MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 276.

davidspitzer

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Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 05:11:08 PM

Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 05:00:46 PM

Maybe this will clear it up - quoted during the recent seizure (emphasis added)

"U.S. authorities planned to seize Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account, they already stated that Mt. Gox’s Wells Fargo accounts were the real issue. In order to accept funds in dollars, the company opened a Wells Fargo business account for Mutum Sigillum LLC (Mt. Gox’s American subsidiary). But it declared that Mt. Gox was “a business not engaged in money services.”

This is clearly wrong. Mutum Sigillum is much older than MtGox, and not a subsidiary. MtGox and Mutum Sigillum has the same owner, but one is not the subsidiary of the other.

Quote

In particular, president and CEO Mark Karpeles answered ‘no’ to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

And they didn't at the time.

Quote

According to the Department of Homeland Security, the Bitcoin exchange service should be considered as a money transmitting company. More recently, New York’s top banking regulator confirmed this view"

You are mixing apples and oranges. Mutum Sigillum transferred USD, not Bitcoins.

once again you may dice and comment as you wish but the US government will continue to hold MTGOX accountable as a currency exchanger and money transmitter - The department of homeland security views them as a money transmitter - this is not my ruling but rather theirs. I am not saying I even agree with it - but it is a point of fact

davidspitzer

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Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 05:04:01 PM

Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 04:50:56 PM

Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 04:28:31 PM

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws? Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what? I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA. Mutum Sigillum was. You should read the warrant. Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They cannot cloak US money transmissions through a secondary company and not be subject to US law.-
The warrant demanded that Dwolla hand over the keys to account number 812-649-1010, which is owned by Mt. Gox subsidiary Mutum Sigillum LLC, and held in the custody of Veridian Credit Union.

and since you asked I have a Law Degree (Juris Doctor)

I do US money transmission through secondary companies (banks), and I am not subject to US law. The banks are subject to US law. Not me. I couldn't care less about the laws of the USSA.

Same thing for MtGox. Mutum Sigillum is subject to US law, and did engage in money transmitting between MtGox and Dwolla. Dwolla are subject to US law. Verdian Credit Union and Wells Fargo are subject to US law. MtGox are not. MtGox are subject to Japanese law.

Where did you earn that law degree? Some summer course on Bali?

MTgox is subject to US law if it wishes to do business in in the US. You may not agree with this and that is valid but it does not change the reality of the situation. I see no need to be rude and if you cannot conduct yourself in a civil manner without name calling and divisive come backs then I have no time for you. If you wish to discuss it rationally and respectfully then I will be more then happy to continue.

The bottom line for MTGOX is that they funneled money through a subsidiary in the US to Dwolla and also maintained a Wells Fargo account in the US. The funds in those account were derived from money exchange activities - Funds owned by MTGOX and personal funds of the owner were seized by the US government for failure to register as a money transmitter in the US. If they do not want to be subject to US law then they will need to cease doing business in the US. Whether you or I agree with this position the US government has taken is irrelevant. They will continue to seize money and may hold MTGOX civilly and criminally liable till they are in compliance.

sturle

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Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 05:00:46 PM

Maybe this will clear it up - quoted during the recent seizure (emphasis added)

"U.S. authorities planned to seize Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account, they already stated that Mt. Gox’s Wells Fargo accounts were the real issue. In order to accept funds in dollars, the company opened a Wells Fargo business account for Mutum Sigillum LLC (Mt. Gox’s American subsidiary). But it declared that Mt. Gox was “a business not engaged in money services.”

This is clearly wrong. Mutum Sigillum is much older than MtGox, and not a subsidiary. MtGox and Mutum Sigillum has the same owner, but one is not the subsidiary of the other.

Quote

In particular, president and CEO Mark Karpeles answered ‘no’ to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

And they didn't at the time.

