Topic: NPR's Border Fact Check - page 2. (Read 1500 times)

To any who may have found it unable to watch Trump's short talk, because Youtube search engine does not get you to it, but only to the Democratic response, here is a direct link. However long the link works, who knows. The POTUS speech begins at 20:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1Bw3YYj-bA

Expect much more of this sort of blatant censorship in pursuit of ideological and anti-American goals.

Again, taxes are collected by force. You can pretend it is a choice but it is not. You feel like you are entitled the the fruits of the labor of others, and some how that is returning the means of production back to the workers?

If you don't like it well you can just get out... that argument sounds familiar.

It is not the same thing. At all. Your skull is full of pudding. Your brain has no substance or form, and your ideology flows like water to fill any space it is poured into. You have no principles, you don't even have reliable definitions for words. Your Postmodernist mind mush has rotted your brain, and now you are attempting to infect others with your mental disease.

How convenient your confusion of legal and illegal immigration allows you to make spurious claims about the contributions that illegal immigrants do not actually make to our economy. I am sure that was just an honest mistake and not a disingenuous attempt at trying to lie to support your argument.

No they are not hiding.

No one is forcing you to owe taxes.  Almost half of americans owe no federal income tax.  If you want to use our public property to do business, then you have to pay a fee.  You could always move to a tax haven or burn your passport and go out into international waters.  See how much income you earn without taking advantage of public use.   You conduct business to try and better your life but you don't have to.  They cross borders to try and better their life but they don't have to. Its the same thing except they often literally have guns to their heads and you don't.

I confuse legal with illegal immigrants because I am advocating for making the illegal immigrants legal immigrants.  I don't think there should be illegal immigrants because it forces them into hiding. Immigrants are a benefit to our nation but people being forced into hiding is a benefit to no one.

You have an idea what I am talking about because I have properly defined your behavior and told you what it was. At least, now you do.

The relation of immigration / aging population you mention works under certain controlled conditions. That is not what you propose, you proposed total chaos. And what you get from that is total chaos, duh.

Controlled immigration SUCH AS LEGAL IMMIGRATION CAN AND DOES take such economic theory into account.

You might be smart enough, but you aren't honest enough to admit it if it ever does even happen. You are never "wrong" you are simply viewing things from a different perspective in your view, therefore there is never an incorrect answer right Captain Postmodern? That is not how reality works.

Your agenda is that you have a pathological need for narcissistic supply, and to have others reaffirm and enable your ideology of collectivized malignant narcissism. Either that or you are on the job, I am not sure which. Maybe both.

TAXES ARE COLLECTED AT GUNPOINT. If you don't pay taxes, men with guns come and either kill you or put you in a cage until you do. This is how the resources for the programs you propose are collected. It is as simple as that.






WAT?



Nope. In fact data shows illegal immigrants are a net drain on tax resources. Here you are again purposely trying to confuse illegal immigrants with legal immigrants in order to claim they have some benefit for our nation, and also try to subtly try to entrap me into making generalizations so you can later claim I am against all immigration, or insinuate I am racist.


So guilt by association? That is your argument? Great I am glad we agree the only reason you brought up racism was a pathetic attempt to slander me by guilt by association. The ONLY reason you need to inject racism into this is because you are supporting a LOSING argument and you have nothing to back your premise up with, so you must rely on racism as a crutch to try to elicit emotional response as a substitute for logic.

I see, you think we can have massive immigration and huge entitlement programs and a functional economy, but MY VIEWS of economics are simplistic.

You don't have sources for any of your claims, this is all just garbage Postmodernist mantras that become "true" through repetition through enough dimwits such as yourself in an attempt to appear valid via sheer numbers. You all say it, but none of you can ever back any of it up.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I don't  know who alinsky is and looked him up but the description on wikipedia wasn't anything like what you are saying. 

Regardless,  you have it backwards.  Its Trumpism that would actually collapse society.   A country's government functions and social services actually become overloaded when there is high education and no immigration.  The population demographic shifts to an aging population and there aren't enough workers to support it.  This is what is happening in Japan and was happening in much of Europe.  Mass immigration is the only way to maintain age balance.

Either you are ignorantly parroting Alinksyian views directed towards collapsing American society by overloading social services and government functions, or you are actively intent on it.

Which?

