:

Quote
Rule 34. There is pr0n of it, no exception.
Rule 35. If no pr0n is found at the moment, it will be made.

And of course, a fully-decentralized cloud storage, will also have it. But with sufficient moderation, and a good blacklist, and whitelist, it is something we can deal with. Take mailing list for example: it is moderated, so such things are not posted there, even if someone could send it.
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
January 02, 2024, 01:28:03 PM
Guys, in decentralization if you mean that no post will get removed and no topic or subject will get banned, then keep in mind that many people might also post some illegal and unwanted things. That will bring more problems.
How come nobody has uploaded pedo pr0n in the BTC blockchain as an NFT?

BTC has way too many enemies who would love to see it destroyed...
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1713
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January 02, 2024, 01:22:02 PM
As far a minority of people who care about freedom of speech is concerned, I agree (and I think most here would). It seems that by far the majority of members (that were posting their opposition to the mixer ban) were motivated by the payments being made by them and had mixers paid less most other campaigns many of them would not have bothered complaining.

Believe me, many people only care about the fact that mixer signature campaign was paying high sum of money compared to other campaigns and that's why they miss it and beg theymos to change his mind. If mixer campaigns weren't about to pay lots of money to participants, then there wouldn't be much discussion about banning them. There is only a minority of people who really care about the freedom of speech and genuine discussion.
member
Activity: 77
Merit: 89
January 02, 2024, 12:43:55 PM
Quote
Guys, in decentralization if you mean that no post will get removed and no topic or subject will get banned, then keep in mind that many people might also post some illegal and unwanted things. That will bring more problems.
Of course, for that reason peer-level-moderation is needed. Which means that yes, some content can be removed, and even should be removed. And who should do that?

1. Your own node. If you notice something ban-worthy, then you remove it from your node.

2. Your trusted peers. And by "peers", I don't think about your direct P2P connections, here and now, but rather the list of public keys of some unknown posters, which historically were good moderators, and which you decided to trust to some extent, to not be exposed into some very bad content. If someone would post naked photos, it is enough for one moderator to see that, it doesn't have to be shared with every node, if you trust that moderator. And you can still download that by default, if you decide to do so, you just don't have to watch that by default.

Which also means, that some unwanted messages will be probably relayed, but not displayed, if you choose to not display it. In this way, nothing will be "banned" (unless you, as a P2P peer, decide to drop a particular message, but then others may choose to broadcast it anyway).

So, when it comes to "banning" and "censorship", it is a different matter in decentralized forums. Because there are different kinds of ban:

1. Display-level ban: just a regular moderation. You decide to not display it. Or one of the "peer-moderators" you picked, decided to do so. But the message is still broadcasted over the network.

2. Relay-level ban: moderation enforced only by your node. It is similar to not relaying transactions below 10 satoshis per virtual byte. Your node can decide to do so, but others can pick some different rules.

There are other possible bans, but those two are the most common, if the network is used as intended. Which means for example, that you don't reuse public keys, and you don't know, who posted which message (unless you know master public key of that person, but even then, you can never be sure).
hero member
Activity: 882
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January 02, 2024, 12:08:35 PM
Also you are still asking theymos to put him or herself at risk from the USA based system since theymos is USA based.  Nevermind the second country could turn on you and go after that mirror setup.
Believe me, many people only care about the fact that mixer signature campaign was paying high sum of money compared to other campaigns and that's why they miss it and beg theymos to change his mind. If mixer campaigns weren't about to pay lots of money to participants, then there wouldn't be much discussion about banning them. There is only a minority of people who really care about the freedom of speech and genuine discussion.


Guys, in decentralization if you mean that no post will get removed and no topic or subject will get banned, then keep in mind that many people might also post some illegal and unwanted things. That will bring more problems.
legendary
Activity: 1862
Merit: 5154
**In BTC since 2013**
January 02, 2024, 11:30:11 AM
Again: arguing for the sake of arguing (semantics). Had a bad day or what?

The protocol (never said anything about clients) is officially called BitTorrent, just like Bitcoin is called Bitcoin. I've been using torrents for 20 years, I don't need lecturing.

