Pretty sure BFLs paypal account is exhausted of funds and refunds going forward will be difficult if not impossible.
But hey $350,000 is nothing to sneeze at.
Topic: Need a PayPal refund for your BFL purchase? - page 8. (Read 33998 times)
Guys.. Go the legal route. File a complaint with the county consumer court.
Fill out the form here http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf
Fill out the form here http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf
really we shall all do this, it is the straight way
I've sent a request to PayPal two days ago. So far, I don't see any funds being reimbursed back into my account.
"Unsolicited" is a word open to interpretation. Brandon knew that I did not want the product and had been refunded, in advance of dispatch, and I have proof of this fact. By sending me the product I am liable for an import duty of 20%, which is approximately £160. The courier in the UK (Parcelforce) pays this, in advance, upon arrival in the UK. This is a deliberate inconvenience they have chosen to cause me.
The legal advice I have just received is that I should pay the tax, accept delivery and then inform BFL that they have 28 days to reimburse me the import duty and arrange for collection. This seems fair to me.
There's tons of UK legislation that is meant to protect customers from tactics like this:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/schedule/1/made (especially paragraph 5 - bait advertising)
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_problems_with_delivery_e/consumer_unsolicited_goods_e/youve_received_goods_or_services_you_didnt_ask_for_distance_sales.htm
The legal advice I have just received is that I should pay the tax, accept delivery and then inform BFL that they have 28 days to reimburse me the import duty and arrange for collection. This seems fair to me.
There's tons of UK legislation that is meant to protect customers from tactics like this:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/schedule/1/made (especially paragraph 5 - bait advertising)
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_problems_with_delivery_e/consumer_unsolicited_goods_e/youve_received_goods_or_services_you_didnt_ask_for_distance_sales.htm
Basically, what this guy said. I've canceled orders in the past with companies that failed to deliver, and they have shipped days/weeks after the chargeback. My CC company has always said the same thing: "we recommend" returning it but that it's ultimately up to me because it's mine to do with as I wish.
Once an order is canceled, it's no longer requested. If someone sends you an order after that point, it's yours.
IE. you have a magazine subscription. It ends and you don't renew. They send you a 13th issue and then try to charge you for it. You don't owe anything because it was unsolicited. The fact that you had a subscription prior means nothing.
In the case of BFL, they had been contacted to be let know he had done a chargeback. This was effectively locking in his canceled order. When they shipped after this, it legally became unsolicited mail as he no longer had any desired business with them.
It *would* be different if they shipped *prior* to the chargeback. But once they have that notice, it's done.
"Unsolicited" is a word open to interpretation. Brandon knew that I did not want the product and had been refunded, in advance of dispatch, and I have proof of this fact. By sending me the product I am liable for an import duty of 20%, which is approximately £160. The courier in the UK (Parcelforce) pays this, in advance, upon arrival in the UK. This is a deliberate inconvenience they have chosen to cause me.
The legal advice I have just received is that I should pay the tax, accept delivery and then inform BFL that they have 28 days to reimburse me the import duty and arrange for collection. This seems fair to me.
There's tons of UK legislation that is meant to protect customers from tactics like this:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/schedule/1/made (especially paragraph 5 - bait advertising)
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_problems_with_delivery_e/consumer_unsolicited_goods_e/youve_received_goods_or_services_you_didnt_ask_for_distance_sales.htm
The legal advice I have just received is that I should pay the tax, accept delivery and then inform BFL that they have 28 days to reimburse me the import duty and arrange for collection. This seems fair to me.
There's tons of UK legislation that is meant to protect customers from tactics like this:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/schedule/1/made (especially paragraph 5 - bait advertising)
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_problems_with_delivery_e/consumer_unsolicited_goods_e/youve_received_goods_or_services_you_didnt_ask_for_distance_sales.htm
“unsolicited” means, in relation to goods sent to any person, that they are sent without any prior request made by him or on his behalf.
donch, thats a quote from the legislation you linked. Clearly these shipments are not "unsolicited".
donch, thats a quote from the legislation you linked. Clearly these shipments are not "unsolicited".
