MoneyPot.com :: The bitcoin gambling wallet - page 45.

RHavar

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:25:37 PM

QuantumDice9 said he earned 0.5BTC to 0.6BTC from the app.

This is the info from https://www.moneypot.com/apps/85-qdicenet-quantum-dice

Quote

Bets   174,858
Wagered   140,458,391 bits
Bets Profit   582,925.75 bits (0.42%)
Expected Profit   1,030,136.48 bits (0.73%)

Does the bet profit show what the investor's owned (after deducting commission) or total profit?

Does the figure include Moneypot commisssion too?

Weird..

I'll add a tool-tip to clarify that. "Bets Profit" is actually just -(Players Profit). I tried to put a more positive spin on "Players have lost 0.58 BTC playing here!"

There's no real relationship between "Bets Profit" and the actual amount of commissions an app has made.

arallmuus

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:25:37 PM

QuantumDice9 said he earned 0.5BTC to 0.6BTC from the app.

Well he didnt state that he earned 0.5 - 0.6 BTC from the app but he stated profit but not sure if it is the site's profit or the commission

Quote from: QuantumDice9 on August 09, 2015, 03:38:03 AM

0.5 - 0.6 BTC profit have been made

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:25:37 PM

Does the bet profit show what the investor's owned (after deducting commission) or total profit? Does the figure include Moneypot commisssion too?

The site's profit is the number that shows the how many BTC that the house has earned aka how many BTC that people has lost there not the commission. AFAIK the commission that the apps owner get isnt disclosed and the only way to know it would be to ask him to clarify what he mean by "profit"

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:27:48 PM

Both bolded are contradictory.

Not contradictive if we are on the same pages as what do you mean as "risk-free profit" because it seems we are not on the same page

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:27:48 PM

Rephrasing it,
If a player won 1 BTC, will Moneypot lose some commission or still make some commission? The app does. I don't know whether the Moneypot does.

According to the FAQ , moneypot takes 50 % share of the profit that apps makes so if apps makes profit then moneypot get it too

. Moneypot is not the investor, investor in this case is each individual btw just incase we are not on the same page .

If a player won 1 BTC then moneypot will get commission as well because the house get commission . At the worst case scenario, moneypot / apps will not get any but they dont lose any BTC so that is a risk free imo

Sorry for typo, Im playing poker atm lol

RHavar

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:15:20 PM

IMO, FAQ is too vague.

I can see this now. I'll work on a revamp of the FAQ.

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:27:48 PM

Rephrasing it,
If a player won 1 BTC, will Moneypot lose some commission or still make some commission? The app does. I don't know whether the Moneypot does.

The app (and MoneyPot) makes exactly the same commissions regardless of the bet outcome, they both have risk-free earnings

ndnh

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Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 01:21:36 PM

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:15:20 PM

So, Moneypot's commission is not risk free Huh

Im not literally understand what do you mean by risk free but for me it is a risk free profit because the result of the bet doesnt matter . All that matters would be the wagered amount, assuming that it is a small wager than apps will get a commission from it and moneypot will take 50 % share from it but if it posing a risk to the investor which is at the max profit then apps wont get any commission and moneypot will not get any as well.

Clearly this is risk free because moneypot and apps are not risking anything , bankroll is funded by investor and no matter if someone win a huge one then the one that will pay for it will be the investor

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:15:20 PM

Only on profits or both on profits and losses?

Both

Both bolded are contradictory.

Rephrasing it,
If a player won 1 BTC, will Moneypot lose some commission or still make some commission? The app does. I don't know whether the Moneypot does.

ndnh

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QuantumDice9 said he earned 0.5BTC to 0.6BTC from the app.

This is the info from https://www.moneypot.com/apps/85-qdicenet-quantum-dice

Quote

Bets   174,858
Wagered   140,458,391 bits
Bets Profit   582,925.75 bits (0.42%)
Expected Profit   1,030,136.48 bits (0.73%)

Does the bet profit show what the investor's owned (after deducting commission) or total profit?

Does the figure include Moneypot commisssion too?

Weird..

arallmuus

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:15:20 PM

So, Moneypot's commission is not risk free Huh

Im not literally understand what do you mean by risk free but for me it is a risk free profit because the result of the bet doesnt matter . All that matters would be the wagered amount, assuming that it is a small wager than apps will get a commission from it and moneypot will take 50 % share from it but if it posing a risk to the investor which is at the max profit then apps wont get any commission and moneypot will not get any as well.

