Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 478.

marioantonini

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 20, 2020, 06:00:17 PM

Also, Redbull and AlhpaTauri when they signed a contract with F1 They did till 2025.
So for absurd if They can't find an engine They can't leave the F1.

I think they will end with Renault or they will buy the department from Honda I can't see any other solution.

For sure They don't want this Ferrari engine (next year who knows) and for sure Mercedes does not want to sell the best engine to a strong competitor.

Also, Domenicali can't impose the same engine to every team, Ferrari for example will never use a Mercedes engine for obvious marketing problems.

I don't know the regulation, certainly Domenicali can't impose the same engine on everyone, but it could force mercedes to give the engines to the redbull.
I have no idea of the costs for red bull to buy the honda division and continue developing the engines, but if Mateschitz decides to make this investment, then he wants to get back to winning in a short time

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 21, 2020, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: Naida_BR on November 21, 2020, 03:22:58 AM

You have a right point.
However we saw this year that Mercedes sold R and D to Racing point. They didn't sell their best technology but something near to it and they got deent money for it apparently.
Why not do the same with Red Bull? They can sell an engine that it is not strong as the one that Mercedes is going to use. This way they are going to have an advantage over their competitor for sure.

Yes but in this case is Redbull and with the "second best" engine in case, Mercedes sells the previous year's engine they will be super competitive.

Adrian Newey is probably the best car designer ever lived so is a big risk anyway for them.

A Mercedes motor for Red Bull won't happen. If the do Red Bull is much closer to Mercedes. Verstappen gets the best out if every car so then he will be a real candidate for the championship

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Quote from: Naida_BR on November 21, 2020, 03:22:58 AM

You have a right point.
However we saw this year that Mercedes sold R and D to Racing point. They didn't sell their best technology but something near to it and they got deent money for it apparently.
Why not do the same with Red Bull? They can sell an engine that it is not strong as the one that Mercedes is going to use. This way they are going to have an advantage over their competitor for sure.

Yes but in this case is Redbull and with the "second best" engine in case, Mercedes sells the previous year's engine they will be super competitive.

Adrian Newey is probably the best car designer ever lived so is a big risk anyway for them.

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Quote from: aesma on November 20, 2020, 06:41:07 PM

The talk about RBR buying the Honda "engine team" really surprised me though. I didn't think that was possible, but apparently it is.

Honda had it brilliant days on 1988-1991 by winning 3 titles for the most skillful driver in my opinion Ayrton Senna.
They have the Japanese culture behind them and that means that if they want something they work beyond possible to make it happen.I think Red Bull buying Honda is a great move but let’s see if it will materialize.

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 20, 2020, 06:00:17 PM

Quote from: marioantonini on November 20, 2020, 05:32:13 PM

The limit of cost is totally ridiculous, no one can actually guarantee how much a Formula 1 team spends on developing engines.

the problem is that with these regulations you do not entice a new manufacturer to enter formula 1 for engines and from 2022 with the retire of thonda it will not be an easy thing, at the moment the red bull should be forced to use the renault engines again , I do not think they are able to make them themselves.
I hope stefano domenicali thinks of some radical changes to bring the show back

Also, Redbull and AlhpaTauri when they signed a contract with F1 They did till 2025.
So for absurd if They can't find an engine They can't leave the F1.

I think they will end with Renault or they will buy the department from Honda I can't see any other solution.

For sure They don't want this Ferrari engine (next year who knows) and for sure Mercedes does not want to sell the best engine to a strong competitor.

Also, Domenicali can't impose the same engine to every team, Ferrari for example will never use a Mercedes engine for obvious marketing problems.

You have a right point.
However we saw this year that Mercedes sold R and D to Racing point. They didn't sell their best technology but something near to it and they got deent money for it apparently.
Why not do the same with Red Bull? They can sell an engine that it is not strong as the one that Mercedes is going to use. This way they are going to have an advantage over their competitor for sure.