You also dismissed this post for some strange reason:

I reckon we can have a decent decentralized forum protocol if FTTH (100 Mbps upload) becomes the baseline.

With ADSL (1 Mbps upload) it's not really possible... ADSL is fine for BTC, that's why Satoshi released it in 2009 (when ADSL was already becoming the norm).
I never said a decentralized forum protocol is feasible right now, don't put words in my mouth.

I said we need higher upload to create more elaborate decentralized apps (whether it's a forum or Artificial Intelligence to rival the centralized ChatGPT).

Back in 2003 many people didn't even have ADSL, they were stuck in dial-up (even in the US). Therefore it was not a good time to release Bitcoin (even if it was ready).

Nobody "demands" anything, not even Theymos (but he clearly wants a decentralized forum WHEN it becomes feasible!).

Have some patience and don't be such a pessimist. Smiley

I'm not giving any semantics, I'm just saying that what you want is not viable at the moment. I didn't discard any message, I just didn't mention something that I didn't consider relevant.




The best we could do now is mirror it in a more friendly country and we lose the security of having one guy you really need to trust (theymos) the mirror back up in a second country would mean at least one other person needs full access to the entire forum since theymos cannot be in two places at the same time.

Also you are still asking theymos to put him or herself at risk from the USA based system since theymos is USA based.  Nevermind the second country could turn on you and go after that mirror setup.

A forum like Bitcointalk is quite demanding in terms of resources. Unfortunately, the best servers for this purpose are in the USA or Europe. Therefore, it is difficult to try to find a mirror outside of these locations that is minimally viable to operate. And between Europe and the USA, perhaps the USA is still the one with the best guarantees.
legendary
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January 02, 2024, 10:34:58 AM
This might be off-topic but the numbers being stated are quite shocking. I understand the geographic contributions that make the disparity possible but still,  when you reflect on the fact that they are being attributed to the supposed richest nation on earth you do ask why that is the case.

If city households have the fastest available internet because of fibre optics then surely rural communities should have been getting mobile 4g/5g connections from dongles or hotspots (or even Starlink at government subsidised reduced costs).

~snip~
Back in 2003 many people didn't even have ADSL, they were stuck in dial-up (even in the US). Therefore it was not a good time to release Bitcoin (even if it was ready).
A few years ago, some data showed that as many as 265 000 households in the US used dial-up internet, and although that number is certainly lower today, some still have super slow internet. I think many live in the illusion that the entire US looks like downtown New York or some big city, when in fact there are parts of the country where everything looks like time stopped 50 or more years ago.

I don't believe that Satoshi was waiting for some internet revolution to happen to let the genie out of the bottle - it just happened at the moment when everything was ready. In addition, even today around 35-40% of people in the world do not have access to the Internet, and 15 years ago this percentage was significantly higher.
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'
January 02, 2024, 10:34:27 AM
The best we could do now is mirror it in a more friendly country and we lose the security of having one guy you really need to trust (theymos) the mirror back up in a second country would mean at least one other person needs full access to the entire forum since theymos cannot be in two places at the same time.

Also you are still asking theymos to put him or herself at risk from the USA based system since theymos is USA based.  Nevermind the second country could turn on you and go after that mirror setup.
Your post gave me an idea like what we seen Binance and Stake have their own dedicated sites for US jurisdiction. If bitcointalk.org is subject to US laws, maybe we need a second domain like bitcointalkall.org that's subject to friendly country laws. Maybe Cyrus might be able to help Tongue , not sure if Romania is friendly with privacy, to be more specify a tumbler.

I agree that looks more possible than wanting a decentralized forum, not even to mention epochtalk.

This a clever improvement or spin on my idea.  Maybe it is the way to go.
hero member
Activity: 1064
Merit: 843
January 02, 2024, 10:17:29 AM
The best we could do now is mirror it in a more friendly country and we lose the security of having one guy you really need to trust (theymos) the mirror back up in a second country would mean at least one other person needs full access to the entire forum since theymos cannot be in two places at the same time.

