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Topic: Monthly average USD/bitcoin price & trend - page 22. (Read 118254 times)

donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 14, 2013, 02:52:47 PM
This is absolutely a Trojan designed to sucker all you naive selfish people into mixing your capital with drug dealers, human traffickers, pedophiles, etc and to track you and label you as destroyers of the global economy.

This is so they can blame the socialism debt bubble on you.

Rothschild and Soros are some clever fucks. And you eat it right from their hand.

I think you suffer from overly negative worldview. If you only take into account the negative testimony of how fucked the USA is, how fucked EU is, how fucked China, Russia, Japan, India, Brazil, etc. are, and not any of the positive developments, you end up depressed and unable to work or enjoy life. As if it was Satan who created the world and decides what happens in people's lives (hint: it is God instead).

Rothschilds' control is not a static iron grip over all the countries in the world and every one of their elected governments. It fluctuates and they suffer setbacks in their pursuits as well as we do in ours. Where they have done well is general "education" which has made people in general quite crooked in basic understanding (the majority of people in Finland love big brother, otherwise they would not vote for it, so the politicians will make crooked decisions based on their crooked understanding, even when there is no direct command).

But they do not currently have the resources to globally effect "killing the 350,000 largest bitcoin holders or taxing them over 100% of their holdings which cleverly puts them in tax debt prison because the sums involved are so huge". That is so fantastic that I will rather help my friends to make millions, and put them in good use, and then wait for the blacklist to be issued.

If you refuse to buy bitcoins despite the fact that the FBI claims they are legal, just based on your theory that they are a trap and will be used to mark you for slaughter - my friend, then "they" have already overcome, making your life miserable and depriving from you the fruit of speculation. And if there is Cambodia style purge, you will not be spared anyway.

**

I actually think this is on topic. To make any use of the trend, it is highly important to know when it is expected to change. I still believe that simple exponential line is adequate to model the trend of the exchange rate, and that there will be a huge bubble in the end, followed by oscillating crash á la SlipperySlope. Smaller booms and retracements may be traded according to whether they are above or below trendline.

Currently we are slightly above the trendline.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
November 14, 2013, 01:52:40 PM
. . . it is interesting that the sigmoid logarithmic predictions have been frighteningly accurate so far despite being seen as insane to practically everyone outside the forum and half the people on it.

Back in 2011, there was great discussion in this forum about maximum bitcoin value. Once you wrap your mind around the notion that bitcoin could disrupt precious metals as a store of value, and disrupt fiat currency, i.e. M2 monetary base as a payment mechanism, then you begin to accept that $1,000,000 per bitcoin is a candidate ultimate value for the virtual crypocurrency.

But given a wildly high maximum price - such as $1,000,000 per bitcoin, then how do we get there? ... well by exponential growth. It was one thing to watch bitcoin go from $1 to $30 back in 2011 but quite another to watch it go from $65 to over $400 in the last few months. The larger absolute numbers, as well as the impact on our unrealized profit - are staggering.

newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
November 14, 2013, 01:50:31 PM
"UPDATE: dree's datapoints used, which will change the trendline slightly: y = 0,092x - 2,9124. R² = 0,91466. This is not yet updated in the charts, however (difference hardly noticeable). NOTE: x=1, when in Jan2009 (previously x=0)

Trendline target for November 2013: $328
Trendline target for December 2013: $404"

Since we're halfway through November, and way above $328, this means it is not advised to buy right now?
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 255
November 14, 2013, 01:34:18 PM
$2500 or $4000 or $6000. Does it really matter?

It matters to my tax and retirement planning.  And also just to satisfy my curiosity, since it is interesting that the sigmoid logarithmic predictions have been frighteningly accurate so far despite being seen as insane to practically everyone outside the forum and half the people on it.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
November 14, 2013, 01:04:23 PM
Hey SlipperySlope,
Great to see you back. Immediately again great analyses. Thanks so much for sharing again.

I have also sold too many coins and was taken by surprise with this new relaunch into new highs.

I thought your rational evaluation at the time indicating lower prices was sound.

What was wrong with the line you drew at the time you think?

Also, I agree we can expect an s-curve, but I don't see the first curve on your chart above. The period where growth is increasing year over year. What period do you think that was?