Quote

According to the Department of Homeland Security, the Bitcoin exchange service should be considered as a money transmitting company. More recently, New York’s top banking regulator confirmed this view"

You are mixing apples and oranges. Mutum Sigillum transferred USD, not Bitcoins.

sturle

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Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 04:50:56 PM

Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 04:28:31 PM

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws? Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what? I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA. Mutum Sigillum was. You should read the warrant. Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They cannot cloak US money transmissions through a secondary company and not be subject to US law.-
The warrant demanded that Dwolla hand over the keys to account number 812-649-1010, which is owned by Mt. Gox subsidiary Mutum Sigillum LLC, and held in the custody of Veridian Credit Union.

and since you asked I have a Law Degree (Juris Doctor)

I do US money transmission through secondary companies (banks), and I am not subject to US law. The banks are subject to US law. Not me. I couldn't care less about the laws of the USSA.

Same thing for MtGox. Mutum Sigillum is subject to US law, and did engage in money transmitting between MtGox and Dwolla. Dwolla are subject to US law. Verdian Credit Union and Wells Fargo are subject to US law. MtGox are not. MtGox are subject to Japanese law.

Where did you earn that law degree? Some summer course on Bali?

davidspitzer

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Maybe this will clear it up - quoted during the recent seizure (emphasis added)

"U.S. authorities planned to seize Mt. Gox’s Dwolla account, they already stated that Mt. Gox’s Wells Fargo accounts were the real issue. In order to accept funds in dollars, the company opened a Wells Fargo business account for Mutum Sigillum LLC (Mt. Gox’s American subsidiary). But it declared that Mt. Gox was “a business not engaged in money services.”

In particular, president and CEO Mark Karpeles answered ‘no’ to two important questions: “Do you deal in or exchange currency for your customer?” and “Does your business accept funds from customers and send the funds based on customers’ instructions (Money Transmitter)?”

According to the Department of Homeland Security, the Bitcoin exchange service should be considered as a money transmitting company. More recently, New York’s top banking regulator confirmed this view"

sturle

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Quote from: marcovaldo on September 17, 2013, 04:36:07 PM

Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 04:28:31 PM

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws? Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what? I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

They have a .com website.
If they had a .jp one, it would be different, but with .com they have to comply to some rules.

This must be the most desperate suggestion I've read so far. thepiratebay.org is still alive, btw.

davidspitzer

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Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 04:28:31 PM

Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 03:17:40 PM

Quite clearly the US sees them and will hold them to the financial laws that govern money exchanges. They are akin to any other currency exchange, it matters not that that one of the currencies they deal with is Bitcoin. However they view themselves and no matter how unique their services, they are classified and will be accountable like any other currency exchange/money transmitter. A lesson painfully learned just recently

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws? Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what? I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA. Mutum Sigillum was. You should read the warrant. Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They cannot cloak US money transmissions through a secondary company and not be subject to US law.- (the same would be true for a US company transmitting funds to a japanese financial institution - if you want to do business with a target country you must comply with their laws
The warrant demanded that Dwolla hand over the keys to account number 812-649-1010, which is owned by Mt. Gox subsidiary Mutum Sigillum LLC, and held in the custody of Veridian Credit Union.

and since you asked I have a Law Degree (Juris Doctor)

sturle

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Quote from: manfred on September 17, 2013, 03:06:06 PM

Quote

I think you are wrong. MtGox isn't a financial insistitution, and aren't registered under Japan Financial Services Agency. There is no category for companies like MtGox. Only banks and other companies involved in payment services, financial instruments, insurance, etc, are.

They should be registered as a financial institution because they are. If I sent them some Money a halve a year ago and never brought a coin for one reason or another and now want my money back then all this time they save kept it for me = Financial institution.

By what definition? Yours or Japanese law? Usually financial insitutions are those which either create money (banks) or facilitate the transfer of money between different people/companies (payment services) or issue various financial instruments, e.g. securities, swaps, insurances, etc. Just keeping other peoples assets safe does not make a fincancial institution.

marcovaldo

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Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 04:28:31 PM

Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 03:17:40 PM

Quite clearly the US sees them and will hold them to the financial laws that govern money exchanges. They are akin to any other currency exchange, it matters not that that one of the currencies they deal with is Bitcoin. However they view themselves and no matter how unique their services, they are classified and will be accountable like any other currency exchange/money transmitter. A lesson painfully learned just recently

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws? Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what? I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA. Mutum Sigillum was. You should read the warrant. Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

They have a .com website.
If they had a .jp one, it would be different, but with .com they have to comply to some rules.

sturle

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Quote from: davidspitzer on September 17, 2013, 03:17:40 PM

Quite clearly the US sees them and will hold them to the financial laws that govern money exchanges. They are akin to any other currency exchange, it matters not that that one of the currencies they deal with is Bitcoin. However they view themselves and no matter how unique their services, they are classified and will be accountable like any other currency exchange/money transmitter. A lesson painfully learned just recently

Why should MtGox, operating from Japan, follow USSA laws instead of Japanese laws? Does USSA law apply to all bitcoin exchanges because what? I think MtGox will get closed pretty quickly if they start operating according to a different set of laws than what governs them in Japan.