Also you are still asking theymos to put him or herself at risk from the USA based system since theymos is USA based.  Nevermind the second country could turn on you and go after that mirror setup.
Your post gave me an idea like what we seen Binance and Stake have their own dedicated sites for US jurisdiction. If bitcointalk.org is subject to US laws, maybe we need a second domain like bitcointalkall.org that's subject to friendly country laws. Maybe Cyrus might be able to help Tongue , not sure if Romania is friendly with privacy, to be more specify a tumbler.

I agree that looks more possible than wanting a decentralized forum, not even to mention epochtalk.
legendary
Activity: 4326
Merit: 8950
'The right to privacy matters'
January 02, 2024, 09:45:36 AM
Arguing for the sake of arguing much?  Roll Eyes

You didn't answer my questions, you just keep making new questions demanding answers...

What answer do you want me to answer?
How am I going to talk about a technology that doesn't exist today, or rather that isn't viable for a forum of this size, mainly because I don't have the resources to invent something like that?

What I can say is that creating a decentralized forum today is impossible and completely unfeasible.

The example I gave was torrent, not BitTorrent. BitTorrent is a torrent client, which is clearly not decentralized.
Do you know how torrent works? So imagine the same for the website. How can an ordinary person access a website, without having to install specific software, download the entire database that can be larger than a 4K Blu-ray movie, and then browse?

But wait, it only takes 1 byte to depend on one person, so it won't be decentralized.

Is Bitcoin decentralized? Yes, yours because anyone can set up a node and run it. But, Bitcoin is linear and not dynamic. It is mathematical work, always the same, that always produces the same type of data. A forum is highly dynamic, where all users produce different content, where features change over time, and many other things happen in a matter of seconds.

It cannot be compared when the type of data transmitted is always the same, with other services that are very varied in terms of data. The greater the data variation, the more complex and longer the processing process.

I'm not saying that in the future there won't be something really functional that makes this type of site decentralized. But at the moment it doesn't exist. Therefore, I cannot demand the forum to become decentralized.



The best we could do now is mirror it in a more friendly country and we lose the security of having one guy you really need to trust (theymos) the mirror back up in a second country would mean at least one other person needs full access to the entire forum since theymos cannot be in two places at the same time.

Also you are still asking theymos to put him or herself at risk from the USA based system since theymos is USA based.  Nevermind the second country could turn on you and go after that mirror setup.
member
Activity: 77
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January 02, 2024, 09:44:39 AM
Quote
they write the same shit from two different accounts in a different manner using text spinners or what ever
Yes, a simple GPT-like program is enough. But not to generate the content: that's what Newbies do. It can be used to alter it, and change the style, just a little bit, here and there.

Quote
or they are separating the accounts into subjects they cover and subjects they do not
This is possible, but hard to do in practice. And it is more natural to share the same interests with your friend/brother/whatever, than pretend, that "I never heard of UserName". And also, sometimes you want to reply as UserNameOne, and sometimes as UserNameTwo. It is easier to share similar topics, if you want to do that, because then, you can reply to yourself, and bump the topic, while staying "within the rules".

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If my Bitcoin Talk earnings were significant for the country I live in, I could simply write a post and hand out my keyboard to some body I live with so they could make changes here and there to make it seem like they were writing it and not me.
It is easier to find some online account with a low rank, and send a PM, with the content to be posted. There are more than enough people willing to do so. They can keep their merits, because content creators, which are smart enough, are usually Legendary (or would have that rank, if all of their posts would be submitted from the same account). And after being Legendary, what is the point of using the same account? It is more profitable to boost some alt-accounts, and it is better for privacy. And note that having alt-accounts is allowed.

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Would the manager notice?
Of course not. He would pick two or three posts, each written by the same person, but posted by different alt-accounts, and will submit that in his merit source application.

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Is it shit posting and spam if some body helps out two different people through two replies of the same essence?
No, because if it would be treated like that, then every time when somebody would ask a question, that already was answered by someone else, people would be forced to link into that, and stop elaborating about the details, or adding anything new.

Quote
It is spam and shit posting if some body is writing nonsense twice or two replies containing the same message from the same account, but what makes it different in the situation presented above?
For that reason, having alt-accounts is not punished. First, it is good for privacy. Second, it lowers your rank, and your merit counter, because it is splitted into N different accounts, instead of being joined into one account. And third, it is hard to enforce, if you are talking with a smart would-be-Legendary, that is splitted between five Hero-Members, a bunch of Newbies, and me, who posted it. And it is even harder to notice, if all accounts use Tor (and bridges or public WiFis, to create an account for the first time).