I am trying to comprehend what you are saying and am smart enough to be open to the idea that I may just be ignorant.  There is not end to be had here. What could my bitcointalk forum agenda possibly be other than to learn?  

The USA has always claimed to be the mommy and the daddy of the world, I was brought up on that idea.  There is a huge statue in new york harbor supporting that idea.  I'm not saying that is wise or best idea in self interest but its something that has been hardwired in culturally.  People like me are the unintended consequence of that propaganda.  You always talk about funds being collected at gunpoint and that is such a lie.  No one is forcing you to pay taxes in the same way no one is forcing them to enter the US illegally at gunpoint.  You chose to earn money in our system to better your life and taxes are the cost of using that system.  The irony is that immigrants pay those same taxes.  In the lifetime, 2nd generation immigrants pay everything back that their parents received many times over.  

I bring up racism because the historical association of your point of view with racism is real regardless of your intentions.   Systemic racism in the US immigration system is real. Systemic racism has nothing to do with your intentions and is something that has to be actively undone.  It cannot be ignored and must be brought up whenever even possibly relevant.  Yes, we will always be suspicious that those who insist racism be ignored and left out of the conversation.    

Your simplistic view of economics views immigration in isolation.  You aren't accounting for the fact that immigrants work and pay taxes and their children grow up to make significant contribution to our economy.  More workers allows for a larger economy and a larger economy allows for more welfare spending.  It only works this way if we legitimize their presence though.  They become a massive burden only when people don't allow them to obtain legal status.  No legal status makes it difficult to work which makes it difficult to pay taxes and forces them into a cycle of dependent poverty.  This status quo may very well be what the democrats want but its not what I want.  US population could swell to 350 million and we wouldn't run out of space.  The economic growth would create more opportunities for everyone. 

You don't even bother attempting reading comprehension do you? You are either duplicitous or exceptionally ignorant, and your sophist tactics largely make me suspect you are disingenuous and find lying a justifiable means to an end. You aren't even attempting to comprehend my words, you simply project what you already choose to believe upon whatever I say, regardless of its logical validity. I say less people will attempt the journey, you see "GOOD MORE DEAD MEXICANS, LESS TO CROSS!", I was saying a wall is a deterrent to even attempt, making the risk of the journey not a factor.

That point made you then shift the goal post to the dangers of existing in their home nations, as if the USA is the mommy and daddy of the world, and we are responsible for their well being. It has nothing to do with who's fault it is that they are poor, it is simply NOT OUR RESPONSIBILITY as a nation. If you privately want to fund immigrants coming here legally with your own money, you go for it. You don't get to mandate the forced collection of funds at gunpoint to fund your narcissism.

If you really believed any of what you just said you would never have bought up any of that racism bullshit. This was nothing but a pathetic, desperate, and shameful attempt to try to smear me by insinuation and association. Just another demonstration how little regard you hold for minorities, you see calling racism as a means to an end of your own, not a means to deter bigotry.

If you knew a damned thing about economics you would know that uncontrolled migration combined with large welfare programs is a GUARANTEED recipe for financial collapse. It is not even a debate, it is a mathematical fact. This is not just my personal quality of life, it is EVERYONE'S here, including yours. Furthermore "quality of life" makes it sound like I will get one less fast food hamburger a month as a sacrifice. No, this is societal collapse, 3rd world dumpster fire quality of life drop. All so you and your narcissistic commie pals can stand around and jerk each other off over how humanitarian and morally superior you are.





I am beginning to think this guy is looking for the final solution.

So I told you what you are thinking then in bold you tell me I don't know what you are thinking then immediately repeat what I told you you were thinking in the first place.  Instead of derailing, I'll move on and pretend you didn't just do that. 

Its not self imposed danger because they did not choose to be born into a dangerous place.  I guess you could see it that way if you view these events in a vacuum but the result is they are simply coming here to escape even greater dangers.  The desert with a wall will still be a lesser danger than what they are escaping.  The risk will still be worth the reward.  Unless you want to address the motivating factors, people will always flow away from danger towards safety.  I'd respect it if you wanted to devote a lot of attention and resources to reducing the motivating factors but you don't.   If people choose to stay home and die to that violence as opposed to violence caused by the US in the US, those aren't lives saved.  The only lives saved are the refugees who are granted asylum and go on to live awesome lives in the US. 