Clearly this is risk free because moneypot and apps are not risking anything , bankroll is funded by investor and no matter if someone win a huge one then the one that will pay for it will be the investor

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:15:20 PM

Only on profits or both on profits and losses?

Both

ndnh

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Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 01:11:44 PM

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:05:51 PM

Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 01:02:39 PM

Both of that bet literally gives around 50 % of the edge to the apps owner . The first example got an edge of 0.8 % instead of 1 % and I just did the math that it gave around 50 % of the edge to apps owner ( more or less )

The investor gets all of it minus the comission for the apps and moneypot which is around 50 % of the edge to the investor and another 50 % to moneypot . Profit or lose doesnt affect the comission , assuming someone bet at 0.001 BTC at 2x multiplier and win it the investor will pay 0.001 + commission but if is a lost then the investor will get 0.001 BTC - commission back

Edited some again

Not almost but exactly everything assuming 10 BTC is the max profit which is not the case right now because of the more risk investor bear then the apps wont get any commission

Edited it back. I was right the first time.

Read what you wrote (in bold). All the edge is taken (commission = edge), the EV is 0, so for small bets investor gets nothing. Tongue

Hmm sorry I was wrong on this, It should be that moneypot takes 50 % of that is paid to the apps . I must have missunderstood it . will edit my post

Quote

we do take a 50% share of all profit you make.

References : https://www.moneypot.com/faq#how-much-do-you-charge-

Edit : edited mine and I abit typo there it should be around 50 % to the apps not investor Cheesy

sorry for that

So, Moneypot's commission is not risk free Huh

A theoretical 50% would mean a risk-free one, as you mentioned first. But the other one would mean a subject to risk kind of commission. Only on profits or both on profits and losses?

IMO, FAQ is too vague.

arallmuus

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 01:05:51 PM

Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 01:02:39 PM

Both of that bet literally gives around 50 % of the edge to the apps owner . The first example got an edge of 0.8 % instead of 1 % and I just did the math that it gave around 50 % of the edge to apps owner ( more or less )

The investor gets all of it minus the comission for the apps and moneypot which is around 50 % of the edge to the investor and another 50 % to moneypot . Profit or lose doesnt affect the comission , assuming someone bet at 0.001 BTC at 2x multiplier and win it the investor will pay 0.001 + commission but if is a lost then the investor will get 0.001 BTC - commission back

Edited some again

Not almost but exactly everything assuming 10 BTC is the max profit which is not the case right now because of the more risk investor bear then the apps wont get any commission

Edited it back. I was right the first time.

Read what you wrote (in bold). All the edge is taken (commission = edge), the EV is 0, so for small bets investor gets nothing. Tongue

Hmm sorry I was wrong on this, It should be that moneypot takes 50 % of that is paid to the apps . I must have missunderstood it . will edit my post

Quote

we do take a 50% share of all profit you make.

References : https://www.moneypot.com/faq#how-much-do-you-charge-

Edit : edited mine and I abit typo there it should be around 50 % to the apps not investor Cheesy

sorry for that

ndnh

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Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 01:02:39 PM

Both of that bet literally gives around 50 % of the edge to the apps owner . The first example got an edge of 0.8 % instead of 1 % and I just did the math that it gave around 50 % of the edge to apps owner ( more or less )

The investor gets all of it minus the comission for the apps and moneypot which is around 50 % of the edge to the investor and another 50 % to moneypot . Profit or lose doesnt affect the comission , assuming someone bet at 0.001 BTC at 2x multiplier and win it the investor will pay 0.001 + commission but if is a lost then the investor will get 0.001 BTC - commission back

Edited some again

Not almost but exactly everything assuming 10 BTC is the max profit which is not the case right now because of the more risk investor bear then the apps wont get any commission

Edited it back. I was right the first time.

Read what you wrote (in bold). All the edge is taken (commission (risk-free) = edge), the EV is 0, so for small bets investor gets nothing. Tongue

arallmuus

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 12:41:40 PM

Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 12:20:06 PM

-snip-

Well, the commission is not dependent on win or lose as I understand.

https://www.moneypot.com/bets/61529779

Profit to player: +34,560.40 bits
Advanced
Investor Profit: -34832.7921714676 bits
App Dev Profit: 163.435302880536 bits

For this kind of bets: https://www.moneypot.com/bets/61529782 is the one in which app takes 50% of edge.