Also, for the same reason, sending merits to yourself is not punished (because yes, if you want to build a trustworthy alt-account, then you also have to do things like that, and "waste" some merits in the process).

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Is it spam if I tell OP1 how safe it is to store Bitcoin in a Cold Storage from Account A and 5 minutes later I tell OP2 the same thing written differently from Account B?
It depends on the content. If you would normally post the first part from your first account, and you would edit your post, by appending the content of the second post, to a single one, then the publicly shared content would be the same.

Which means, this:

Quote
First post...

Edit: Second post...

Is equivalent to that:

Quote
Quote
First post...
Quote
Second post...

But sometimes you want the former, and sometimes the latter. And you need some alt-accounts, to avoid double-posting. Also, those accounts are useful, if you want to disagree with yourself, because some people cannot understand, that it is smart to learn from your past mistakes.

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In theory this is helpful and not bad information but tell me which Manager would pick a participant who writes the same message twice every now and then.
I can give you the name of that manager, and maybe even link to his merit source application, where he picked some of my alt-accounts in his 10 posts, but I wonder, if I should do that publicly. By the way, he is not that bad person, to deserve such fate. It is rather a confirmation, that I separated my accounts properly.

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There is a way to avoid pretty much any rule if some body wants to.
Of course. The smarter you are, the more power you can gain.

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I can bet however that we had many alts in the past in some of the most well paid Campaigns on our Forum.
You are talking with one of them right now. But obviously, he is using some alt, to post it, and some Newbie agreed to copy-paste this content, without even reading it, and is now waiting for some merits. I think he could be disappointed, but there are many people, willing to post my content.

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If we have decentralized money, how hard would it be to have a decentralized forum?
It is not that hard. Some moderators will be probably unhappy about this offtopic, in a topic about mixers. But I will reply anyway: if you want decentralized forum, then you can just create Merged Mining sidechain, with merits, expressed as coins, with accounts, expressed as public keys, and with the forum history, that would be possible to download by each "forum full node".

You can do that, if you want to. But note, that it will bring you more problems, than you can expect. Some people tried "decentralized cloud storage" or "decentralized code repository". Even "decentralized chess" or "decentralized poker" was here and there. But those solutions has their drawbacks, and by having a simple, centralized forum, you can avoid some of them. As long, as your "experiment" will not be pushed on-chain, as Ordinals are, it is fine, and I can even join your project. Good luck.

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if it needs administration there's liability and real people can't really be decentralized
It doesn't need administration. But it always needs moderation. It can be done by each participant separately, then you have something like signet, where each node can decide, which post is worth reading or not, by signing blocks (to prevent spam), and by giving merits (coins) to encourage good posters, and to ban bad posters, on a protocol level.

But of course, if you want to make it popular, you will also need browser-like functionality. Which means, some clearnet page, that will act like a SPV node, is highly recommended. And in that specific place, you can have any administration you need. But in a pure, decentralized world, it is optional.

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If a platform needs intelligence for moderation, how do you remove liability so authorities can't just shut it down with targeted arrests?
First, you use Tor. Second, there is no mod or admin, that acts globally. Everyone has an ability to pick posts, which are worth sharing, and then, people naturally follow someone, who provides a good content. Which means, each node will act as a peer-moderator, and you simply connect to the one, which you want to read content from.

But of course, the final outcome of such model, is not "better" or "worse", than what we have today. It is just different. And, similar to Bitcoin, if you want to increase your privacy, then you reserve some resources, like bandwidth, to handle the traffic, that you are not interested in, but you process it anyway, and share with other nodes. Or you can use SPV node, but then, some full nodes are needed, to keep that network alive.

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Money doesn't seem to be the issue here.
True.