I know some things about you based on your posts on this board.  I know a lot about your motivations and the way you view the world and those in it.  I know your motivations aren't race based but they are for a lot of people who share you view.  You have made your motivations clear on this issue.  Your motivations are bottom line oriented and grounded in the fear that poor people coming here will make your life more difficult.  You are worried that you will have to pay for their services or that the services you rely on will crumble under the pressure of added people . You don't care about their race.  In fact, you've made it clear that you want people of all races to come here jsut as long as they are wealthy or talented so that they can contribute to your quality of life. 

Its not clear but I am confident that you are a colorblind individual.  You don't care more about poor white people than poor people of color.  You think its all of their own faults that make them poor.  A true capitalist cannot be actively racist because that is not good for the bottom line.

It's a long standing argument of US Democrats that their spending on social programs is "investment." And they literally have a fifty year history of avoiding accountability on it. It's always "This time it will be different."

One reason they hate Trump so much is he called them on that lie during his campaign, and promised to actually do things to help the inner city ghettos.

Another thing I find interesting is the way their "solutions" always expand the non-productive social service classes of college educated idiots. Notice how this guy's "solution" involved hiring lots of social workers?

No you don't know what I am thinking. You don't even know what you are thinking most of the time, you just open your mouth and tilt your head and let the bullshit drip out of your mouth because you think it sells your ideology.


"welfare spending is an investment with vast asset returns"

HAHAHA I would LOOOOVE to see you try to find the math on that one.


"only goes toward more danger and death"

What the fuck are you even talking about? Any danger faced is SELF IMPOSED. Once it is known the wall is there LESS PEOPLE WILL ATTEMPT THE JOURNEY. If anything the wall being there will fucking SAVE LIVES by your ass backward logic. Its like me breaking into your house and tripping over a crate you left by the door and crying and saying you should pay my hospital bill. I should have never been there to begin with therefore the injury is 100% self imposed.

Also fuck you for insinuating the only possible motivation I could have is being racist and wanting to harm people you self righteous Postmodernist piece of shit. YOU DON'T KNOW A GOD DAMNED THING ABOUT ME, who I am or my racial make up. Even if you did it would not be indicative of anything but your own bigotry.

In fact I argue that you yourself are the racist. Not only are you racist against white people, but you don't give a fuck about minorities either. To you, they are just poor inferior people you get satisfaction from LARPING as if you are helping them, giving you a sense of superiority while you use them as a shield from criticism of your own actions and ideologies. To you they are just convenient tools and pawns to accomplish your goals. They are used and disposed of once they are no longer needed.

This is a pattern of behavior that is endemic to the left and the Democrats have a long and storied history of racist policy that is WELL DOCUMENTED.  You simply run around accusing others of racism as a mask to shield yourself from this justified criticism. You are little more than a naive self righteous child who thinks they know the best way to run the world, and anyone who disagrees must just be an evil Nazi bigot. I reiterate, go fuck yourself.

It's ridiculously easy to use sensors to locate and image tunnels. Ground penetrating radar and acoustic methods come to mind.

Cartels will not get around the wall with tunnels.

but even with that point, the barriers do not stop them from getting in.  We have them now and we will have them with a border wall.  The money spent on barriers, security, walls and enforcement only goes towards more danger and deaths so why bother when we have the immigration anyway.  Seems like a waste unless you don't mind the death.  What better way to try and discourage people from coming than a real threat of death on the way?

and i know you are thinking that more security=less migrants even if it doesn't stop all of them but that also corresponds to more spending.  So was the goal of keeping them out truly a financial one?  Perhaps the goal was simply to slow the dilution of our whiteness after all.

less security spending
more migrants
more welfare spending

or

more security spending
less migrants
less welfare spending
more deaths

Seems like an easy choice unless you are completely immoral and don't see the deaths as a factor.  Not to mention welfare spending is an investment with vast asset returns while security spending is a dead end liability.

Yeah, cool story Captain Postmodern. Very creative how you shoehorned in native Americans even though we both know that wasn't what I was referring too. Whatever allows you to jam in some more victim culture right?

The problem is not uncontrolled immigration, no of course not. The problem is these darned barriers to criminal entry preventing them from illegally leaching off of our welfare systems. That is the true crime! Anyone who disagrees is a nazi that wants to dehydrate children to death.

