Topic: Mixing coins through exchanges - page 4. (Read 1135 times)

Your initial warning was that Whirlpool coinjoins create toxic coins, whereas it's the individual themselves that consciously does it:

Most people, seeing such prospects, will simply spit on all these alternatives and calmly pay using the usual payment methods, using a bank card.

Thank you for confirming my initial warning that toxic coins are created by using Whirlpool with Sparrow.

I continue to quote the post where I traced the Whirlpool transaction you provided because people need to be aware of the transaction links created by Whirlpool coinjoins that can be avoided by using WabiSabi coinjoins.

I have used Whirlpool with Sparrow, and I have never had my toxic coins consolidated with my coinjoined.

The adoption we deserve. I have bitcoins, but they don't accept them from me, because these bitcoins do not pass some kind of fucking verification from a third party. All my crypto life I "dreamed" of such crypto freedom.

Here's an analogy:

I am a merchant. You want to buy some things from me. You try to pay with cash. I say "I cannot see the full history of this cash, so I refuse your money". So instead, you tap your debit card. I say "I cannot accept this money without knowing the full history of it". I demand access to your bank account so I can see where all your money comes from. You leave and come back with your bank statements, but I don't like what I see, so I refuse payment. You then try to pay with PayPal. I demand access to your PayPal account so I can see where all your money comes from. You unlock your PayPal account on your phone and hand it over for me to look at. This PayPal money looks OK to me, so I accept it. You then leave the shop and start telling all your friends "Make sure when you shop there you have all your bank statements with you so the merchant can look at them, and make sure none of your money comes from anywhere except your employer, since they can't trace those funds." Your friends all look at you like you are crazy, and then simply choose to shop with the merchant next door who doesn't do any of this nonsense.

Whenever this situation comes up, with the discussion of centralized exchanges and privacy, it always seems that the default position is "Sacrifice all your privacy and let people spy on you so that you can use a centralized exchange". In any other financial situation that would be seen as utterly crazy, as I've just shown above, but for some reason with bitcoin people just accept this nonsense? The problem here is not mixers, or coinjoins, or Monero, or any other privacy technique - the problem here is centralized exchanges. If you don't want a centralized exchange to seize your coins, then don't use a centralized exchange. There are plenty of decentralized exchanges to choose from.

The logical position when faced with entities which are stealing coins is not "I should bend over backwards and sacrifice everything to hopefully mean they don't steal my coins!", but rather to simply not use the entity which is stealing coins.

You're continuing to quote the post where an individual consciously decided to consolidate Whirlpool coinjoin input with toxic change.

There are a lot of exchanges that ask for withdrawals of less than 20,000 Satoshi. In addition, it is strange for me that you pay attention to 20,000 satoshi when the same mixtum asks for 4% -5% + 0.0007 BTC.

The adoption we deserve. I have bitcoins, but they don't accept them from me, because these bitcoins do not pass some kind of fucking verification from a third party. All my life I dreamed of such crypto freedom.

You're continuing to quote the post where an individual consciously decided to consolidate Whirlpool coinjoin input with toxic change. I have used Whirlpool with Sparrow, and I have never had my toxic coins consolidated with my coinjoined.

Firstly, if someone is not very afraid for their privacy, using an exchange as a mixer is corny cheaper, easier and faster for an ordinary crypto user.

Secondly, exchanges help clean up bitcoins for AML.

In this case, the exchange comes to the rescue, which bleaches bitcoins after the mixer.

However, it appears that you hold a stance against incorporating exchanges into the mixing process started by individual saying exchanges are not mixers

What does the fact that I'm wearing a signature with MixTum has to do with me recommending people to not use exchanges as mixers as they aren't designed for that?

I continue to quote the post where I traced the Whirlpool transaction you provided because people need to be aware of the transaction links created by Whirlpool coinjoins that can be avoided by using WabiSabi coinjoins.

Nice response from guy who proudly wears the signature relevant to mixer which uses exchanges to shuffle customer's coins

If you could read Russian I would refer you to the real life case when user  used exchange to clear his coins he got from dedicated mixer.

The answer is as simple as "because it isn't designed to do it". Exchanges share tons of stuff, which user owns which addresses, trading volumes, etc., with governments and chain analysis companies. As I've already shared, there's even a site[1] which takes as input an address and returns you to which exchange it belongs. It's also more expensive.
[1] https://www.walletexplorer.com/

If i deposit from my wallet BTC to the exchange and then withdraw them to another btc address, will my coins be tracked?

I also don't know why you continue to quote that post of yours when I've already pointed out several times that it fails to deanonymize a single output: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/--5286821.

Please try to confine your Wasabi spam to the appropriate thread.