Both of that bet literally gives around 50 % of the edge to the apps owner . The first example got an edge of 0.8 % instead of 1 % and I just did the math that it gave around 50 % of the edge to apps owner ( more or less )

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 12:08:51 PM

for a 10000*0.001BTC bets, the investor gets ~~almost nothing~~ theoretically around 50% (considering edge and commission)?
(that is profit minus commission or lose minus commission)

The investor gets all of it minus the comission for the apps and moneypot which is around 50 % of the edge to the ~~investor~~ apps and ~~another 50 % to moneypot~~ moneypot takes 50 % commission from it . Profit or lose doesnt affect the comission , assuming someone bet at 0.001 BTC at 2x multiplier and win it the investor will pay 0.001 + commission but if is a lost then the investor will get 0.001 BTC - commission back

Edited some again

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 12:08:51 PM

Okay. So for a 10BTC bet, the investor gets ~~almost~~ everything

Not almost but exactly everything assuming 10 BTC is the max profit which is not the case right now because of the more risk investor bear then the apps wont get any commission

ndnh

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Quote from: arallmuus on August 09, 2015, 12:20:06 PM

Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 12:08:51 PM

Okay. So for a 10BTC bet, the investor gets almost everything and for a 10000*0.001BTC bets, the investor gets almost nothing.

There is something wrong with this. At a higher risk assuming that a whale decided to bet at the max profit allowed at a site which is currently 3.03 BTC then the investor will get everything if the bet is lost . Everything is translated into a whole 3.03 BTC for the investor's profit without having to pay commission to the apps or moneypot

At the smaller bet like 0.001 BTC , the investor will not get the whole 0.001 BTC assuming that the bet is lost because investor will need to pay the apps and moneypot for the bet so the profit will be 0.001 BTC - the commission for apps and moneypot

tl;dr : each bet lost will go to investor just that some will have lower or none commission depending on what the investor are risking so it is not almost nothing

P.S : the 3.03 BTC is assumed from the site uses the standard edge of 1 %

Well, the commission is not dependent on win or lose as I understand.

https://www.moneypot.com/bets/61529779

Profit to player: +34,560.40 bits
Advanced
Investor Profit: -34832.7921714676 bits
App Dev Profit: 163.435302880536 bits

For this kind of bets: https://www.moneypot.com/bets/61529782 is the one in which app takes 50% of edge.

Edited the quoted post.

Re-edited. EV is 0 for small bets. It is plain math. Could be wrong, but don't confuse me, lol. Tongue

arallmuus

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 12:08:51 PM

Okay. So for a 10BTC bet, the investor gets almost everything and for a 10000*0.001BTC bets, the investor gets almost nothing.

There is something wrong with this. At a higher risk assuming that a whale decided to bet at the max profit allowed at a site which is currently 3.03 BTC then the investor will get everything if the bet is lost . Everything is translated into a whole 3.03 BTC for the investor's profit without having to pay commission to the apps or moneypot

At the smaller bet like 0.001 BTC , the investor will not get the whole 0.001 BTC assuming that the bet is lost because investor will need to pay the apps and moneypot for the bet so the profit will be 0.001 BTC - the commission for apps and moneypot

tl;dr : each bet lost will go to investor just that some will have lower or none commission depending on what the investor are risking so it is not almost nothing

P.S : the 3.03 BTC is assumed from the site uses the standard edge of 1 %

ndnh

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Quote from: RHavar on August 09, 2015, 09:23:30 AM

Yeah, looks like you guys got it =)

On one end of the extreme, if the bet poses no risk to investors the app will get 50% of the house edge. On the other extreme if the bet poses a maximum, fully-kelly risk to investors (e.g. a binary bet risking N% of the bankroll with an N% house edge) the app will get 0% of the house edge (the bet unmodified goes to investors).

The vast majority of the bets are for tiny amounts, so they tend to look like the app makes "50% of the house edge" but it's not exactly the case. Most devs start to notice this when larger, riskier bets come in

E.g. If you look at this bet: https://www.moneypot.com/bets/61529776 it was placed when the bankroll was a little under 300 BTC. The bet was trying to win ~1.5 BTC with a 1% house edge (a bit over a half-kelly). And thus the app made a commission of ~63000 bits (Which it would've made regardless of win or lose). As the bet was of ~30 BTC this translates to about 0.21% commission. MoneyPot itself made another 0.21% and then from there, the investors took it.

Thanks for the explanation and clarifying, lol.