By his own logic The Wall will prevent the illegals from heading into the dangerous areas, so it must be erected for their own benefit. Then the deaths will stop. And that's a good thing.

Native American culture and values are already gone and cannot be "preserved" by keeping poor immigrants out after hundreds of years of letting them in.  Its a strange reach argument coming from someone who doesn't even support native American reparations. 

It is moral high ground because I am not placing a few extra spending money over these peoples' fucking lives. People use children as tickets? I wonder why?  Could it be because of a policy making it easier for those with children to get here?  Its almost as if my idea of caring for all human life and not just "innocent children" would solve it.

If I am wandering through the desert and there is a wall across my path out of the desert, causing me to walk parallel through the desert for a longer period of time, my exposure and thus danger is increased.  The wall would make it easier for CBP to catch people on the Mexican side.  The more difficult it becomes to get here, the more money people will give to criminals to smuggle them in. The wall will be great business for tunnel building cartels and smuggling coyotes. This will exacerbate all of the border problems you have spoken of. 

Building a wall makes it more difficult for people to get here but if you think it solves any other problems at the border then you ARE simple. 

What the fuck are you talking about?



I love how you always talk to me as if I am too simple to understand your ideas. I have to break it to you, they aren't that complicated to comprehend, they are just naive and counterproductive to even your own stated goals. Let me sum it up...

THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE HERE

All the Postmodernist rationalization about the philosophical nature of who has a right to be here does not mean shit. The rest of us live in reality. The reality where we have to pay for every moronic idea that you crap out of your tiny skull, based not on logic, but on what makes you feel the most warm and fuzzy inside.

You don't give a fuck about the hell on Earth your retarded policies will create, you don't give a fuck about immigrants, you don't give a fuck about ANYONE or anything but satiating your narcissistic need to make your pathetic little empty life feel more full by pretending you are morally superior and preaching to people things that seem so simple, good, warm, and fuzzy, but in reality are a fucking nightmare. None of that matters though, what matters is you feel like you are the hero fighting the evil Nazi ICE.

You don't even know what you are arguing for, and most of the time no one else does either. You  know why? You constantly change the definitions of words to fit your very narrow and naive viewpoint. I don't care if you claim to oppose illegal immigration (we all know you are full of shit on this based on past statements), creating a rubber stamp process that just lets immigrants flood in anyway is equally unacceptable.

Again, you pretend you have some kind of moral high ground while you convince these poorly educated people all they need to do is get across that desert and the land of milk, honey, and free government resources awaits just on the other side. Why would you consider that from your position of moral superiority? Why consider all the children that are dangerously used as tickets for entry into this country to exploit polices people like you supported. Why consider that many of them are raped and sold into sex slavery after they are done being used as a free pass across the border? Nope, you are morally superior, and that is all some one else's fault.

A wall creates more danger? A wall is an inanimate stack of steel and concrete... but ok. I am sure you will give me some extremely arbitrary highly extrapolated Postmodernist "logic" to explain how a wall makes things MORE dangerous. The bill for "services you don't know who would foot the bill for?" WHAT? I know who will foot the bill. American citizens. Your lunatic collectivization of debt as if that makes it not exist any more is indicative of your overall naivete and ignorance of reality and endless obsession over what you call "morals" to the exclusion of reality itself. Realities like the reality we still have to pay that bill even if its spread out among us.

I'm saying that our policies and strict border enforcement is the main driving force of death.  If we didn't have such strict policies, these people wouldn't have to take risky paths through the desert because they would just come straight in through less secluded areas.   Having to do so much dodging, hiding, and sneaking is the dangerous behavior.   I blame it on border patrol, because if they weren't doing their job, the people wouldn't have to be out in the desert for so long in the first place. 

I am not arguing for illegal immigration or anything extreme. I am arguing that we allow them enter the country legally and seek asylum after entry. That is orderly and common international law.  Of course this is based on my feelings.  This is a human problem and anyone who tries to detach it from morals is not an ethical thinker.  That doesn't mean it isn't based on facts as well.  What facts am I missing?

We could remove the danger and save money by reducing the amount of force we present at the border.  Instead of putting 5 billion towards a wall, which will only make the situation more dangerous, we could put that money (and a lot of the money currently being used to make it dangerous) into those services you don't know who would foot the bill for.  The money is there, its just a matter of if we want to spend it saving lives or spend it putting lives in danger.