Why are you still trying to spread this lie after you already found out that the "wasabistats" Twitter account is flagging remixes as false positive merges?  This was already decisively proven to be a hit job account: https://twitter.com/Kruwed/status/1642612625883164672

It depends what you're hiding from: are you afraid they're going to rob you? Do they ask for money? Do they even know your current Bitcoin addresses?

If they know your addresses, sending your Bitcoin to an exchange is the perfect way to get plausible deniability of owning Bitcoin: "No, you can hit me all you want, but I sold my Bitcoins last month". If you withdraw them again, they won't know your new address. If this is your concern, it sounds like you need to move and few new friends.
If you use Wasabi, they won't know which Bitcoin address is yours anymore, but they'll know you still own the coins.

That's why it's called "toxic", so you avoid consolidating it with the coinjoined inputs. In fact, in Sparrow, it's pretty much impossible from the GUI to create a transaction spending both the toxic change and the coinjoined inputs.

Okay, here's all the payments that can be tracked from the two new participants of the Whirlpool coinjoin transaction:

Entrant 1: bc1q03c0443ausjjdxl2h6ud5m8c0dux0zyg3dqdj7 created 0.00170417 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1q3fduld0l3r8nclyt5p3r7ak675tekurstn55tl.  Since this UTXO is not private, the sats were marked as unspendable and have not been recovered by the wallet owner  

Entrant 2: bc1qzc8zku26ej337huw5dlt390cy2r9kgnq7dhtys created 0.00191247 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1qjlltxr443uy236wl4xhpxlr6dgsu0zltlv3m44. This UTXO was used in a second tx0 transaction, creating a huge trail of transactions that could be traced to each other  

The 2nd tx0 transaction created 0.00076348 BTC unmixed change which was sent to bc1qehd7gy8rza9mnzm9wnfjhgw82rp47wmqt7vpgy

Since this unmixed change is below the .001 pool minimum, it was consolidated in a 3rd tx0 with 3 other addresses owned by the same wallet:
31x8GPqrhzdaxiBJa9N5UisuoxbX1rAnHa
16Gw5WKjbxZmg1zhZQs19Sf61fbV2xGujx
3LZtsJfUjiV5EZkkG1fwGEpTe2QEa7CNeY

The 3rd tx0 transaction created .00200317 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1q2p7gdtyahct8rdjs2khwf0sffl64qe896ya2y5
This was spent in a 0.00190000 payment to 3B8cRYc3W5jHeS3pkepwDePUmePBoEwyp1 (a reused address)

That payment left .00008553 in change that was tracked to 3Dh7R7xoKMVfLCcAtVDyhJ66se82twyZSn and consolidated with two other inputs in a 4th tx0 transaction:
bc1qeuh6sds8exm54yscrupdk03jxphw8qwzdtxgde
3ByChGBFshzGUE5oip8YYVEZDaCP2bcBmZ

This 4th tx0 created .00533406 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1qzh699s75smwukg9jcanwnlkmkn38r79ataagd9 which was consolidated with 3 more addresses into a 5th tx0:
3F2qiWQJKQjF7XFjEo8FUYP3AU5AC6RqX8
3HAYYVKUpYbr2ARMdZJr9yVu8xi8UcxtPz
3GQtwwRK31wwCc22q6WS5sCgixUHsG5KaT

The 5th tx0 created 0.00058494 BTC in unmixed change that was sent to bc1qvh2zjcwwkj9y70xulla2semvlav3lty0p3l3w3
This was spent in a .00047290 payment to bc1qvzg8jq6wqtr5navn4e3ps4qrkk9r6n4h98gjck

That payment left .00008411 in change that was tracked to bc1qg6j0f0wfhpktt2l8uzdn48ct3um2xyur40eyzd and consolidated with another input into a 6th tx0 transaction:
31iZLXWfoywhuMZTPGxTkpzphzh2NXshpP

The 6th tx0 created .00753775 in unmixed change that was tracked to bc1qgfll2apc27yct6h2c8r8wq4kqhxjsfrudhhn5q
This was spent in a .00737000 payment to bc1q5emzer2t0sq5dez0zsrqgh6scvwn0n24xsladp (a reused address)

This payment left 0.00010896 BTC in change which has not been spent yet, but the payment only took place 11 days ago, so I assume it will eventually be spent, allowing the Whirlpool user to be tracked even further.

I would warn users on using Wasabi, as it's caught into being flawed software: https://twitter.com/wasabistats

I would warn users again using Whirlpool since it creates "toxic change" that can be used for tracking future transactions and reveals common input ownership

However, these tracing tactics of common ownership and change outputs are solved by WabiSabi coinjoins.  Wasabi Wallet, Trezor, and BTCPay Server all support WabiSabi coinjoins.