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The talk about RBR buying the Honda "engine team" really surprised me though. I didn't think that was possible, but apparently it is.

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Quote from: marioantonini on November 20, 2020, 05:32:13 PM

The limit of cost is totally ridiculous, no one can actually guarantee how much a Formula 1 team spends on developing engines.

the problem is that with these regulations you do not entice a new manufacturer to enter formula 1 for engines and from 2022 with the retire of thonda it will not be an easy thing, at the moment the red bull should be forced to use the renault engines again , I do not think they are able to make them themselves.
I hope stefano domenicali thinks of some radical changes to bring the show back

Also, Redbull and AlhpaTauri when they signed a contract with F1 They did till 2025.
So for absurd if They can't find an engine They can't leave the F1.

I think they will end with Renault or they will buy the department from Honda I can't see any other solution.

For sure They don't want this Ferrari engine (next year who knows) and for sure Mercedes does not want to sell the best engine to a strong competitor.

Also, Domenicali can't impose the same engine to every team, Ferrari for example will never use a Mercedes engine for obvious marketing problems.

marioantonini

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 20, 2020, 03:26:23 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on November 20, 2020, 07:15:37 AM

The engine is still gonna be the V6 right? That's all Merc imho. And afaik, the 2022 upgrades level the playing field a bit from a financial perspective making smaller teams keep up with Merc, Ferrari and RBR.

For Ferrari.. It could be something like LFC at football when it took decades before they won another EPL title again. Grin

Yes, the regulation is strange about engines.

They will be the same but they will be different.

2020, no possibility to change the engine in the season.
2021, you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2022 you can change the engine no electrical part
2022 you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2023 you can change the engine no electrical part

2024-2025 Everything frozen.

They did this to limit the costs, without this elimination Mercedes was spending 300m/€ for engines and Honda 400m/€ pushing for catch up

The limit of cost is totally ridiculous, no one can actually guarantee how much a Formula 1 team spends on developing engines.

the problem is that with these regulations you do not entice a new manufacturer to enter formula 1 for engines and from 2022 with the retire of thonda it will not be an easy thing, at the moment the red bull should be forced to use the renault engines again , I do not think they are able to make them themselves.
I hope stefano domenicali thinks of some radical changes to bring the show back

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Quote from: tokeweed on November 20, 2020, 07:15:37 AM

The engine is still gonna be the V6 right? That's all Merc imho. And afaik, the 2022 upgrades level the playing field a bit from a financial perspective making smaller teams keep up with Merc, Ferrari and RBR.

For Ferrari.. It could be something like LFC at football when it took decades before they won another EPL title again. Grin

Yes, the regulation is strange about engines.

They will be the same but they will be different.

2020, no possibility to change the engine in the season.
2021, you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2022 you can change the engine no electrical part
2022 you can change the engine and the electrical part.
2023 you can change the engine no electrical part

2024-2025 Everything frozen.

They did this to limit the costs, without this elimination Mercedes was spending 300m/€ for engines and Honda 400m/€ pushing for catch up

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Quote from: Juggy777 on November 20, 2020, 04:43:21 AM

Quote from: Cnut237 on November 20, 2020, 03:44:16 AM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 19, 2020, 04:25:59 PM

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Yes, exactly. The reason Ferrari are uncompetitive this year goes right back to the ban on their engine. The problem for 2021 is only very limited development will be permitted, so they will surely be uncompetitive again. Whereas 2022 is a complete reset for everyone. It makes absolute sense for Ferrari to put all effort into 2022, and the start of a new era. You can bet that other teams - particularly Mercedes - are already working on 2022 as well. That's when it all changes.

My hope is that the planned 2022 rule changes have the desired effect, and we get to see closer racing with results more dependent on driver skill than anything else.

@Cnut237 Ferrari has already addressed these concerns, and they have acknowledged their intent for 2022 where they plan to revamp their engine and become competitive once more. Furthermore in 2021 I don’t expect Ferrari to compete at all, rather they’re just buying time till the 2022 upgrades kick in, and then hopefully they’ll begin to dominate once more like they used to do in the past.

