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Topic: Nefario - page 60. (Read 198678 times)

newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 09, 2012, 01:29:29 PM
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Not all laws are moral to support.

I still agree with that exactly as much as the first ten times you tried to plant the strawman there. 

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No, it doesn't.  It revolves around Nef closing the exchange without notice.  There is ZERO evidence that any "authorities" have been contacted by Nef.  Maybe you should reread the explanation for awarding the tag.

That is what they claim, however the true motive is quite obviously revenge on Nefario for blowing the whistle and preventing Theymos from dumping the stock on the forums.  Had Nefario allowed that final scam to go through, Theymos would never have complained just like he never complained before about the illegal activity they were engaged in

And neither did you.  Or did I miss the post detailing your call to the SEC?
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!
October 09, 2012, 01:19:42 PM
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Not all laws are moral to support.

I still agree with that exactly as much as the first ten times you tried to plant the strawman there. 

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No, it doesn't.  It revolves around Nef closing the exchange without notice.  There is ZERO evidence that any "authorities" have been contacted by Nef.  Maybe you should reread the explanation for awarding the tag.

That is what they claim, however the true motive is quite obviously revenge on Nefario for blowing the whistle and preventing Theymos from dumping the stock on the forums.  Had Nefario allowed that final scam to go through, Theymos would never have complained just like he never complained before about the illegal activity they were engaged in. 
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 09, 2012, 01:11:28 PM
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I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly, BTW.  Hence my "runaway slave" analogy.  Securities laws are bad laws that enslave people by forcing them to take actions they do not desire.  Assisting in jailing people who ignore bad laws is the immoral act, IMO.

But again, we are not dealing with runaway slaves.  The law is against slavery just like it is against scamming people with unregulated exchanges.

But the principle remains the same.  Not all laws are moral to support.

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Again, to whom did he blow the whistle?  Where is any implication of whistle blowing on his part?

The whole dispute centers on his decision to contact legal authorities and his conflict with the other members of his criminal enterprise who did not want this to happen.  The parties who had the whistle blown on them have been quite loud about how upset it made them that the whistleblowing prevented them from dumping the stock on the forum before everyone here knew it was worthless. 

No, it doesn't.  It revolves around Nef closing the exchange without notice.  There is ZERO evidence that any "authorities" have been contacted by Nef.  Maybe you should reread the explanation for awarding the tag.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!
October 09, 2012, 01:10:38 PM
A more proper shutdown would have gone something like:

"I regret to announce that GLBSE will be closing.  It turns out that operating the exchange poses some significant legal risks that we are not comfortable with.  As of now, all trading is suspended.  Users may login to withdraw their BTC.  Issuers may do the same, and can also download their database of who owns what shares."

Would that have been so hard?

It's still not too late to do exactly that.

Many of the listed shares are in scam companies.  It would only be a further criminal act to begin refunds without verifying Nefario is further incriminating himself.  He also can't work with an organization fractured because individuals like Theymos continued to try and scam even as legal action was imminent.  No, his best bet was to do what he did.  Blow the whistle on the whole thing and trust the matter to the authorities. 
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 09, 2012, 01:07:45 PM
A more proper shutdown would have gone something like:

"We regret to announce that GLBSE will be closing.  It turns out that operating the exchange poses some significant legal risks that we are not comfortable with.  As of now, all trading is suspended.  Users may login to withdraw their BTC.  Issuers may do the same, and can also download their database of who owns what shares."

Would that have been so hard?

It's still not too late to do exactly that.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!
October 09, 2012, 12:54:39 PM
I feel that we all have an obligation to report illegal activity

So, have you reported the vast majority of the bitcoin community for not paying Capital Gains tax when they cash out bitcoins for a profit, then?  

Any time I see illegal activity on this forum I report it immediately.  I personally prevented a user here named Dank from starting a business to sell illegal drug paraphernalia and just yesterday reported to the proper authorities a user here who was impersonating a federal enforcement officer.

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Have you, in fact, reported the financial gains you've made through bitcoin?

Of course I have.  What possible reason would I have to avoid doing so?  I have a succesful business in the fiat world as well and I have no intention of risking everything I have built by evading taxes.  

The legal risks of evasion are not even my chief concern. Paying taxes is our patriotic duty to our nation without which we could not have built our great successes.  

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I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly, BTW.  Hence my "runaway slave" analogy.  Securities laws are bad laws that enslave people by forcing them to take actions they do not desire.  Assisting in jailing people who ignore bad laws is the immoral act, IMO.

But again, we are not dealing with runaway slaves.  The law is against slavery just like it is against scamming people with unregulated exchanges.

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Again, to whom did he blow the whistle?  Where is any implication of whistle blowing on his part?

The whole dispute centers on his decision to contact legal authorities and his conflict with the other members of his criminal enterprise who did not want this to happen.  The parties who had the whistle blown on them have been quite loud about how upset it made them that the whistleblowing prevented them from dumping the stock on the forum before everyone here knew it was worthless. 


 
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
October 09, 2012, 12:46:44 PM
Anyone else think that the reason he isn't just releasing the database and keeping all the bitcoins and running has to do with him creating a lot of fake and false IPO's, paying fake dividends from the sale of new fake IPO's and that if he did release the database to allow everyone to at least be able to get their assets back that we'd all find out he was running a bunch of mini ponzi's?