MtGox has never been accused of operating as a money transmitter in the USSA. Mutum Sigillum was. You should read the warrant. Have you ever read anything about law, or just pretending?

davidspitzer

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Quote from: manfred on September 17, 2013, 03:06:06 PM

Quote

I think you are wrong. MtGox isn't a financial insistitution, and aren't registered under Japan Financial Services Agency. There is no category for companies like MtGox. Only banks and other companies involved in payment services, financial instruments, insurance, etc, are.

Good one, a league of there one.

They should be registered as a financial institution because they are. If I sent them some Money a halve a year ago and never brought a coin for one reason or another and now want my money back then all this time they save kept it for me = Financial institution.

Quite clearly the US sees them and will hold them to the financial laws that govern money exchanges. They are akin to any other currency exchange, it matters not that that one of the currencies they deal with is Bitcoin. However they view themselves and no matter how unique their services, they are classified and will be accountable like any other currency exchange/money transmitter. A lesson painfully learned just recently

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Quote

I think you are wrong. MtGox isn't a financial insistitution, and aren't registered under Japan Financial Services Agency. There is no category for companies like MtGox. Only banks and other companies involved in payment services, financial instruments, insurance, etc, are.

Good one, a league of there one.

They should be registered as a financial institution because they are. If I sent them some Money a halve a year ago and never brought a coin for one reason or another and now want my money back then all this time they save kept it for me = Financial institution.

davidspitzer

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Quote from: CYPER on September 17, 2013, 02:16:13 PM

I have 1500USD and want them in my UK bank account and I'm unsure what to do.

My bank told me they support SEPA even though the account is in GBP, but Gox support says they can't send SEPA.
So I'm left with International Wire Sad

international wires are taking an extremely long time - weeks/months? I have not heard of a successful international wire since the Dwolla issues in the US - I am not saying that there has not been any, but I have not seen it and I have been waiting almost 5 weeks for an international wire transfer myself. If there is anyone here that has been successful perhaps they could speak to your expected wait but as for me - I would cash out your US dollars for BTC and transfer the BTC to your own wallet and seek greener pastures. you will see your money faster selling locally to other bitcoin people or buying gold or silver online with someone like Amagimetals.com.

I dont know what is going on with MTGOX but I am staying away until they have sorted it out (if they ever do)

CYPER

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I have 1500USD and want them in my UK bank account and I'm unsure what to do.

My bank told me they support SEPA even though the account is in GBP, but Gox support says they can't send SEPA.
So I'm left with International Wire Sad

davidspitzer

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Quote from: mechs on September 16, 2013, 07:06:56 PM

Quote from: dlasher on September 16, 2013, 05:34:48 PM

since I can only speak for myself personally:

- withdrawal requested as international wire to US on 6/11/2013
- multiple requests for status, all with lame responses.
- MtGox CS actually suggested canceling request
- canceled 9/13/2013 - USD returned to MtGox account.
- immediately bought BTC and withdrew it

In my opinion, MtGox has turned into an accidental Ponzi scheme, and they no longer have cash to fund withdrawals. Get out while you can.

I think this is the truth. I think the 10% risk premium for Mt. Gox cash is greatly underestimated. This will end badly and those stating here they are not concerned will be left holding the bag when the shit hits the fan, the value of Mt. Gox USD really plummets and they lose a lot more than they current have.

I am on week 4 heading to week 5 waiting for US funds to my bank after selling 1 bitcoin

prophetx

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Quote from: sturle on September 17, 2013, 06:23:22 AM

Quote from: prophetx on September 16, 2013, 10:48:10 PM

has anyone gone to the IRC chat channel to ask what is current status?