Source:

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/940675/1/ferrari-won-t-be-competitive-f1-until-2022-says-chairman

The engine is still gonna be the V6 right? That's all Merc imho. And afaik, the 2022 upgrades level the playing field a bit from a financial perspective making smaller teams keep up with Merc, Ferrari and RBR.

For Ferrari.. It could be something like LFC at football when it took decades before they won another EPL title again. Grin

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 19, 2020, 04:25:59 PM

Quote from: Naida_BR on November 19, 2020, 02:25:30 PM

Winning is possible for Ferrari if they invest money on their cars.
Mercedes is the team that gives money to RD, something that Ferrari didn't do during this season maybe because they thought that the season will not be completed due to COVID.

They didn't because there was no point in the regulation.
What is the point in investing all the money where you don't care?

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

It was not only the Ferrari engine,also aerodynamics weren’t of the best.During their first glorious years Red Bull didn’t have the most powerful engine but they were absolutely the fastest in turns and this gave them some Championship wins.I think not only Ferrari but even other teams like McLaren can learn from this.

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 20, 2020, 03:44:16 AM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 19, 2020, 04:25:59 PM

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Yes, exactly. The reason Ferrari are uncompetitive this year goes right back to the ban on their engine. The problem for 2021 is only very limited development will be permitted, so they will surely be uncompetitive again. Whereas 2022 is a complete reset for everyone. It makes absolute sense for Ferrari to put all effort into 2022, and the start of a new era. You can bet that other teams - particularly Mercedes - are already working on 2022 as well. That's when it all changes.

My hope is that the planned 2022 rule changes have the desired effect, and we get to see closer racing with results more dependent on driver skill than anything else.

@Cnut237 Ferrari has already addressed these concerns, and they have acknowledged their intent for 2022 where they plan to revamp their engine and become competitive once more. Furthermore in 2021 I don’t expect Ferrari to compete at all, rather they’re just buying time till the 2022 upgrades kick in, and then hopefully they’ll begin to dominate once more like they used to do in the past.

Source:

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/940675/1/ferrari-won-t-be-competitive-f1-until-2022-says-chairman

Cnut237

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 19, 2020, 04:25:59 PM

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Yes, exactly. The reason Ferrari are uncompetitive this year goes right back to the ban on their engine. The problem for 2021 is only very limited development will be permitted, so they will surely be uncompetitive again. Whereas 2022 is a complete reset for everyone. It makes absolute sense for Ferrari to put all effort into 2022, and the start of a new era. You can bet that other teams - particularly Mercedes - are already working on 2022 as well. That's when it all changes.

My hope is that the planned 2022 rule changes have the desired effect, and we get to see closer racing with results more dependent on driver skill than anything else.

marioantonini

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Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 19, 2020, 04:25:59 PM

Quote from: Naida_BR on November 19, 2020, 02:25:30 PM

Winning is possible for Ferrari if they invest money on their cars.
Mercedes is the team that gives money to RD, something that Ferrari didn't do during this season maybe because they thought that the season will not be completed due to COVID.

They didn't because there was no point in the regulation.
What is the point in investing all the money where you don't care?

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

the ferrari engine this year was absolutely disastrous, but unfortunately it was not the only problem.
If you see a lot of grands prix, the ferrari was also behind teams that had the same engine as it and could not overtake them on the straight

for me it was a mix between engine (60%) car (35%) and I also add a 5% of Vettel, he stopped pushing especially after the news of the dismissal

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Quote from: Naida_BR on November 19, 2020, 02:25:30 PM

Winning is possible for Ferrari if they invest money on their cars.
Mercedes is the team that gives money to RD, something that Ferrari didn't do during this season maybe because they thought that the season will not be completed due to COVID.

They didn't because there was no point in the regulation.
What is the point in investing all the money where you don't care?