First, thanks for the welcome. I am drawn to this forum, like a moth to a lighted window, whenever there is a bitcoin bubble. I am through with trading and just buying. Plus I have an affection for Risto viewpoints.

Regarding the trendline connecting the bottoms of the previous two bubbles, I think now that 2012 was a period of consolidation, where the uncertainty of bitcoin held back speculation - that was released in January-April 2013. It now appears that 2012 was not the trend, rather it was below the trend.

In accordance with the conventional wisdom that bitcoin prices will be marked by a series of bubbles before settling down as a mature financial instrument, I believe that this bubble and future bubbles will have the form of damped oscillations rather than the classically symmetrical financial bubble pattern exhibited by the June 2011 peak.

Can you restate your issue about the S-curve? I plotted it log 10 so the exponential part is linear on the chart.

hero member
Activity: 665
Merit: 500
November 14, 2013, 12:42:14 PM
$2500 or $4000 or $6000. Does it really matter? Nothing else will give you those gains with such certainty.

So really this discussion is not about fulfilling some investment decision, rather is about counting our future money and salivating over it?

I guess the reason I react this way, is I originally followed Jason Hommel into silver and his calculations of how silver would go to astronomical prices. I never believed those ridiculous calculations, but I did waste some years of my life on technical analysis. With Bitcoin, there isn't even much risk of a sustained decline near-term. So you should be able to just forget about for a year or so, and go do something else more productive with your life.

So I guess I regret what I did with my life from 2006 to 2011 or so. What a waste of talent.

Taking some time away from watching the price might give some time to reflect on the big picture. When we keep ourselves busy with some compulsive activity, we tend to become consumed by it, e.g. my posting on this bitcointalk forum!

Very good post. I think a lot of  us need a kick in the but to stop waisting our precious time. Point taken.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
This bull will try to shake you off. Hold tight!
November 14, 2013, 11:38:20 AM
I revised my bitcoin logistic adoption price analysis charts to combine four possible scenarios on one chart ..



red - assume a $5,000,000 maximum bitcoin price when fully adopted by financial speculators
orange - $1,000,000
green - $100,000
blue - $40,000

I also re-fit each case to more accurately pass through the final price history data point. It is clear now that the exponential portion of the logistic curve, i.e. the straight line on the log chart, does not predict the maximum price. Here are the corresponding price targets summarized ...



The key result of this analysis is that we should not expect the current exponential growth of bitcoin prices to last more than 36-48 months - even under the most bullish imaginable scenario. Buy sooner rather than later is my obvious conclusion.

The shared spreadsheet containing commentary, calculations and charts can be viewed, or copy/edited, at ...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArD8rjI3DD1WdGhDN3FBWFptTlZTREN0cFkxZ3JHTnc

Hey SlipperySlope,

Great to see you back. Immediately again great analyses. Thanks so much for sharing again.


I have also sold too many coins and was taken by surprise with this new relaunch into new highs.

I thought your rational evaluation at the time indicating lower prices was sound.

What was wrong with the line you drew at the time you think?

Also, I agree we can expect an s-curve, but I don't see the first curve on your chart above. The period where growth is increasing year over year. What period do you think that was?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 14, 2013, 10:36:44 AM
$2500 or $4000 or $6000. Does it really matter? Nothing else will give you those gains with such certainty.

So really this discussion is not about fulfilling some investment decision, rather is about counting our future money and salivating over it?

I guess the reason I react this way, is I originally followed Jason Hommel into silver and his calculations of how silver would go to astronomical prices. I never believed those ridiculous calculations, but I did waste some years of my life on technical analysis. With Bitcoin, there isn't even much risk of a sustained decline near-term. So you should be able to just forget about for a year or so, and go do something else more productive with your life.

So I guess I regret what I did with my life from 2006 to 2011 or so. What a waste of talent.

Taking some time away from watching the price might give some time to reflect on the big picture. When we keep ourselves busy with some compulsive activity, we tend to become consumed by it, e.g. my posting on this bitcointalk forum!
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
November 14, 2013, 10:19:48 AM
Anyway, enough paranoia derailing a really cool thread.

