Topic: Mixers to be banned - page 8. (Read 23840 times)
There goes another business into the warm arms of altcointalk.
Previously, I was under the impression that Jambler was merely a software or platform provider, like Wordpress or AWS. But after reviewing it more closely, it meets the definition of a mixer as written. My mind was especially changed when I saw this diagram from their website:
The diagram clearly shows that Jambler is the actual mixer. They issue the "letters of guarantee", they send the BTC directly to the final customer, etc. The partners are just lightweight proxies in front of the true mixer, which is Jambler. Jambler "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property", and it meets the other two criteria, so it's a mixer.
(Maybe you could make the case that Jambler's actual customers are its partners instead of the final end-users, but even in that case Jambler is acting as a mixer for its partners. Jambler is the one doing the mixing. So it's still a mixer in either case.)
Since I had previously ruled that Jambler did not meet the definition of a mixer, and I've now changed my mind, there will be a short grace period: Jambler will be wordfiltered (and otherwise treated as a mixer) starting on April 22.
As with other banned mixers, please do not interpret this as a moral judgement. I'm not saying that Jambler is or is not bad.
The diagram clearly shows that Jambler is the actual mixer. They issue the "letters of guarantee", they send the BTC directly to the final customer, etc. The partners are just lightweight proxies in front of the true mixer, which is Jambler. Jambler "has a feature advertised for taking property, improving its privacy somehow, and then returning roughly the same type of property", and it meets the other two criteria, so it's a mixer.
(Maybe you could make the case that Jambler's actual customers are its partners instead of the final end-users, but even in that case Jambler is acting as a mixer for its partners. Jambler is the one doing the mixing. So it's still a mixer in either case.)
Since I had previously ruled that Jambler did not meet the definition of a mixer, and I've now changed my mind, there will be a short grace period: Jambler will be wordfiltered (and otherwise treated as a mixer) starting on April 22.
As with other banned mixers, please do not interpret this as a moral judgement. I'm not saying that Jambler is or is not bad.
Privacy coins do not promote in the forum, so they have no direct link to the forum.
If we assume that the presence of an ANN topic on a forum dedicated to a confidential coin is not promotion, then it is impossible to deny the presence of links to the confidential coin project. [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency - almost every second line is a direct link from the forum.
I would not like this to become the beginning of a new wave of banning all information about confidential coins on the forum.
Now there is such a trend of denial of confidential coins everywhere. 
I think theymos is trying to avoid many things altogether, such as; let this forum not be the next place of thought after dark web. But how long would this be avoided, I don't actually know.
I consider "dark web" to consist of stuff only accessible through Tor.
So I think a better comparison would be to the "shadow internet" - pirate streams, libgen, public trackers, etc.
Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
How can theymos ban privacy coins even if the regulators take action against them? Bitcointalk doesn't accept XMR or Zcash deposits as well as doesn't offer you XMR or Zcash trading. If regulators ban privacy coins, we won't be able to advertise services that offer exchanges of privacy coins. Discussion about privacy coins will be allowed unless someone starts promoting their usage or offers coin exchange. Why do I say this? Because it will be as simple as it is, drugs are prohibited, banned and illegal but discussion about them is accepted on as famous social networks as Reddit is.https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
I think theymos is trying to avoid many things altogether, such as; let this forum not be the next place of thought after dark web. But how long would this be avoided, I don't actually know.
There is a huge lobbying movement in the US which is pushing the agenda forward on matters that are beneficial to those that donate to senators. If someone gave a bundle of cash as a bribe to a senator to ask questions in congress or put forward their agenda it might be considered illegal but if it is a legal declared donation and then the very same thing happen it is acceptable and legally allowed. Strange.
In the case of banks and other big businesses including fossil fuel benefactors, they have a massive lobbying machine behind them and many in congress benefit from their donations.
By the way, criminals not only launder money via mixers but via banks too. JP Morgan is the best destination for money laundering but no one bans them or talks about them.
In the case of banks and other big businesses including fossil fuel benefactors, they have a massive lobbying machine behind them and many in congress benefit from their donations.
Mixers are banned because criminals are using them so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money because privacy coins lacks liquidity, they are not as liquid as Bitcoin, and criminals mainly use Bitcoin as and platform where they can conceal their identity.
If anything, it makes more sense to say that privacy coins are used for money laundering rather than bitcoin mixers are used for it. There are many articles that talk about Monero and money laundering but you hear mostly Bitcoin because it's a mainstream currency and media will attract attention with talking more about Bitcoin.By the way, criminals not only launder money via mixers but via banks too. JP Morgan is the best destination for money laundering but no one bans them or talks about them.
Mixers are banned because criminals are using them so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money because privacy coins lacks liquidity, they are not as liquid as Bitcoin, and criminals mainly use Bitcoin as and platform where they can conceal their identity.
If anything, it makes more sense to say that privacy coins are used for money laundering rather than bitcoin mixers are used for it. There are many articles that talk about Monero and money laundering but you hear mostly Bitcoin because it's a mainstream currency and media will attract attention with talking more about Bitcoin.By the way, criminals not only launder money via mixers but via banks too. JP Morgan is the best destination for money laundering but no one bans them or talks about them.