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The problem is lack of new ideas and lack of motivated people to execute them.
The second one is the problem. The first one is easy, for example the model I described, was tested to some extent. But if you join any fully-decentralized network, then you should know, what are some drawbacks. For example, if you use Tor, you should know, what is the dark side of being anonymous, and how some people can misuse it. And you can read, what happened with Omegle, where it was possible to talk with strangers. The human factor is the biggest issue here.

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New Year in the middle of winter, it never made sense to me
Because originally, the first month was March, when Spring begins. And then, having February as the last month, with less days, was not an issue. But it was moved two months back, for historical reasons.

Even more than that: there were calendars, where each month had 30 days, and there was "5 days tail", where people believed, that it is some kind of "Friday 13th", but longer.

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how are you going to download it to get started? Centralized on Github?
No, you download posts, like every other transaction. But yes, having "blockchain for cloud storage" is not that cheap, as having "blockchain for payments".
legendary
Activity: 3234
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January 02, 2024, 09:23:21 AM
~snip~
Back in 2003 many people didn't even have ADSL, they were stuck in dial-up (even in the US). Therefore it was not a good time to release Bitcoin (even if it was ready).


A few years ago, some data showed that as many as 265 000 households in the US used dial-up internet, and although that number is certainly lower today, some still have super slow internet. I think many live in the illusion that the entire US looks like downtown New York or some big city, when in fact there are parts of the country where everything looks like time stopped 50 or more years ago.

I don't believe that Satoshi was waiting for some internet revolution to happen to let the genie out of the bottle - it just happened at the moment when everything was ready. In addition, even today around 35-40% of people in the world do not have access to the Internet, and 15 years ago this percentage was significantly higher.

By 2019, Census estimates put dial-up internet use at around 0.2% of households, meaning as of 2019, at least 265,000 people in the U.S. were still using dial-up for home internet access. This cratering of dial-up subscribers found in the Census data is also reflected in survey data from National Telecommunications and Information Administration. Dial-up internet usage has been below 1% since sometime in 2015.[/size]

Currently, some 42 million Americans have no access to broadband, according to Broadband Now, a data technology company.
sr. member
Activity: 1666
Merit: 310
January 02, 2024, 08:40:43 AM
Arguing for the sake of arguing much?  Roll Eyes

You didn't answer my questions, you just keep making new questions demanding answers...

What answer do you want me to answer?
How am I going to talk about a technology that doesn't exist today, or rather that isn't viable for a forum of this size, mainly because I don't have the resources to invent something like that?

What I can say is that creating a decentralized forum today is impossible and completely unfeasible.

The example I gave was torrent, not BitTorrent. BitTorrent is a torrent client, which is clearly not decentralized.
Do you know how torrent works? So imagine the same for the website. How can an ordinary person access a website, without having to install specific software, download the entire database that can be larger than a 4K Blu-ray movie, and then browse?

But wait, it only takes 1 byte to depend on one person, so it won't be decentralized.

Is Bitcoin decentralized? Yes, yours because anyone can set up a node and run it. But, Bitcoin is linear and not dynamic. It is mathematical work, always the same, that always produces the same type of data. A forum is highly dynamic, where all users produce different content, where features change over time, and many other things happen in a matter of seconds.

It cannot be compared when the type of data transmitted is always the same, with other services that are very varied in terms of data. The greater the data variation, the more complex and longer the processing process.

I'm not saying that in the future there won't be something really functional that makes this type of site decentralized. But at the moment it doesn't exist. Therefore, I cannot demand the forum to become decentralized.
Again: arguing for the sake of arguing (semantics). Had a bad day or what?

The protocol (never said anything about clients) is officially called BitTorrent, just like Bitcoin is called Bitcoin. I've been using torrents for 20 years, I don't need lecturing.

You also dismissed this post for some strange reason:

I reckon we can have a decent decentralized forum protocol if FTTH (100 Mbps upload) becomes the baseline.

With ADSL (1 Mbps upload) it's not really possible... ADSL is fine for BTC, that's why Satoshi released it in 2009 (when ADSL was already becoming the norm).
I never said a decentralized forum protocol is feasible right now, don't put words in my mouth.

I said we need higher upload to create more elaborate decentralized apps (whether it's a forum or Artificial Intelligence to rival the centralized ChatGPT).