I was curious the difference between SlipperySlope's charts which show around $6000 at the end of 2015 and this chart posted on another thread:

https://www.tradingview.com/v/fy8wpDSZ/

which shows around $2500 instead.  Both are compelling, but show a wide gap.  Any takers as to why the difference?

Personally, I tend to discount the $2500 since in 12 months we should be a little past $4000, so $6000 sounds more accurate given the history of bitcoin, and if anything we're at the part of the Sigmoid where it should speed up a little.

Still, it's hard to argue with this chart.  So what's wrong with it that I am missing?

To be precise, in a logistic function, i.e. sigmoid, the acceleration slows from the starting point to the mid point. In the historical price series, the slowing is not yet noticeable.

My chart employs a hand-fit logistic curve that passes though the beginning and ending points of the historical price series that was convenient for me to use. My analysis neglects, or rather smooths out, technically relevant highs and lows that characterize the tradingview chart. Also my price history is more recent.

The logistic analysis was mainly to figure out the circumstances that will end the exponential growth of bitcoin prices. I do not believe those results are any better than conventional technical analysis of where prices might be next year.

What is very interesting about the tradingview chart, and its "Mother of all triangles", is the technical prediction it makes about the current bubble. It looks like we are approaching the upper resistance line of the triangle at about $550, using MtGox prices.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 14, 2013, 10:01:49 AM
Please do return to the thread topic.

Yeah maybe I am entirely wrong. But even if there is only 1% chance I am correct (and I think the probability is much higher than that), is it rational to risk your freedom? Would you walk in front of 20 guys with 5 round pistols, with one bullet in one of the pistols and one guy will pull the trigger with the gun pointed at your head?

If we assume there is a 20% chance I am correct (Pareto principle), that is 1 guy with one 5 round pistol. I don't like those odds.

And it is not just our individual freedom at stake. Once the digital system is in place, that is essentially the foundation for 666.

Donating to charity doesn't erase a tax due to capital gain realized before the donation. Europeans apparently don't have to worry about capital gains, but I think rather they have an unknown tax regime, because the EU will "harmonize" with the USA and G20, because so many Europeans (and Asian crony taipans) are moving capital to the USA to buy real estate to hide it from EU taxation (and coming social backlash in China as their highly imbalanced economy implodes). I expect retroactive bullshit.

If I am correct, you've already fucked yourself by buying this thing. I suppose the best you could do would be to report your gains and pay tax when you exit, then anonymously enter another coin that would rise 100000X, so then you can afford to pay any retroactive tax increase or other bullshit the government might pull on you.

This hereby terminates the horror movie salesmanship. Back to Neverland programming.
full member
Activity: 233
Merit: 101
November 14, 2013, 09:47:38 AM

In conclusion, apologies for cluttering this thread and rambling on. I should now undertake the discipline to shut up, and code if I want to. Talking won't change anything. My marketing survey is complete.

You should be able to find all the talent and collaborators you need on the Alternate cryptocurrencies section of the forum. Metaphorically, you are pushing a boulder uphill here whereas over there your boulder rolls itself downhill. Best wishes.

That was definitely exciting and scary & I will certainly be following the development of the perfect dark coin - to rule all coins. Seriously.

Now back to our regularly scheduled fantasy programing.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 255
November 14, 2013, 09:37:03 AM
Anyway, enough paranoia derailing a really cool thread.

I was curious the difference between SlipperySlope's charts which show around $6000 at the end of 2015 and this chart posted on another thread:

https://www.tradingview.com/v/fy8wpDSZ/

which shows around $2500 instead.  Both are compelling, but show a wide gap.  Any takers as to why the difference?

Personally, I tend to discount the $2500 since in 12 months we should be a little past $4000, so $6000 sounds more accurate given the history of bitcoin, and if anything we're at the part of the Sigmoid where it should speed up a little.

Still, it's hard to argue with this chart.  So what's wrong with it that I am missing?
hero member
Activity: 665
Merit: 500
November 14, 2013, 09:25:18 AM
Anonymint, calm down. You may be right but you are to extreme. yes we will be taxed but no way are we going to be crucified for this. But again, start making that code for your coins instead of scaring us more. When you are done I want first dibs. Ehhhumm, I mean I don't want any (in case big brother is listening). Smiley

Also, why not become the Robin Hood of bitcoin. They won't have to hunt me down. My stash will willingly be distributed to the people who need them the most. True socialism here we come.

