Topic: MtGox withdrawal delays [Gathering] - page 278. (Read 908613 times)

That's possible too, and I'm kidding myself. yes I have a personal interest in that this ends well. If Gox turns out to be only deceit build by thieves, not only customers will get burnt. This will be a fail of Bitcoin as anything more than drug money! Bitcoin itself will survive unharmed. But the concept of a voluntary decentralized currency as a builder of trust professionally will get hurt on a level visible in the exchange rate!!!

Posting a web article telling one side of the story is easy! Compared to Bitcoinica and Intersango, and even the former famous pyramid schemes around here, the article does not contain any accusations or mud slinging  nor any attempt to flea responsibility. If there was a top 10 credibility list on statements from troubled Bitcoin businessess, Gox would be on top for actually being able to issue a "statement", or what we should call this article, without compromising them self further. True or not, this is so far the most convincing proof of intelligence within a Bitcoin business to date.

I don't think it makes any difference what bank the wire is to. If we are talking SWIFT wires we are talking SWIFT wires. My bank in particular uses citigroup as the intermediary (which is the bank gox was having issues with). So I think your first statement is incorrect. 

All reasonable and supported by some known facts and the events which have transpired

You make a lot of assumptions here

Who actually believe the issues with USD withdrawals are really due to technical issued with their banking partners?  I think it is obvious that they are operating a fractional reserve and do not have close to enough funds if everyone wanted to pull out their fiat.  A real-life exchange or investment bank is required to put customer funds in segregated accounts, but this is not the case with Mt. Gox. 

Honestly, the issue is they do not have the cash and these capital controls are meant to prevent a "run on the bank" which would sink Mt. Gox.  They are using customer deposits to pay ongoing legal, regulatory and operational expenses.  Considering they missing over 5M being held by the US Government and need to keep a substanial reserve for possible legal settlements, things will not get better anytime soon.  It is not conforting they are lying about the real reason (it probably criminal), but I see why they are doing it.  They are hoping to "earn" themselves out of this hole and hoping for a settlement in the near term with the US Gov for the frozen customer funds as well as Coinlabs for the Mt. Gox customer funds they are withholding and legal settlements.

Mt. Gox USD is trading at a substanial discount to real USD, hence the "inflated" value of BTC on the exchange as it is the only way to get funds out of Mt. Gox.  This is going to end badly and it is dangerous to try to time this.  Once Mt. Gox goes bust, there will be lots of missing customer funds, and after a long legal and complicated liquidation process, depositers will get back pennies on the dollar.

Nice to hear that some withdrawals are carried out. It depends also a lot on witch bank you are transferring to and which method from what currency. All exchanges have struggled with that!

So reading the article: http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-responds-to-coinlab-lawsuit-with-5-5m-in-counterclaims/

also outlines their plan: getting back in the black by tightening the belt to cover the running deficit this year caused by the money bonded / confiscated.
Second, reaching a settlement with Coinlab, or the remainders thereof! If they can agree on a good legal mediator, they might be able to settle their disagreement on a sensible level out of court.
Thirdly, keeping customer confidence and trading accounts loaded.

When they are able to announce the figure agreed on with Coinlab, Gox's value can be determined. Then if they are still short (bounds between 5M and 14M USD worst case, I  think), they could choose to issue stocks (the authorised way) or attract a few investors. I'm quite sure that a few of the angel investors have considered that or even approached them before.

All that is, so far, only wishful thinking on my behalf, but imagining that the info in the article is correct, a lot of good solutions are available to Gox right now and the rescue might only be a phone call away.

it can possible be argued that Coinlab have had a provable loss of a determinable value, but they have no responsibility to customers funds on Gox now as is? If that's the case Gox signed a very stupid contract, possible not holding water if this goes to court, meaning that customers, as third party, is a commitment for Gox, the remaining business partner. I.e. Coinlab deserted it's own US customers, as I understand it, placing extra costs and capital demands on Gox. An excellent base for a counter claim!

Maybe it's not my business to come with suggestions, but things are absolutely workable for them right now. The article yesterday made a lot of sense!!

Thanks.

i'm still waiting on a SEPA withdrawal from june, i don't believe these fast sepa withdrawals

i made a withdraw request on the wednesday the 11th late afternoon and the money was on my account on friday! 100€ (98.6€ arrived)! german bank account!

yeah I think their defense about breach of contract for noncompliance in registering is legit (although I think excessive regulation requirements are hindering startups)... would rather see gox win whos run the biggest exchange for 4 years than a business that isn't sure what its own buseness entails...seems theyre off on other ventures now funding companies while holding money of customers elsewhere...gox is in the right imo and the lab is wrong...a failed experiment hence why lab was in the name...lol

Yes sorry, my wishes come true! First impression: Coinlab gets laughed out of court if they take it all the way. 75M in compensation for US costumers not sorted probably, a joke in my legal unprofessional opinion.

If I remember right, customers were sorted by IP when Coinlab joined the party, and proxies were used by some and it was before KYC verification had been done on a large scale and most traded in USD. So I guess that Coinlab found out that they had gotten less US customers out of the deal than they bargained for.

From the article it appears that Gox has been running the tightest ship and they go to great extent to protect customer interests.

This article is great, and I would like to see it on other media!
Sorry to Gox for my almost ranting in this thread, however their customer support should have  been a little less obvious in deceiving customers in the preceding months, and they should have had a response ready on a similar level as in the article some time in June already, That would have been a responsible response.