Still thinking about how to proceed...with BFL not doing business with PayPal anymore I'm not sure what more there is that can be done besides going the legal route...
It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that. Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.
It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that. Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.
That guy on reddit probably broke it with his greed (and love of beer). He even got his own website listing down everything except the email address.
It actually gets better. Given that Brandon at BFL knew, and has admitted, that I had been refunded via Paypal in advance of dispatching the item, BFL are liable for a £400 fine in the UK:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/30
Brandon really shouldn't have sent that email... Feel like I'm giving BFL legal advice here.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/30
Brandon really shouldn't have sent that email... Feel like I'm giving BFL legal advice here.
Quote
Hello Donovan,
No, this isn't a freebie. We submitted the shipping and tracking information to PayPal. You can ask PayPal to reverse the refund.
Kind regards,
Brandon
No, this isn't a freebie. We submitted the shipping and tracking information to PayPal. You can ask PayPal to reverse the refund.
Kind regards,
Brandon
A) The rep's at the office have a refund quota per a specific period of time. (A week? A month?) It was probably exceeded by funneling too many refunds at once.
B) The Paypal account that was frozen had limited funds and they have been exhausted plus whatever PayPal quota they have for issuing refunds on a specific merchant account.
C) Paypal has probably begun legal actions against BFL and is trying to recover a large sum of money.
D) You overworked the rep to death, and he just quit responding.
E) The rep is answering emails, just too damn many to get through in such a short period of time. (More time is required)
F) BFL figured out a way to screw PayPal?
B) The Paypal account that was frozen had limited funds and they have been exhausted plus whatever PayPal quota they have for issuing refunds on a specific merchant account.
C) Paypal has probably begun legal actions against BFL and is trying to recover a large sum of money.
D) You overworked the rep to death, and he just quit responding.
E) The rep is answering emails, just too damn many to get through in such a short period of time. (More time is required)
F) BFL figured out a way to screw PayPal?
G) BFL stopped answering the phone.
Ranio, many thanks for that link. The phrase "unsolicited merchandise" is a gem. This sentence deserves its own quote:
Quote
If you open the package and like what you find, keep it — free. This is a rare instance where “finders, keepers” applies unconditionally.
Still thinking about how to proceed...with BFL not doing business with PayPal anymore I'm not sure what more there is that can be done besides going the legal route...
It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that. Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.
I think one the following might have happened.It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that. Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.
A) The rep's at the office have a refund quota per a specific period of time. (A week? A month?) It was probably exceeded by funneling too many refunds at once.
B) The Paypal account that was frozen had limited funds and they have been exhausted plus whatever PayPal quota they have for issuing refunds on a specific merchant account.
C) Paypal has probably begun legal actions against BFL and is trying to recover a large sum of money.
D) You overworked the rep to death, and he just quit responding.
E) The rep is answering emails, just too damn many to get through in such a short period of time. (More time is required)
F) BFL figured out a way to screw PayPal?
Still thinking about how to proceed...with BFL not doing business with PayPal anymore I'm not sure what more there is that can be done besides going the legal route...
It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that. Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.
It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that. Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.
Just received this reassurance from Paypal that BFL cannot reverse my refund, despite shipping the item:
It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.
Quote
The refund that you received is final and will not be reversed back to the merchant. The only way the merchant would get funds again would be if you initiated another payment. As you have already received a refund for the transaction, it is our recommendation that you refuse the package when it arrives at your address.
It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.
I love the law (at least here in the US)!
http://about.usps.com/publications/pub300a/pub300a_tech_021.htm
Essentially what you got was an unsolicited package, which means it's yours to keep if you want. You will be recommended to return it, but in all actuality it's yours to do as you please.
At the absolute fastest, I'm sure it will take about 2 weeks to get shipping in order so you can send it back.