Edit: what if you are wrong AnonyMint? What if bitcoin isn't constructed by the elite? Or what if it is but they aren't planning to tax the holders to death? Or what if their plan fails? Are you willing to take the risk of not investing in an asset that has a huge potential because of your fear standing in the way?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 14, 2013, 09:11:13 AM
Well, just saw this http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

Seems like the elite forces are already scrambling to identify Bitcoin users. We are all doomed. Smiley

"Everything that can be done, will be done" -sirius.

Since bitcoin is designed to be non-anonymous, there will be such a database. Sirius has been working on an even greater database of the totality of everything you have publicly done. He realizes it can be used for nefarious purposes, but says that since the oppressors have access to the data anyway, the good guys should have it also.

Your anonymity declines over time, as if you've used a coin mixer and/or proxy, then your anonymity is (probabilistically) inversely proportional to the proportion of other Bitcoiners who have revealed their identity somehow.

So it can only get worse.

Also the NSA knows identities which those research analysts don't. So the good guys don't know as much as the NSA knows. Also we don't even know if NSA has cracked elliptic curve cryptography. The NSA had cracked most in the 1980s with differential analysis, and the public didn't know it.

Also there are so many potential pitfalls when using Tor, VPN, and/or coin mixer. There are so many complexities in the software stack and operational flow chart, thus too many opportunities for failure or attack.

Just assume you are not anonymous. That is safest.

Did you really think you could get rich simply for buying an asset that destroys the socialism? Only if the paradigm shift creates more prosperity for the masses will you be allowed to keep your gains. Bitcoin is not designed to do this. It is designed to give 1/2 of the coins to early adopters in the first 4 years (before the first halving of the coin reward).

Imagine the headlines. Bitcoin transferred half of the world's wealth to those who purchased or mined in the first 4 years. This is static and can never be undone, unless those wealthy spend their Bitcoins.

But wealthy don't spend. They invest only to increase their hoard, not disperse it.

This is absolutely a Trojan designed to sucker all you naive selfish people into mixing your capital with drug dealers, human traffickers, pedophiles, etc and to track you and label you as destroyers of the global economy.

This is so they can blame the socialism debt bubble on you.

Rothschild and Soros are some clever fucks. And you eat it right from their hand.
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 14, 2013, 08:52:38 AM
Well, just saw this http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

Seems like the elite forces are already scrambling to identify Bitcoin users. We are all doomed. Smiley

"Everything that can be done, will be done" -sirius.

Since bitcoin is designed to be non-anonymous, there will be such a database. Sirius has been working on an even greater database of the totality of everything you have publicly done. He realizes it can be used for nefarious purposes, but says that since the oppressors have access to the data anyway, the good guys should have it also.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 501
Stephen Reed
November 14, 2013, 08:23:29 AM
Am I advertising a potential altcoin which I haven't even started coding? Yes I guess I am. But it was more about wanting to do a market survey and see where the thinking is. And what I concluded is that there are sufficient people interested to get such an altcoin started, then that momentum will drive the resistors (e.g. SlipperySlope) in later.

. . .

In conclusion, apologies for cluttering this thread and rambling on. I should now undertake the discipline to shut up, and code if I want to. Talking won't change anything. My marketing survey is complete.

You should be able to find all the talent and collaborators you need on the Alternate cryptocurrencies section of the forum. Metaphorically, you are pushing a boulder uphill here whereas over there your boulder rolls itself downhill. Best wishes.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 14, 2013, 08:09:02 AM
And as a fellow coder I can assure you of this:  your communication skills are too poor for your code to make a difference.  The best code doesn't win.  The pretty good code with good speech around it wins.  But good luck anyway.

Just take one look at my marketing accomplishment with WordUp or CoolPage.com (million users in 2 years) and obviously I know how to alter my communication.

I was expressing frustration with the myopia here in these threads. And actually I performed a marketing coup already, because I got your attention.