We are just speculating, that the mixer ban hopefully is the last platform that will be banned here and I don't think its the end of the forum if ever privacy coins will be banned here, the forum is not a platform or project reliant this is a Bitcoin discussion platform.
Probably, seeing Monero and other privacy coin related services getting banned on this forum is the last thing that's about to happen. At the moment we are safe and there is no reason for further bans. Discussion is allowed, so, that's one of the most significant part that matters. 
Mixers are banned because criminals are using them
Criminals are also using banks, fiat currencies, and everything else like the rest of the people.... so according to you everything should be banned 
In fact biggest thing that is used for money laundering is WAR and we can see non-stop wars popping up all the time around the world, that means sending big amounts of money.
Politicians in charge are much worse than any criminals they call out, like unknown hackers and terrorist that conveniently always show up when they are needed.
so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money
That's the dumbest thing I've read today. Of course privacy coins are being used by criminals, just like anything else in life is used by criminals. Cars, internet, delivery services, you name it, and it's used by criminals. But we're not banning cars, internet and delivery services because they also have legitimate uses.The phrase "money laundering" is often used incorrectly when it comes to mixers. The correct word would be "obfuscating", which is at most a small part of laundering. Or just for privacy which is a human right and not nefarious at all.
To launder money, you'll need a car wash in Albuquerque. Which we're not banning either.
Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
Mixers are banned because criminals are using them so far we have not heard the news that privacy coins are being used to launder money because privacy coins lacks liquidity, they are not as liquid as Bitcoin, and criminals mainly use Bitcoin as and platform where they can conceal their identity.
We are just speculating, that the mixer ban hopefully is the last platform that will be banned here and I don't think its the end of the forum if ever privacy coins will be banned here, the forum is not a platform or project reliant this is a Bitcoin discussion platform.
This change has caused some issues, such as identifying and reporting phishing mixer websites that use a portion of the real mixer domain name in their phishing domain name.
What's the point in knowing the exact phishing domain name? Just watch out, even if it's not on a list of phishing domains, it can still be a new one. Users now have to rely on other sources than Bitcointalk to find the real sites.As a rule of thumb: if you can post the mixer's URL, chances are it's a phishing site. But being word filtered still doesn't guarantee the site is real.
For example, they can find my thread and learn that a specific website domain is a scam and a phishing website. By conducting research, they can avoid falling victim to a specific phishing domain, which they might have wanted to use.
For a skilled scammer, creating a fake site is just a few hours of work, with $20 for a domain and hosting, the phishing site is online very quickly. I don't know how it is possible to collect information about all such sites, I guess we don't even know about half of them. What if there is a new page that is not yet on the blacklist?
As far as I know, there are currently around 15 "legitimate" mixers (maybe some more that I haven't heard of yet), while at the same time, I saw lists of phishing mixer sites with over 100 domains. Isn't it easier to remember those 15 pages or at least a couple of listing pages that only collect data from legal mixer services?
The most important thing should be that people are educated enough to recognize whether the site is original or fake.
It is possible that individuals may be tempted to use the best-ranked or longest-active phishing websites, assuming they are legitimate. However, my thread highlights the deceptive nature of these websites, revealing them as scams. Many newcomers to this field may struggle to differentiate between legitimate and fraudulent mixers. In light of this, I believe my efforts to identify and expose fake mixers, especially the top-ranked phishing websites that attract the most traffic, are crucial in protecting people from falling victim to scams.
Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
How can theymos ban privacy coins even if the regulators take action against them? Bitcointalk doesn't accept XMR or Zcash deposits as well as doesn't offer you XMR or Zcash trading. If regulators ban privacy coins, we won't be able to advertise services that offer exchanges of privacy coins. Discussion about privacy coins will be allowed unless someone starts promoting their usage or offers coin exchange. Why do I say this? Because it will be as simple as it is, drugs are prohibited, banned and illegal but discussion about them is accepted on as famous social networks as Reddit is.https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
Wow, I mean props to Theymos for being proactive on this, when SINBAD was seized that was a really big deal and I think it mainly hit home and got him thinking about doing this, maybe that was the final nudge. But now with privacy coins being banned its clear that the workaround from the fiat money system is not being tolerated. Theymos was definitely onto this and wants no part in having to deal with any goverment entities if he can help it i'm sure.
Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
How can theymos ban privacy coins even if the regulators take action against them? Bitcointalk doesn't accept XMR or Zcash deposits as well as doesn't offer you XMR or Zcash trading. If regulators ban privacy coins, we won't be able to advertise services that offer exchanges of privacy coins. Discussion about privacy coins will be allowed unless someone starts promoting their usage or offers coin exchange. Why do I say this? Because it will be as simple as it is, drugs are prohibited, banned and illegal but discussion about them is accepted on as famous social networks as Reddit is. https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/xmr-zcash-and-other-private-coins-are-getting-delisted-from-binance-5484277
If you own any privacy coins on that exchange, the deadline is February 20.