We all know how long 2 weeks is... Just received this reassurance from Paypal that BFL cannot reverse my refund, despite shipping the item:
It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.
Quote
The refund that you received is final and will not be reversed back to the merchant. The only way the merchant would get funds again would be if you initiated another payment. As you have already received a refund for the transaction, it is our recommendation that you refuse the package when it arrives at your address.
It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.
I love the law (at least here in the US)!
http://about.usps.com/publications/pub300a/pub300a_tech_021.htm
Essentially what you got was an unsolicited package, which means it's yours to keep if you want. You will be recommended to return it, but in all actuality it's yours to do as you please.
we just need the higher ups a paypal to also be p'o'd and slap BFL down as an example....
Phase 2, coming soon to a bitcointalk thread near you.
I send the emails Sept 22 and still I didn't receive response.
Do you will post the new thread?
Thanks for your effort!
Doesn't seem like we're receiving many refunds over the past couple days. I'm gonna give it a couple more days then may initiate a new plan, but this will not be done before we can confirm PP has stopped responding.
Again, I need a good writer. If you've got skillz hit me up.
Again, I need a good writer. If you've got skillz hit me up.
Yeah I got a hold of someone at paypal like 5min ago...disputes..they said because it was not a cc order and over 45 days only option was to contact my bank and see if I can get the bank xfer reversed that way....he said that there are a "crapload" of people trying to get $$$ back from BFL non credit card ie 'bank xfer" looks like paypal is gonna pass the buck to your bank......(not much luck there i'd imagine) ...so ....I also told him about the executive email option that we sent the email too as stated in the bfl refund thread....he said good luck they seem to be swamped with people trying to get around 45 days...so it looks like either my bank will come thru (unlikely they will probably punt me back to paypal imho...at which paypal says it is a dead end) or the email we sent to the addresses given are high enough up on the paypal chain of command they continue to do something about this.....just because it ticks off the higher ups at paypal...so hopefully paypal comes thru and does the right thing ...but I can hear josh on the phone saying to paypal it is "unnecessary" 2 more weeks..
nice to know they got all this nice pre-order cash....so they could build their nice shiny monarch for there newly created "mining farm" (ie see main page on orders)...if I was paypal i'd feel played as well but we will see..
anyway....email route here looks likely to be the last hope....anyone you phone via voice at paypal don't seem to have the clout....but they did confirm that a lot of p/o'd people saying they have gotten played by BFL ....we just need the higher ups a paypal to also be p'o'd and slap BFL down as an example....
anyway not sure what the above means except no one contacted directly via voice at paypal seemed to have a clue on how to fix this ..ie not enough clout....so we will see.....
not looking too good imho thou
Searing.
Hey Searing!!! Welcome to the Bitcointalk forum & the best of luck on your refunds!!!!!!!!
DO NOT give up!!!!!!!! Keep hounding your bank or Paypal!!!!!!!!!
Just received this reassurance from Paypal that BFL cannot reverse my refund, despite shipping the item:
It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.
Quote
The refund that you received is final and will not be reversed back to the merchant. The only way the merchant would get funds again would be if you initiated another payment. As you have already received a refund for the transaction, it is our recommendation that you refuse the package when it arrives at your address.
It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.
Guys.. Go the legal route. File a complaint with the county consumer court.
Fill out the form here http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf
Fill out the form here http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf
ANYWAY, you will want to contact the Johnson County District Attorney in Johnson County Kansas. They are handling the case
Lot of complaints. Please fill the form on da.jocogov.org
Better than nothing, they've been investigating BFL bad policy since the beginning.
Lot of complaints. Please fill the form on da.jocogov.org
Better than nothing, they've been investigating BFL bad policy since the beginning.
we just need the higher ups a paypal to also be p'o'd and slap BFL down as an example....
Phase 2, coming soon to a bitcointalk thread near you.
we just need the higher ups a paypal to also be p'o'd and slap BFL down as an example....
Phase 2, coming soon to a bitcointalk thread near you.
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