Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 275. (Read 908751 times)

Sorry, I made a mistake overseeing it's a SWIFT transfer, probably because it said Europe. SWIFT has people waiting since mid June, so of course he hasn't seen the money yet …

You're providing good info, have you considered creating a thread with up to date facts for people who would like to withdraw via SWIFT/SEPA/Japan domestic?

SEPA is EUR only.  USD is international wire, a different queue.  There are several queues, and you are punished for multiple withdrawals.  For SEPA you are punished for very large withdrawals (> 30k EUR) as well, because MtGox are limited by amount/day.  For other international wires MtGox are limited by number of wires/day.

They don't even follow the chronological order of withdrawals within a queue that is 2 1/2 months old. What a joke.

SEPA = EUR

Was this in usd or eur?

Thanks for the useful info. I'm still waiting on a 4 figure USD wire to Europe from July 2nd.

Why not make your signature a little bigger so the rest of that shit disappears of the screen.

Finally received a 5 figure SEPA transfer from July 4th 

I really feel this is more a fractional reserve issue than a bank issue.  Like any fractional reserve situation  you want to be the first one out before they declare insolvency.  Being a pain in their ass as suggested here is good advice.

The "hiatus on withdrawals" started on June 20, 2013. 90 days have gone by.

90 days is an important milestone. As a rule of thumb, a business creditor that's 90 days behind will probably never pay without coercion. That's when you send an account to a collection agency.

There are ways to apply pressure to Mt. Gox.  If Mt. Gox owes you money, file complaints with the Japan Financial Services Agency, the US Securities and Exchange Commission, the small claims court in Delaware, and the Japan Payment Service Association (website for complaints: www.s-kessai.jp). Contact reporters at Forbes, Business Week, the Wall Street Journal, and Nikkei Sangyo Shimbun. Raise hell until you get paid everything you're owed or Mt. Gox's CEO is in jail.

It doesn't matter if Mt. Gox has problems with their bank. That's their problem.

If you're out of Mt. Gox but paid a premium to get out, a suit in Delaware Small Claims Court for any extra fees you paid might work. There's a legal concept, the "pre-existing duty" rule, which usually applies when someone raises the price on something they already agreed to do.

You don't have to put up with being jerked around. Fight back.

Those were cases of fraud, and illegal in all the involved countries.

The US SEC complaining to Japan FSA about a problem created by the DHS?  Would be fun to see the response.

Yes, there are many reports in this thread and in other threads on this forum.  And SEPA wire transfers, which are a special case of international wires, work.

All lawyers I know, which are a few, are always very careful to make sure their statements are accurate and correct.  So much it can be very annoying at times.  If I claim they are wrong, they will just repeat the statement and tell me what I misunderstood, or refer to a law which they often know by heart word for word in it's original spelling.  You are the opposite of the lawyers I know.  You make statements which you either know are wrong or at last very inaccurate, and you don't make any effort to be accurate or correct.  Perhaps this is something you learn in shady law schools in the USSA.  A shame in my opinion.  No wonder lawyers are held in rather low regard in the USSA, judging from all the lawyer jokes.

Thanks for the withdrawal status update. This is probably why my 631 EUR withdrawal is stuck since 2 weeks ago. I asked support to check if there was any problem with the bank details or the like and this was their vague, copy-paste answer:


So no news other than the increased 3-week delay for EUR withdrawal (it was 2 weeks before).

Sending money to and from phones is money transfer, and of course it applies.  Do pawn shops need a registration?

Ok so now that we are done with (at least I am "ignored") the rantings of sturle, the actual topic here is the gathering delays in money wire transfers out of MTGOX. Has anyone successfully completed an international wire transfer from MTGOX post the US fed issues? I never understand why people get so worked up over discussions online, which then leads them to forget how to interact with people in a civil manner.

This just states the facts.  It does not suggest that MtGox are able to apply for a MSB licence directly.  For that MtGox would need a subsidary in the USSA, which they didn't have at the time, and that subsidiary would have to apply.  Am I not right?

See?  Exactly what I have been saying.  Mutum Sigillum LLC is engaged in a money transmitting business.  They did not claim the same for MtGox.