The following are from the 1980s! Mostly all done by myself (some portions done by Mike Fulton) I wrote all the ad copy below. My conceptual design. I worked with the graphic artist. I did the layout. I wrote the program. I negotiated the contracts for worldwide distributors. I even took some of the tech support calls on the phone. I printed the labels that on the 3.5" floppy disks and managed the 3 guys in the shipping department of my small company.





hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 14, 2013, 07:54:33 AM
RAJSALLIN, you did an excellent summary of my views. Also there is the new selfish mining attack, which when combined with the withholding attack that miners can do on pools, probably (allowing the very small chance for myself to be wrong on the technical analysis) makes it impossible to stop a determined adversary from destroying the honest pools. I have detailed this in comments in debate with cunicula over at that hackingdistributed site. And I have proposed fixes for all these things, including your summary.

I sent the following message to SlipperySlope in private email when he declined to assist me on a mathematical model because he "puts his full faith in Bitcoin". I did get to see his photo so I have an estimate of his age now:

Quote
I hope you realize that Bitcoin stops providing sufficient funding to miners from coin rewards by 2033 (<1%) or 2040 (<0.2%) and that funding is expected to come from tx fees. However, due to the very easy transactions withholding attack, a cartel such as Amazon.com could offer the wonderful deal of 0% tx fees to people who send their transactions to Amazon's servers. Amazon could then refuse to send these to other miners and process them all on Amazon's servers when Amazon's server win the block solution. In this way and by also combining the recent selfish mining attack in clever ways as I have outlined, Amazon (or other cartel) will take over all mining. At that point, they can change the protocol if for example the government requires them to do so by law, converting it to a fiat.

There is absolutely nothing you et al will be able to do to stop it at that point, because Bitcoin will already be too popular.

You don't care that you are about to turn the world into the 666 outcome?

And you refuse to support an altcoin that could fix this?

You must be one of those selfish boomers who always think of themselves and never for the future of mankind.

I am X-gen. Any other X-gens here? It is up to us to save the world, the boomers don't have a clue, they caused this sovereign debt crisis. I don't mean that as a personal insult against any one, it is just a fact of the perspective that generation experienced given the environment they were nurtured up in (the golden age of the 1950s probably the richest period in modern western civilization, especially in the USA). As smart as rpietila is, our differences apparently stem from him being European (socialist mindset was ingrained there earlier) and myself being American, or perhaps generational (I forget his age...seems I remember he is younger than me even though I have all my hair, hehehe Tongue).

The notion that the core devs and/or the masses could recognize this problem and provide a fix at an opportune moment is in my opinion impossible. No one wants to change anything major in Bitcoin because it risks upsetting the apple cart, causing a fork, and otherwise interrupting the meteoric rise in the price. Everyone is focused on only one major goal, which is all about price and maintaining the uber critical consensus.

This was a very clever Trojan planted by the elite, because it has an economic reward which is irresistible. Only a very few people have the discipline to see past their own greed to the final outcome of this.

If I am wrong, then the core devs step up to the plate and fix this immediately. But can you get the Bitcoin community to accept even a small perpetual debasement? No. Too many are irrational, selfish goldbugs. I've already explained why in the threads RAJSALLIN has apparently read.

So I am saying I would love for core Bitcoin devs to fix the problem that I see, yet I don't think they will nor can.

RAJSALLIN, I hope you are reporting every Bitcoin spend as a capital gain (or are very confident in your ability to use a VPN with Tor which even I am not). Because my expectation is if you are a USA citizens (we must pay capital gains, apparently Europeans not) is the bankrupt socialism will ex post facto send you a bill for unpaid taxes, penalties, and interest. It is the penalties and interest that will take 300% of your net worth, thus causing you to go to prison because you are unable to pay the IRS even if you wanted to. Feinstein has already proposed legislation (in recent highway appropriations bill, may have passed already) that if you owe the IRS $50,000, they cancel your passport. As for Europeans, they think they are safe because (unlike us screwed up the ass Americans) they pay no income taxes if they reside outside the EU, except for perhaps a small net worth tax in some countries, and I believe they are not liable for the VAT if they transact outside the EU. A little bird in my intuition tells me that there is no way the Europeans are going to escape while the Americans are not. Europe is more bankrupt than the USA is. I don't know how they will do it, but EU is rapidly being federalized and soon Finland (rpietila's nationality) won't be setting the laws and instead the EU will be. France is already pressuring the EU to adopt all sorts of crazy taxing measures, even suggesting to tax the internet traffic coming in and out of the EU. And the implosion hasn't even occurred yet. We will see the true craziness once the masses are really suffering as the Greeks are now. If Finland was sovereign, I would say rpietila has nothing to worry about, but alas I think it is too late for Finland to keep its sovereignty. If I were rpietila, I would consider buying a second citizenship but then he has to be careful that such a backend country doesn't also try to tax him as the world goes into the shitter after 2016.