The big problem for Ferrari this year is the engine, "re-born" badly after the last year "ban".
Once born the Engine cannot be touched till the end of the season for the new rules they have.
Now, what is the point to invest money if you can't "repair" your biggest problem? Better save money for the next project.

Naida_BR

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Quote from: marioantonini on November 17, 2020, 05:08:52 PM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 17, 2020, 04:55:08 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on November 14, 2020, 02:40:12 PM

Just wondering.. Would you guys join a free to play F1 pool with real prizes in BTC if some sports betting site made it next year? And how many of you would join?

I think I know a guy..

It should be like this...
If you bet on Hamilton you will lose money Grin

Ferrari will be more competitive for sure, they will have officially a new engine but I think is a more reasonable move for them to go all-in for 2022 with new cars instead of trying to catch up the dominance of Mercedes on the last year of this cars...

surely ferrari will focus everything on 2022, but it cannot afford to repeat such a disastrous result also for 2021, it must at least always be present on the podium, I understand that winning is impossible with this mercedes, but we must at least fight with the red bull in the next year

Winning is possible for Ferrari if they invest money on their cars.
Mercedes is the team that gives money to RD, something that Ferrari didn't do during this season maybe because they thought that the season will not be completed due to COVID.

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Quote from: Cnut237 on November 16, 2020, 02:33:39 PM

In case anyone's interested, there's a great article here covering Hamilton's entire career, right back from when he started in go-karts, up to now. It's a long read, but it gives some great insight into him as a driver and a person, and how he has changed over the years, and what it is that has changed him.

Thanks I'm reading it ASAP.

Congrats on Hamilton for the win and world championship ! Too bad he couldn't do it beating a stronger competition, but when you're the best, with the best machine (and that's in part thanks to him too), it's more difficult to find competition.

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The construction of a circuit in West Nusa Tenggara - Indonesia for the MotoGP 2021 are continues, the developer believes that this circuit will become one of the main circuits (not a reserve) to hold MotoGP. However, once construction is complete, the circuit will need to be tested by Dorna and FIM. of course for me an Indonesian citizen is proud if there is a MotoGP in this country next year and for a long time like Sepang circuit.

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Quote from: Koal-84 on November 18, 2020, 11:17:53 AM

That's true that Mercedes is almost impossible to beat under normal conditions. But Ferrari in particular must not try to excuse itself, they have a very high budget for years and cannot get close to Mercedes, and the tricks with the engine were of course not ideal.

They haven't.
From next year the "salary cap" intended on the maximum amount of money a team can spend will be a thing.

To me the logical thing, if they have the economical potential with the covid is to spend the less possible on the next card and already investing the remaining part of the next year cap into the 2022 car, in this way in the 2022's car you will have more money invested.

Koal-84

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Quote from: marioantonini on November 17, 2020, 05:08:52 PM

Quote from: coinlocket$ on November 17, 2020, 04:55:08 PM

Quote from: tokeweed on November 14, 2020, 02:40:12 PM

Just wondering.. Would you guys join a free to play F1 pool with real prizes in BTC if some sports betting site made it next year? And how many of you would join?

I think I know a guy..

It should be like this...
If you bet on Hamilton you will lose money Grin

Ferrari will be more competitive for sure, they will have officially a new engine but I think is a more reasonable move for them to go all-in for 2022 with new cars instead of trying to catch up the dominance of Mercedes on the last year of this cars...

surely ferrari will focus everything on 2022, but it cannot afford to repeat such a disastrous result also for 2021, it must at least always be present on the podium, I understand that winning is impossible with this mercedes, but we must at least fight with the red bull in the next year

That's true that Mercedes is almost impossible to beat under normal conditions. But Ferrari in particular must not try to excuse itself, they have a very high budget for years and cannot get close to Mercedes, and the tricks with the engine were of course not ideal.

Topic: Motosport General discussion tread --- Formula1, MotoGP, WTCC, ETCC, DTM..... - page 478. (Read 144020 times)