Above post was written with about 4 cups of coffee so I apologize for the run on sentences, but you get my point...
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
October 09, 2012, 12:44:07 PM
I feel that we all have an obligation to report illegal activity

So, have you reported the vast majority of the bitcoin community for not paying Capital Gains tax when they cash out bitcoins for a profit, then?  Have you, in fact, reported the financial gains you've made through bitcoin?

I find both scenarios highly unlikely.

I disagree with this statement wholeheartedly, BTW.  Hence my "runaway slave" analogy.  Securities laws are bad laws that enslave people by forcing them to take actions they do not desire.  Assisting in jailing people who ignore bad laws is the immoral act, IMO.

I believe Nefario decided to blow the whistle on the operation

Again, to whom did he blow the whistle?  Where is any implication of whistle blowing on his part?

"A whistleblower is a person who tells the public or someone in authority about alleged dishonest or illegal activities (misconduct) occurring in a government department or private company or organization."
Where is there any indication that Nef did any such thing?  There's nothing about it on the GLBSE homepage and nothing about it here in th forums.

hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
Portland Bitcoin Group Organizer
October 09, 2012, 12:43:42 PM
Has anyone received communication about this? I would think a mass emailing for AML information request would be the logical next step.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 09, 2012, 12:42:11 PM
I hope the funds are returned; this will resolve most of my objection.

Same here.  That, and giving the database to those users/issuers who need it.

It's still a great loss, and has been handled terribly, but if he does these two things, I will feel satisfied that he has, in the end, done all that he ought to to fix the situation.

Edit: An apology would be nice too, but that may be pushing it.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
October 09, 2012, 12:40:52 PM
from GLBSE.com website... is this recent? What does this mean exactly?

"Update:we will begin processing account closures and returning bitcoin later today."

It was put up yesterday, deadline has passed.... It's meaning is the exact same thing as when Pirateat40 stated he would payback in 2 weeks... It means everyone got scammed.
member
Activity: 69
Merit: 10
a big question mark
October 09, 2012, 12:40:47 PM
from GLBSE.com website... is this recent? What does this mean exactly?

"Update:we will begin processing account closures and returning bitcoin later today."

Welcome sir... this is the year 2012 and GLBSE has been shut down...
The message you are seeing is outdated and no one here has yet reported having received any BTC back. I doubt we'll ever get to see that.

Oh, and there is massive trolling here too, if you care for that kind of action. Kick off your shoes and get some popcorn. Or a beer. Or a crate. Depends how much you had on GLBSE.
newbie
Activity: 27
Merit: 0
October 09, 2012, 12:39:06 PM
Recent as in around 1 day ago yes.
hero member
Activity: 616
Merit: 500
Portland Bitcoin Group Organizer
October 09, 2012, 12:37:06 PM
from GLBSE.com website... is this recent? What does this mean exactly?

"Update:we will begin processing account closures and returning bitcoin later today."
full member
Activity: 367
Merit: 100
October 09, 2012, 12:35:13 PM
So what, he gets to just say one day "Oops, I've been running illegal shizz this whole time.  I'mma shut it down and keep all the BTC?"

That's a helluva business model.

Agreed.  Although this isn't why he was given the scammer tag, this is the sticking point for me.  I hope the funds are returned; this will resolve most of my objection.  Of course the fact that they were frozen and not returned as indicated still remains.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 09, 2012, 12:32:19 PM
In general I agree, however in this case that is punishing the whistleblower in regards to Nefario.  The tags should be focused on individuals like Theymos who intended to continue to run the scam before Nefario stopped it.

So what, he gets to just say one day "Oops, I've been running illegal shizz this whole time.  I'mma shut it down and keep all the BTC?"

That's a helluva business model.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!
October 09, 2012, 12:25:15 PM
You should consult a lawyer before starting any business, or listing any IPO. 

I did neither.  I just opened an account and deposited 50 BTC.

When you work with the mafia in the business world they may not disclose to you that what you are doing is illegal, but there is a minimum amount of effort and common sense you are expected to have as businessmen.  If you invest on an unregulated stock market, common sense dictates the risks. 

If the exchange was in fact illegal, not disclosing this to all affected parties is by itself justification for a Scammer tag IMO.

In general I agree, however in this case that is punishing the whistleblower in regards to Nefario.  The tags should be focused on individuals like Theymos who intended to continue to run the scam before Nefario stopped it.  
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
October 09, 2012, 12:24:44 PM
If the exchange was in fact illegal, not disclosing this to all affected parties is by itself justification for a Scammer tag IMO.

Although not interested so much in the scammer tag discussion I am not quite sure how would such an exchange *know* it's being illegal without there being any actual legal precedent (AFAIA bitcoins are still legally undefined)?
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1000
October 09, 2012, 12:21:19 PM
You should consult a lawyer before starting any business, or listing any IPO. 

I did neither.  I just opened an account and deposited 50 BTC.

When you work with the mafia in the business world they may not disclose to you that what you are doing is illegal, but there is a minimum amount of effort and common sense you are expected to have as businessmen.  If you invest on an unregulated stock market, common sense dictates the risks. 

If the exchange was in fact illegal, not disclosing this to all affected parties is by itself justification for a Scammer tag IMO.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 100
Look upon me, BitcoinTalk, for I...am...Rarity!
October 09, 2012, 12:18:43 PM
I have not been making the argument that he is being forced, no.  Other folks have.  I feel that we all have an obligation to report illegal activity and I believe Nefario decided to blow the whistle on the operation.  

I do not believe by any standards, legal or not, an agreement to continue to allow scamming of the users of this forum to occur is valid.  
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