Current status for SEPA. Unfortunately it looks like the queue is getting longer again. People have discovered that SEPA works:

Lower than 400 EUR about a week
Higher amounts take about 10 business days (i.e. two weeks)
20 business days between withdrawals

All SEPA withdrawals from August and earlier have been processed, with the exception of some users who had more than one withdrawal in the queue.

New information: 400 EUR is dynamic (was 1000 EUR last time I talked to support). It depends on how they can fill the daily quota most efficiently.

thanks.

if you are on there again anytime soon, you should ask him what is the status/progress of fincen and related state compliance

howdoin

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USD still VERY problematic (CITIBANk customers)... I have been trying to withdraw since June, I had to issue several withdrawals due to limits - at first they were cancelled in June (By MtGox) due to the problems with Citibank in the US. Reissued the withdrawals order, which once again MtGox cancelled after a month because they said they had too many request to process and did not make sense for me to have so many >> they cancelled all requests and upped my limit so that I only had one large withdrawal... fast forward 2 months later they have now cancelled my request from 8/8 claiming that they will no longer process withdrawal request to Citi accounts.

>>> their proposed solution >>> that I open an account in a different bank with no guarantee for the withdrawal to be processed anytime soon.... I now believe that the amount will just be stuck there indefinitely and have very little chance of ever seeing it back (which I kinda of assumed before but still had some hope).

My only option left is to use the fiat, buy Bitcoin and transfer it so my wallet (done)

>>>> in the end they win as they make commission on my Bitcoin purchase and I no longer have fiat on the account / sneaky but this is where the cash for you other guy comes from basically....

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Quote from: prophetx on September 16, 2013, 10:48:10 PM

has anyone gone to the IRC chat channel to ask what is current status?

Current status for SEPA. Unfortunately it looks like the queue is getting longer again. People have discovered that SEPA works:

Lower than 400 EUR about a week
Higher amounts take about 10 business days (i.e. two weeks)
20 business days between withdrawals

All SEPA withdrawals from August and earlier have been processed, with the exception of some users who had more than one withdrawal in the queue.

New information: 400 EUR is dynamic (was 1000 EUR last time I talked to support). It depends on how they can fill the daily quota most efficiently.

sturle

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Quote from: dlasher on September 16, 2013, 05:34:48 PM

In my opinion, MtGox has turned into an accidental Ponzi scheme, and they no longer have cash to fund withdrawals. Get out while you can.

They are processing withdrawals in JPY (domestic) and EUR (SEPA), so they must have funds. I doubt they are getting much fiat in to fund withdrawals from, which means they have reserves as well.

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Quote from: Nagle on September 16, 2013, 03:41:50 PM

Quote from: sturle on September 16, 2013, 08:57:13 AM

I think you are wrong. MtGox isn't a financial institution, and aren't registered under Japan Financial Services Agency. There is no category for companies like MtGox. Only banks and other companies involved in payment services, financial instruments, insurance, etc, are.

That's wishful thinking. Of course they're a financial institution. They take deposits and hold customer money. (And don't pay it back when they should.) If they're lucky, the FSA will just consider them a payment services firm.

MtGox is a place to buy and sell bitcoins. When you transfer money to MtGox is it for the purpose of buying bitcoins. This makes MtGox more like a shop than a financial institution. MtGox never advertised themselves as a place to store money. And they are definetly not doing payment services, since you are unable to withdraw to other peoples accounts. Just your own.

Quote

In the US (where Mt. Gox does have a legal presence, in Delaware), they're probably a broker/dealer, and need to qualify as a broker/dealer under US law to deal with US customers. That means SEC registration, audits, insurance, capital requirements, and background checks. Read "Who is a broker" from the SEC.

I would like to see the law stating they "probably" are. Laws are usually very specific. Either you are or you are not. Their legal presence in Delaware don't make USSAnian laws apply to their Japanese operations in any way. Otherwise it would be impossible for e.g. banks to have offices in Switzerland, where there are strict privacy laws regarding banks and their customers, and in other countries where the government demand that banks release information on their customers holdings.

Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 276. (Read 908751 times)