Back in 2003 many people didn't even have ADSL, they were stuck in dial-up (even in the US). Therefore it was not a good time to release Bitcoin (even if it was ready).

Nobody "demands" anything, not even Theymos (but he clearly wants a decentralized forum WHEN it becomes feasible!).

Have some patience and don't be such a pessimist. Smiley

It's just that not even torrents - perhaps the most decentralized products that exist on the internet - are really decentralized.  Roll Eyes
Torrents with Magnet links are as decentralized as it gets: one link, that can be shared on different websites and any other way you want, contains all the information you need to connect to multiple different trackers. The trackers will connect you to other people sharing and downloading the files you want. I don't think there's a limit to the number of trackers, seeders and leechers, so it's pretty decentralized.
True.

You don't even need a tracker with DHT/PEX. Peers will be found automatically.

The problems become evident when older, less popular torrents no longer have seeders. I've seen torrents with many incomplete leechers and no full seeders. If that happens to your decentralized forum, it basically ends.
That's the big failure of BitTorrent IMHO: it doesn't have applied game theory.

Seeding is basically charity work (same for BTC nodes), unlike BTC mining which rewards you handsomely.

It's just that not even torrents - perhaps the most decentralized products that exist on the internet - are really decentralized.  Roll Eyes
Torrents with Magnet links are as decentralized as it gets: one link, that can be shared on different websites and any other way you want, contains all the information you need to connect to multiple different trackers. The trackers will connect you to other trackers, and to other people sharing and downloading the files you want. I don't think there's a limit to the number of trackers, seeders and leechers, so it's pretty decentralized.
The problems become evident when older, less popular torrents no longer have seeders. I've seen torrents with many incomplete leechers and no full seeders. If that happens to your decentralized forum, it basically ends.

They are also banned by many home ISPs so even though this is already an impractical solution to host a forum or perhaps even a BBS (if you want to go retro), there are also legal implications to this as well.
You can use VPN. China doesn't have the most free internet access and yet, people use VPNs to avoid restrictions.

Internet is decentralized, since TCP/IP is a permissionless protocol (just like Bitcoin).
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 02, 2024, 08:39:06 AM
They are also banned by many home ISPs so even though this is already an impractical solution to host a forum or perhaps even a BBS (if you want to go retro), there are also legal implications to this as well.
Really? I know ISPs have been forced to deny access to for instance TPB, but I haven't read any stories of actually blocking the torrent protocol. That would be a huge violation of net neutrality, and (here) it's forbidden for ISPs to restrict for instance bandwidth.
That being said: decentralization comes with another problem: you don't want every forum users to see IP addresses of every other forum user. So a VPN or even better Tor would be required anyway, and the ISP won't know you're using a decentralized forum with magic internet money.
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
January 02, 2024, 08:35:10 AM
It's just that not even torrents - perhaps the most decentralized products that exist on the internet - are really decentralized.  Roll Eyes
Torrents with Magnet links are as decentralized as it gets: one link, that can be shared on different websites and any other way you want, contains all the information you need to connect to multiple different trackers. The trackers will connect you to other trackers, and to other people sharing and downloading the files you want. I don't think there's a limit to the number of trackers, seeders and leechers, so it's pretty decentralized.
The problems become evident when older, less popular torrents no longer have seeders. I've seen torrents with many incomplete leechers and no full seeders. If that happens to your decentralized forum, it basically ends.

They are also banned by many home ISPs so even though this is already an impractical solution to host a forum or perhaps even a BBS (if you want to go retro), there are also legal implications to this as well.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 02, 2024, 08:33:15 AM
It's just that not even torrents - perhaps the most decentralized products that exist on the internet - are really decentralized.  Roll Eyes
Torrents with Magnet links are as decentralized as it gets: one link, that can be shared on different websites and any other way you want, contains all the information you need to connect to multiple different trackers. The trackers will connect you to other trackers, and to other people sharing and downloading the files you want. I don't think there's a limit to the number of trackers, seeders and leechers, so it's pretty decentralized.
The problems become evident when older, less popular torrents no longer have seeders. I've seen torrents with many incomplete leechers and no full seeders. If that happens to your decentralized forum, it basically ends.
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