Topic: Need a PayPal refund for your BFL purchase? - page 6. (Read 34011 times)

The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.

So annoyed by Josh's bullshit. He doesn't even know what a hedge is. You invest in something and you reduce the risk of that investment by betting that the value might go down by purchasing another financial instrument. ie. you buy two things. Typically you'd invest in an equity and then put a short option on the same equity, so that you minimise your losses either way.

If I was hedging on the bitcoin price I'd buy Bitcoins and also buy an option on the price going down. In what way is putting my money into BFL's bank account for a year reducing my risk on the movement of the price of bitcoin? If I get a refund I still haven't made any money on Bitcoin because I didn't have any Bitcoin because BFL had my money!!!

Josh is a stupid asshole who thinks he's cleverer than he is. It's annoying me that he is annoying me :-)

From: [email protected]
Subject: Your PayPal Account ? Case(s) PP-x, PP-x (x) :ppNA

Dear Mr. [ x ],
 
Thank you for reaching out to PayPal for assistance regarding your dispute with Butterfly Labs.
 
After a thorough review of your claim, we have determined we cannot continue with this investigation because your complaint was filed 45 or more days after the original transaction date.
 
In order to prevent a similar issue in the future, you are able to learn more about how we investigate transaction problems by clicking “Legal Agreements” at the bottom of any PayPal page, then click “PayPal User Agreement.”
 
You can find additional information and tips about buying and selling safely on our Business Resource Center at https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/manage-your-business.
 
You are valued customer and we are sorry we were not able to meet your needs.
 
Thank you for your patience and cooperation regarding this matter.
 
Sincerely,
PayPal

The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.

Only Tara, Adam and Michael worked for me. Hopefully something good comes out of those phone calls.

Thanks

"Should you have a PayPal problem that needs decision making authority, these are the persons you can contact directly. Each one of these persons has the power to review your account, unlimit your account or arrange for your money to be returned to you.

PayPal Office of Executive Escalations:

1-402-935-2269 (Michelle, Executive Escalations)

1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations)

1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent)

1-402-952-8951 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent)"

The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.

So annoyed by Josh's bullshit. He doesn't even know what a hedge is. You invest in something and you reduce the risk of that investment by betting that the value might go down by purchasing another financial instrument. ie. you buy two things. Typically you'd invest in an equity and then put a short option on the same equity, so that you minimise your losses either way.

If I was hedging on the bitcoin price I'd buy Bitcoins and also buy an option on the price going down. In what way is putting my money into BFL's bank account for a year reducing my risk on the movement of the price of bitcoin? If I get a refund I still haven't made any money on Bitcoin because I didn't have any Bitcoin because BFL had my money!!!

Josh is a stupid asshole who thinks he's cleverer than he is. It's annoying me that he is annoying me :-)

While we reserve the right to handle refund requests on a case by case basis, pre-ordered products are non-refundable as is clearly stated at the time of purchase.  The reason for this is that pre-order funds are used in the build process which makes it impractical to reverse.  It's also been observed that some small number of customers have placed orders as part of a bitcoin price hedging strategy which involves multiple requests to cancel and then re-enstate their orders as market conditions change.  This has created an enormous customer service burden which is resolved by enforcing the all sales final policy.
Some customers have asked why we've given order cancellation refunds to others, but they can't get one.  The answer is that we had opted to process order cancellation requests during our long product development phase as a courtesy to those who endured the stress of the unknown.  However, once full production began, a notice was sent out advising that orders would be shipped as produced according to the order queue and that if anyone was unwilling to endure the wait, they had a final opportunity to cancel.  Customers were required to positively confirm their desire to remain in the order queue and accept the order terms.
Pre-Order terms for new orders were updated on the website on April 1, 2013.  The terms state, "I accept the terms of the sale and understand that all sales are final and there is a backlog of orders and production & delivery of my order may take 2 months or longer."
As a Wyoming Corporation, we operate under the US Federal Trade Commission's business guide for mail or telephone ordered merchandise.  The relevant guideline suggests that if no delivery terms are stated or agreed to, then 30 days should be assumed.  In our case, we've gone to great length to ensure there is no ambiguity.  Customers are/were notified of the back order situation, the inability to cancel their order and the multi month wait to be expected. However, we have added a new feature to your account dashboard. You have the option of selling your order. There are more details and instructions on how to do so on our facebook page.
Announcing a Pre-Order Marketplace

Butterfly Labs is excited to announce a platform that will help merge the needs of both parties. A seller will be able to announce the sale of their pre-order position in our classifieds forum. They will establish the terms of sale and make the deal on their own. Once a deal has been made, they will use the transfer system in their account Dashboard to transfer an order to a new owner. When both parties verify and agree to the terms, the order will be moved to the buyer's account.

The order transfer system was set in place September 10, 2013.Butterfly Labs will only provide the platform for the order transfer to take place. We are not responsible for any deals made between our customers. Use of the order transfer system is solely the risk of the parties making the order transfer deal. Buyer's must agree to the original terms of the sale, and specifically to the no refund policy.
Here is the relevant FTC guideline text:
"when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days."

Kindest Regards,
Tamika
Butterfly Labs