And again.  Mutum Sigillum are claimed to be in the money transmitting business.  Not MtGox.

Again: Which summer school did you attend to get a law degree?

Those were direct quotes from the warrants - so I have nothing further to say. I cannot address your fundamental refusal to see what is plainly stated and that entities conducting business in the US are subject to US law. Please feel free to rant on if you wish but it will not get MTGOX back its  Millions of dollars that were seized because they felt they could do business in the US and were not subject to US law (like you do).

You are lying again.

First of all DHS made no ruling against MtGox.  Just Mutum Sigillum.  At least in all the papers I have read.  If you have other information, please present it.  If you can't present evidence of the ruling, which you claim is a fact, I suggest you withdraw your claim.

Who cares if DHS thinks MtGox is a money transmitter?  MtGox operates in Japan, and are subject to Japanese laws.  Not USSA laws.  This is even stated in the warrant.  They only went after Mutum Sigillum, wrongly claimed to be a subsidiary of MtGox, and not MtGox.

Japan is more restrictive than the US in some ways. Until recently, you couldn't do anything with other people's money unless you were a bank. As of 2009, there's the "Payment Services Agency" classification, but that requires registration and audits too. Most cell phone companies in Japan are now also PSAs, so they can send money to and from phones.
Only to ones which deal with US persons. SEC rule: "Foreign broker-dealers that, from outside of the United States, induce or attempt to induce securities transactions by any person in the United States, or that use the means or instrumentalities of interstate commerce of the United States for this purpose, also must register. This includes the use of the internet to offer securities, solicit securities transactions, or advertise investment services to U.S. persons."

Whether Bitcoin is a security is an interesting legal question. One lawyer argues that Bitcoins themselves are not a "security" under US law, but he writes "The securities definitions outlined above might not apply to Bitcoins themselves, but they are flexible enough to apply to Bitcoin exchanges that convert a Bitcoin to real-world currencies."

There's a long history of investment-like schemes crafted to get around SEC regulations. There was, of course, Trendon Shavers' Bitcoin Ponzi scheme. There was a scheme to sell paving stones from Australia, a scheme to sell fractional shares in fruit groves, and even psychic stock predictor. All were found subject to SEC jurisdiction. Companies in China have been fined by the SEC. Being outside the US doesn't help if you do business in the US.

Realistically, if it works like "Customers deposit money and can't get it back", some financial regulator has the authority to bring the hammer down. The US SEC and the Japan FSA have a formal cooperation agreement.
That's FinCen. They're concerned about money laundering. The SEC is concerned about ripping off investors.

More information from the original warrant (please do not quote dissect and tell me where you think I am mistaken as this is direct quotation from the warrants and is the position and opinion of the government agents)

The warrant then notes that “neither Mt. Gox nor the subsidiary, Mutum Sigillum LLC, is registered as a Money Service Business.” Such registration with FinCEN — the US Financial Crimes Enforcement Network — is required for money transmitting businesses under US law.

A Maryland-based confidential informant — referred to in the warrant as CI-1 — told government agents he established new  accounts with both Mt. Gox and Dwolla. The informant stated he deposited US funds in his Mt. Gox account, then used Dwolla to exchange those funds for bitcoins. He later used Mt. Gox to exchange the bitcoins back into US dollars, which were credited to his Dwolla account.

“According to bank records, this transfer was completed through the subsidiary, Mutum Sigillum LLC,” the warrant states. “This demonstrates that Mutum Sigillum LLC is engaged in a money transmitting business but is not registered as required with FinCEN.”

Bank records showed that “a number of deposits” to Mutum Sigillum’s Wells Fargo account were made via international wire transfers from Japan’s Sumitomo Mitsui Bank in the name of Mt. Gox. Afterward, those funds were “frequently disbursed to Dwolla.” Because Mutum Sigillum transferred those funds without FinCEN registration as a money transmitting business, the contents of its Wells Fargo account “were subject to seizure and forfeiture,” the warrant states.

A seizure warrant for the Wells Fargo account was issued on May 9, 2013.