We are slowly getting cornered.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
This change has caused some issues, such as identifying and reporting phishing mixer websites that use a portion of the real mixer domain name in their phishing domain name.
What's the point in knowing the exact phishing domain name? Just watch out, even if it's not on a list of phishing domains, it can still be a new one. Users now have to rely on other sources than Bitcointalk to find the real sites.As a rule of thumb: if you can post the mixer's URL, chances are it's a phishing site. But being word filtered still doesn't guarantee the site is real.
For example, they can find my thread and learn that a specific website domain is a scam and a phishing website. By conducting research, they can avoid falling victim to a specific phishing domain, which they might have wanted to use.
For a skilled scammer, creating a fake site is just a few hours of work, with $20 for a domain and hosting, the phishing site is online very quickly. I don't know how it is possible to collect information about all such sites, I guess we don't even know about half of them. What if there is a new page that is not yet on the blacklist?
As far as I know, there are currently around 15 "legitimate" mixers (maybe some more that I haven't heard of yet), while at the same time, I saw lists of phishing mixer sites with over 100 domains. Isn't it easier to remember those 15 pages or at least a couple of listing pages that only collect data from legal mixer services?
The most important thing should be that people are educated enough to recognize whether the site is original or fake.
Binance is a Centralized Exchange Platform which is fully equipped with KYC so non KYC projects might not be a favorable to it operation because it would like to ask for KYC whenever customers and client register nto their services which will also against the policy of the non KYC projects therefore they cannot work together.
That is not what the problem is for these centralized exchanges, of course before trading in any centralized exchange, you have to pass KYC on the platform, the reason many of these centralized exchanges are delisting privacy coins is that they cannot trace/track the transactions, so they cannot get information about it and report to the government or chain analysis companies if they need information about such transactions.
Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.
Just? AFAIK, Binance Australia has had already delisted them a year ago, and I wouldn't be surprised to know if any subsidiaries have delisted them earlier either.
So the bottom line is, this is just some exchange's policy, but since it's not a government's policy, I see no reason to ban discussion of privacy coins (to say nothing about posting links to them).
While I understand that mixers are being banned on the forum, I don't believe it was a good idea to change the names of all the former legitimate mixers to "[banned mixer]".
The thing is, you cannot post URL's of mixers in the forum, it will be automatically wordfiltered if you try to post it, but you can write the name of mixers, without posting a link that takes users to their websites. If you want to "report" or "identify" any mixer, just write the names of the mixer, without their URL's.However, the exact phishing domain is censored with "[banned mixer]", which I don't think is a good idea in this case.
This change has caused some issues, such as identifying and reporting phishing mixer websites that use a portion of the real mixer domain name in their phishing domain name.
What's the point in knowing the exact phishing domain name? Just watch out, even if it's not on a list of phishing domains, it can still be a new one. Users now have to rely on other sources than Bitcointalk to find the real sites.As a rule of thumb: if you can post the mixer's URL, chances are it's a phishing site. But being word filtered still doesn't guarantee the site is real.
For example, they can find my thread and learn that a specific website domain is a scam and a phishing website. By conducting research, they can avoid falling victim to a specific phishing domain, which they might have wanted to use.
Binance just announced they are delisting privacy coins included but not limited to, XMR and Zcash.
Just? AFAIK, Binance Australia has had already delisted them a year ago, and I wouldn't be surprised to know if any subsidiaries have delisted them earlier either.
So the bottom line is, this is just some exchange's policy, but since it's not a government's policy, I see no reason to ban discussion of privacy coins (to say nothing about posting links to them).
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them? Now, that would be the end of the forum because that would mean banning legit crypto projects, it ain't the same as banning mixers.
Exchanges can't do their AML checks on privacy coins, Bitcointalk doesn't have to do AML checks.I don't think it's the reason. Unlike Monero, most privacy coin doesn't make privacy feature mandatory. I recall Zcash shielded/private transaction only have ~14% dominance among all Zcash transactions.
The question is, will theymos ban privacy coins too if the regulatories take action against them?
If we ever reach the point where it is forbidden to talk about privacy coins, then it would really be time to bring out the pitchforks. I think in the US that would count as violation of the First Amendment. Forbidding direction to potentially darknet sites is reasonable, given that we can still talk about it (just not direct).In addition, if regulations become so strict, then it does not make sense to restrict freedom of speech in this place. If you want to illegalize porn, you will not ask from a porn forum to stop talking about it.
But this forum considered as private platform (not owned by government), so i'm not sure first amendment apply here considering this past ruling https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18682099/supreme-court-ruling-first-amendment-social-media-public-forum.
This change has caused some issues, such as identifying and reporting phishing mixer websites that use a portion of the real mixer domain name in their phishing domain name.
What's the point in knowing the exact phishing domain name? Just watch out, even if it's not on a list of phishing domains, it can still be a new one. Users now have to rely on other sources than Bitcointalk to find the real sites.As a rule of thumb: if you can post the mixer's URL, chances are it's a phishing site. But being word filtered still doesn't guarantee the site is real.
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