Okay. So for a 10BTC bet, the investor gets almost everything and for a 10000*0.001BTC bets, the investor gets ~~almost nothing~~ theoretically around 50% (considering edge and commission)?
(that is profit minus commission or lose minus commission) almost nothing, lol.

Altcoin4life

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Added another btc to my investment future lookin brighter by the week here.

RHavar

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Yeah, looks like you guys got it =)

On one end of the extreme, if the bet poses no risk to investors the app will get 50% of the house edge. On the other extreme if the bet poses a maximum, fully-kelly risk to investors (e.g. a binary bet risking N% of the bankroll with an N% house edge) the app will get 0% of the house edge (the bet unmodified goes to investors).

The vast majority of the bets are for tiny amounts, so they tend to look like the app makes "50% of the house edge" but it's not exactly the case. Most devs start to notice this when larger, riskier bets come in

E.g. If you look at this bet: https://www.moneypot.com/bets/61529776 it was placed when the bankroll was a little under 300 BTC. The bet was trying to win ~1.5 BTC with a 1% house edge (a bit over a half-kelly). And thus the app made a commission of ~63000 bits (Which it would've made regardless of win or lose). As the bet was of ~30 BTC this translates to about 0.21% commission. MoneyPot itself made another 0.21% and then from there, the investors took it.

ndnh

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Quote from: NLNico on August 09, 2015, 08:51:21 AM

Actually I think most will suprised how little house edge the investors get on "smaller" bets of like below 0.1 btc (and obv the app+MP relatively much.) On small bets the app gets pretty close to half the edge actually.

On the other hand, on max profit bets the app+MP gets nothing.

To be honest, I am fairly surprised. A lot of things are different that I initially thought lol.

Yeah, it is not unfair tho.

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DiceSites.com owner

Actually I think most will suprised how little house edge the investors get on "smaller" bets of like below 0.1 btc (and obv the app+MP relatively much.) On small bets the app gets pretty close to half the edge actually.

On the other hand, on max profit bets the app+MP gets nothing.

arallmuus

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Quote from: ndnh on August 09, 2015, 08:03:11 AM

Quote from: QuantumDice9 on August 09, 2015, 03:38:03 AM

Owner gets paid a certain commission for bringing gamblers to the table(approximately half the house edge x wager size for each bet regardless of outcome). This is a risk free profit.

Is this info correct?

It kind of shouldn't be from my understanding of Moneypot.

Not correct, it may seem like it but it is not like this. From my understanding each time someone wager in a site, moneypot will inverse a bet for investor instead which use kelly criterion and then pay the apps wether if the investor win or lose and Moneypot take 50 % of what is paid to the apps owner therefore it seems like it is half of the edge but the fact is that it is not because it depends on the risk investor take as well and if someone attempted to bet at 2BTC with 1.01 chance to win the investor is taking lot of risk therefore what is paid to the apps is lower as well and not of what quantumdice claimed as half of the edge

P.S : this is what my understanding of moneypot is

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Quote from: QuantumDice9 on August 09, 2015, 03:38:03 AM

Owner gets paid a certain commission for bringing gamblers to the table(approximately half the house edge x wager size for each bet regardless of outcome). This is a risk free profit.

Is this info correct?

It kind of shouldn't be from my understanding of Moneypot.

arallmuus

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Quote from: birdcat90 on August 09, 2015, 02:53:20 AM

does all moneypot app share the faucet timer?

Yes they share the same timer which is good to prevent abuse

Quote from: birdcat90 on August 09, 2015, 02:53:20 AM

also betterbets now has improved,,more player playing there and it make more wager for the site..

Its about time isnt it, why keep playing elsewhere when you can play in a better one but the sad truth will be that some people keep holding on their favourite site despite that a new site has proven to be better by miles however this will soon change

Quote from: Pony789 on August 09, 2015, 02:54:25 AM

Even with that 30 btc loss and skyrocketing total wagered, the investor profit is still pretty much at the same level as 2 weeks ago...

Not exactly 30BTC loss as you can check his status (references below), clearly shown that he only lost a total of 4.9 BTC which means that he must have got few profits before losing that 30 BTC and also that since the bankroll is an equity for all the games, some other sites may have one or two winner that bust the house therefore it stays the same ( or atleast slighly increase but infact the investor profit is down by atleast 10 BTC since last week )

References : https://www.moneypot.com/users/helpmywallet

Topic: MoneyPot.com :: The bitcoin gambling wallet - page 45. (Read 77137 times)