If the given exchange does not require the KYC procedure to go through out, why not.

Will the Wasabi work well if there is no concern about the agencies doing the chain analysis, as the motive is only to hide from family / friends?

That's not mixing. Sending TC wallet from one wallet to another and then from that wallet to another and then finally to the destination wallet. These transactions can be easily tracked even by a newbie like me. A simple understating and usage of explorers can get you track.

It is possible to mix coins through exchange ?

/?__cf_chl_tk=_F56mok19pqON4zgspgvxyb5kHOkZMkWvYP4DPr1nrc-1693700957-0-gaNycGzNCbs]

The hardware wallet that I know that supports coinjoin is Wasabi. If you want to avoid chain analyses not to spy on your transaction, it is better not to use Wasabi coinjoin. He can use Whirlpool on Sparrow or Samourai wallet instead if he does not want to use a mixer.

So, if custody is an issue, I'd recommend to using Whirlpool via Sparrow. There's a great guide: https://sparrowwallet.com/docs/mixing-whirlpool.html

Okay, here's all the payments that can be tracked from the two new participants of the Whirlpool coinjoin transaction:

Entrant 1: bc1q03c0443ausjjdxl2h6ud5m8c0dux0zyg3dqdj7 created 0.00170417 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1q3fduld0l3r8nclyt5p3r7ak675tekurstn55tl.  Since this UTXO is not private, the sats were marked as unspendable and have not been recovered by the wallet owner  

Entrant 2: bc1qzc8zku26ej337huw5dlt390cy2r9kgnq7dhtys created 0.00191247 BTC in unmixed change sent to bc1qjlltxr443uy236wl4xhpxlr6dgsu0zltlv3m44. This UTXO was used in a second tx0 transaction, creating a huge trail of transactions that could be traced to each other  

The 2nd tx0 transaction created 0.00076348 BTC unmixed change which was sent to bc1qehd7gy8rza9mnzm9wnfjhgw82rp47wmqt7vpgy

Since this unmixed change is below the .001 pool minimum, it was consolidated in a 3rd tx0 with 3 other addresses owned by the same wallet:
31x8GPqrhzdaxiBJa9N5UisuoxbX1rAnHa
16Gw5WKjbxZmg1zhZQs19Sf61fbV2xGujx
3LZtsJfUjiV5EZkkG1fwGEpTe2QEa7CNeY

The 3rd tx0 transaction created .00200317 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1q2p7gdtyahct8rdjs2khwf0sffl64qe896ya2y5
This was spent in a 0.00190000 payment to 3B8cRYc3W5jHeS3pkepwDePUmePBoEwyp1 (a reused address)

That payment left .00008553 in change that was tracked to 3Dh7R7xoKMVfLCcAtVDyhJ66se82twyZSn and consolidated with two other inputs in a 4th tx0 transaction:
bc1qeuh6sds8exm54yscrupdk03jxphw8qwzdtxgde
3ByChGBFshzGUE5oip8YYVEZDaCP2bcBmZ

This 4th tx0 created .00533406 in unmixed change which was sent to bc1qzh699s75smwukg9jcanwnlkmkn38r79ataagd9 which was consolidated with 3 more addresses into a 5th tx0:
3F2qiWQJKQjF7XFjEo8FUYP3AU5AC6RqX8
3HAYYVKUpYbr2ARMdZJr9yVu8xi8UcxtPz
3GQtwwRK31wwCc22q6WS5sCgixUHsG5KaT

The 5th tx0 created 0.00058494 BTC in unmixed change that was sent to bc1qvh2zjcwwkj9y70xulla2semvlav3lty0p3l3w3
This was spent in a .00047290 payment to bc1qvzg8jq6wqtr5navn4e3ps4qrkk9r6n4h98gjck

That payment left .00008411 in change that was tracked to bc1qg6j0f0wfhpktt2l8uzdn48ct3um2xyur40eyzd and consolidated with another input into a 6th tx0 transaction:
31iZLXWfoywhuMZTPGxTkpzphzh2NXshpP

The 6th tx0 created .00753775 in unmixed change that was tracked to bc1qgfll2apc27yct6h2c8r8wq4kqhxjsfrudhhn5q
This was spent in a .00737000 payment to bc1q5emzer2t0sq5dez0zsrqgh6scvwn0n24xsladp (a reused address)

This payment left 0.00010896 BTC in change which has not been spent yet, but the payment only took place 11 days ago, so I assume it will eventually be spent, allowing the Whirlpool user to be tracked even further.

Will the Wasabi work well if there is no concern about the agencies doing the chain analysis, as the motive is only to hide from family / friends?