As for paranoia, the boomers think I am insane. Their whole life government and society has been good to them. They've always been on top. Why should they change now. They just can't fathom such a global collapse and total shift from big government to minanarchy. It isn't what I think or want which matters, it is the math of the debt. Government is peaking now, and the world will collapse into minimal government. This is undeniable if you study the debt-to-GDP levels, the "$quadrillion" of credit-swap derivatives, and the world history of how just structures resolve. My 67 year old mother told me it makes her heart race and blood pressure go up, so "please just don't tell me".

Am I paranoid about the tax outcome? I mean the typical thought that goes into the mind of people who think I am paranoid or insane is "if the governments do that, we are all doomed, thus they won't". Humans are herding creatures. They feel safer in numbers. Normally the lions only pick off the weak stragglers on the edge of the herd. But the killing fields of modern history come from technology. Government exists because it has a monopoly on force (this is the academic definition). Government now has the technology to see everything you do. And they are. And they have the technology to tax everything you do. And thus they will, when the society is bankrupt and they have no other place to seek revenue as the global economy collapses and there is no income. How can they tax income if there is not sufficient income in a global collapse? How can they tax VAT if there isn't sufficient commerce in a global economic collapse? Thus they will tax net worth. And they will accuse you of intentionally speculating and destroying the global economy.

Remember every crisis has to be blamed on some group that the government wishes to attack. Hitler blamed the weak for bankrupting the universal health care system, and so the purges began, then this morphed into the "jews" who were accused of perpetuating the hardship from the war reparations. Who will the G20 blame for this crisis? Haven't you heard the rumblings of socialism over there in Europe? They are already talking about banning speculation. Don't you see the recent G20 meetings have made resolutions about going after tax havens.

Ignore politics without anonymity at your own peril.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 255
November 14, 2013, 07:53:25 AM
Well, just saw this http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/11/13/sanitizing-bitcoin-coin-validation/

Seems like the elite forces are already scrambling to identify Bitcoin users. We are all doomed. Smiley

These idiots are going to push all commerce to BRIC(S) nations and further bankrupt the US.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 255
November 14, 2013, 07:44:18 AM
Any one with large size in Bitcoin has to make sure they sell well before the peak. The larger the holding, the earlier they must start selling. Or they use their coins as margin in a deep shorting market, so they retain their coin value by increasing the number of coins they own upon the crash.

Thus I expect deep shorting markets to come as the market cap becomes significant.

The large holders know they can't sell as a way out, they must short as the way out.

Deep shorting markets might also discourage some capital from buying altcoin competitor as a hedge, although I think if any altcoin succeeds it must appreciate faster than Bitcoin thus capital would still be motivated by larger gains.

However with options, then one can amplify their gains on Bitcoin.

Many factors to consider.

I am coming at this from the perspective of being old and more concerned about the future of humanity than just making a buck. If I can make money while doing something to help humanity, then I am much more motivated. I am very concerned that Bitcoin is designed to be cartelized.

I am bit frustrated with people here that they only care about making a buck and ignore the outcome Bitcoin presents. Yet I must not blame them, because they don't really have an alternative.

That is why rpietila response to me was "so make a solution", i.e. shut up and code.

So I am going to quit this discussion.

Good luck to all of you.

And as a fellow coder I can assure you of this:  your communication skills are too poor for your code to make a difference.  The best code doesn't win.  The pretty good code with good speech around it wins.  But good luck anyway.
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