About tightness: Funny that two businesses sign a million Dollar contract and non of them thinks it's a good idea to spend 1000$ on a lawyer to go over their business plan?

God speed Gox, I'll sleep better tonight

I think you hit the nail on the head there.



Absolutley, i actually don't know anymore than you guys and I've had a long hard think about things and come to my personal thoughts:

• No mention of the court case - commenting on it is probably not advisable until its all over just in case anything is used negatively in the case?
• Withdrawl issues - Whilst i know they're actively seeking more banking partners to alleviate the problem, the last thing you would do is go around shouting about their current partners as that would only annoy them / cause them to cease operations completely but also potentially annoy new prospective partners. I guess we live in a banks world and they really hold the keys

I actually have a very large sum of money in gox right now and I'm really not worried about it. If i actually needed it right now.... i'd be quite miffed as im sure many of you are.

Del

same news site but different article (w 2 month 1 day difference...very up to date than the other) a good read ...seroiusly

Yeah, read that, it was posted earlier in this thread, But there are no response from Gox on that info. For legal reasons they might want to keep tight but the normal thing to do would be to issue a press statement to their pledge or something.

Why don't Gox use their voice on this, on anything officially?

I'm not really any more trying to find out what happened, and this thread has been valuable for that purpose.  I just can't dig why Gox is not taking a more offensive extrovert approach. Others have been sued and either, filed a counter claim or started an image campaign or took other steps.

The Bitcoinica disaster that turned into a nightmare for Intersango really just exposed Two businesses that didn't have that much substance when they were cracked open, their flaw being inexperience on security and legal hurdles running an exchange and international regulations.

Are we demanding Too much of Gox, is Bitcoins largest exchange more like Apple in the early eighties?
Are we fair in demanding reliability like from any bank when we in reality are dealing with a small tech startup?

Is it reasonable to demand some degree of honesty and openness? I think so.

http://thegenesisblock.com/mt-gox-responds-to-coinlab-lawsuit-with-5-5m-in-counterclaims/

a good read about gox money situation...w links to actual filed documents in the case

Well just a request to them to lay some cards down here, or even better,  do it through some main stream media.

I've noticed that televised news about Bitcoin is no longer a daily occurrence, as it was in April.

(I've been away from the scene 4 months not reading any posts and started to wonder what happened to my withdrawal from Gox when I checked back in last week and discovered this mess), so I'm a little chocked, and generally Bitcoin has faded a little in the spotlight it seems, (not necessarily behind the scenes in number of serious businesses).

So this is more an appeal than a petition: Gox; Karpels, whomever please give us a resume of how you view your current situation and what action you are taking internally and with authorities and what kind of time frame you are expecting to sort things out.

If Gox was any other multinational money business they would have put a great effort in calming customers and investors in press statements and in articles in relevant media. A good Public Relations manager would have used a dire situation like this to reach out to a greater audience for free!

So WTF is Happening? Hiding under a rock is ridiculous.

Which petition do you mean?

That's good news. Copy pasted your post.

What about the money confiscated by the DHS? They are not lost I guess, but held until it's determined if they have to pay a fine or that they are not earnings from illegal activities ?

So the money are still an asset to Gox going into the balance sheet when they are released?

What do you consider to be a "sufficient duration"?

Basic rule of collection: "The longer you wait, the less likely you are to get the money owed to you." When a business gets 90 days behind in their payments, they're probably never going to pay without coercion.  Mt. Gox announced their "temporary hiatus" on June 20, 2013.  Today is September 14, 2013 - day 86.

There are lots of options. For amounts up to $10,000, you can sue in Small Claims Court in Delaware. Mt. Gox, to comply with FinCen rules, has a nominal "office" in Delaware for service of process. That makes them subject to U.S. law. You can file a complaint with the US Securities and Exchange Commission, on the grounds that Mt. Gox is acting as an unlicensed broker/dealer in the US. You can get advice on collection of debts in Tokyo from the Japan External Trade Organization, and they can tell you how to file a complaint with the Japan Financial Services Agency.

You can do all of those things simultaneously. Once you start to apply pressure like that, you usually get paid. 

Mt. Gox is in Japan, which is a major trading partner with the US. Financial disputes come up all the time, and they're routinely resolved. The US SEC and the Japan FSA talk to each other; they even have a formal cooperation agreement. It's not Romania.

It used to be easy to get an in depth answer from Mt.Gox owners around here if there was trouble.

So I'm the first to sign a petition here to have them post a credible business plan here. Not a confession disclosure of business secrets or finger pointing to whom inside is to blame.

Some sort of update on what they are doing now and issues they have troubles with, founded in the suggestions published in articles the lasts months.

If this was 60 minutes, consider this a request for a Bill Rathner special report on Mt. Gox, even if they conclude that it will take another four months before withdrawals are up to speed if they can indulge some confidence in me and others,they'll win a lot right away and in the long run. This could also be an opportunity to attract help from outside money, if they choose to break this wall of silence.

Signed

Luno

@Luno
You mention lots of valid points.

I think I should have stated it differently. What I tried to convey is, that the format
of a 70+ pages thread on bitcointalk is ok to inform future users, as you state it,
but lots of energy is not really channeled.

I am dreaming of a bitcoin exchange ranking site, where incidents are reported in
a uniform format, backed up by evidence or proof. This would increase the
competition for excellence, i.e. customer support. If this would be set up the right
way, output of such a site could serve as a starting point for legal action.

I am just bouncing around an idea...
BTW, I agree with you on all points.