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Topic: | Nxt | Blockchain Platform | Proof of Stake | Official - page 459. (Read 941285 times)

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1004
Bank of canada define the decentralized e-money,including bitcoin, Litecoin, Peercoin, Ripple and Nxt.
http://www.bankofcanada.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Decentralize-E-Money.pdf
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
As usual, it is much wider. For instance, I have a very severe problem with the fact that stealing is not only rampant but also accepted to the point of giving bragging rights and even the inevitables "he/she deserved it" or "that would teach him/her a lesson, so it is a favor" in cryptoland. You see I am convinced that digital currencies could be an enormous leap forward, through their real asset, the blockchains, for humanity. That progress is hindered only because Cryptoland is, in reality, Crooksville...

You'll be glad to know that in the NXT community, we very actively discourage scammers. The people in this community are some of the most honest and intelligent people I have ever met online - partly because NXT attracts a different crowd, those who are interested in it's technological potential rather than short-term profits (ie. miners).

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But, like I said, let's leave it at legality. And no, the way the IPO was conducted (not that IPOs in the real world are not fraudulent too, mind you) was simply not legal.

Well, we can agree here. But let me ask you this, how is legality correlated with scams? Something being a scam is the intent to trick someone into buying something without actually providing that something, not whether it is legal to do it or not.

And as far as I know, there are some ways to side-step the legality issues when it comes to "virtual tokens", so until there is a clear legal framework with how all this should work, this really is the wild west, but that doesn't automatically make everything a scam.

Pandaisftw

An aside: Legality also depends on the jurisdiction.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1005
I have a question about forging:

To create an asset on the AE costs 1000 nxt. Where do these 1000 nxt go to?

Are they like normal tx fees and can they be forged?

Yes, it is normal fee and goes to lucky forger.
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 506
Trphy.io
Man, maybe you miss this INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY due to all this troll talk and distribution discussion, but, You should check this, SILVER GIVEAWAY!!!:



BUMP THE GOOD STUFF Smiley
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500

But the fact remains: in order to get NXT, you have to buy them through pretty much one of 20 people.

Twenty?  It started with 73 but now 7 months later it dropped to 20 people? How did that happen?  Millions of Nxt were sold in the first month in December. Dgex exchange alone distributed 500 million Nxt. I am pretty sure it's not "20" people who are selling Nxt.


hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
I have a question about forging:

To create an asset on the AE costs 1000 nxt. Where do these 1000 nxt go to?

Are they like normal tx fees and can they be forged?

Yes, normal tx fees.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
As far as the distribution problem is concerned, it seems to me like you can't really compare BTC to NXT because NXT was created all at once whereas BTC is still being created. Even though BTC mining itself is pretty concentrated and monopolized, other people have a fairer shot at obtaining "free" BTC, whereas the way things stand now, nobody has a shot at obtaining free NXT. (please don't bother mentioning faucets, I am aware of their existence).

Pretty much everything you stated is fine except for free btc. Both require an investment. You either buy Nxt or you buy mining equipment and pay electricity. In addition miners do break, pools occasionally fail to find a block and don't forget forks etc... I currently have a 50gh mining contract i purchased in December and i must say my money would have been better invested into Nxt than the btc mining roi.

But the fact remains: in order to get NXT, you have to buy them through pretty much one of 20 people. BTC can be acquired through many different means. So, if you're planning on getting NXT by buying NXT, you're directly benefiting a core group of people all the more. I'm not insinuating they might be untrustworthy, but you have to admit that if NXT takes off anywhere close to the magnitude that BTC achieved, this is going to be some massive responsibility on their part not to crash the market.

And since new bitcoin can still be mined, it isn't necessarily controlled in terms of how people can get it. Ego, it seems like the possibility of manipulation in NXT is extremely high, even higher than bitcoin.

I guess my next question is, if all NXT is currently already in existence, who is paying the forging fees? I realize there's a good chance this question has already been asked somewhere in this thread, so thank you in advance.

legendary
Activity: 2044
Merit: 1055
I have a question about forging:

To create an asset on the AE costs 1000 nxt. Where do these 1000 nxt go to?

Are they like normal tx fees and can they be forged?
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
Not only unfounded, non-existent. Because I haven accused you of such thing. At all. It may come as a shock to you but I don't accuse unless I have evidence. To my satisfaction. The people I accuse, specifically if you must know, are peddling an exchange -another one- and some sort of game-in-a-browser. You can easily identify both. And, again, none are you.

I call it as I see it. And will here and at any of those places/coins you mention if, and only if, they are running scams. As an anonymous handle I care about reputation and I won't use sock puppets -as so many of you do- nor change the account or the name. And if I make any mistakes and am proven wrong, I'll have no qualms not only admitting to it but apologizing for it.

Thank you for providing, again, the unnecessary link. Everyone here knows what scamming is. I most certainly do, semantics included or left aside. But since semantics seems to be of importance to you, let me be even more clear as to what I consider scammy and why I consider Next to be it: Anything that can be done here, without accountability, and that could never be done in the real world, for being illegal. Is that clear enough? If you need clarification, please don't hesitate to ask.

Your memory is short:

Actually, your answer is totally ridiculous and argumentative.

1.- Minimal as it is, BTC is a global phenomenon on which several -and growing- real life business are based. It has staying power proven through years of all kinds of attacks and manipulations and a clear path as to what it is, it represents and who the face of it is (The Bitcoin Foundation, with names and addresses, physical ones, as well and TAX IDs attached to it... none of which applies to NXT). Additionally, hundreds of independent organisms and enterprises do control who is mining and how much are they mining. So your point comparing NXT to BTC is utterly ridiculous, ok?

2.- You (who are you, by the way?) may have spoken to "some of these holders" or "Yoda" for all I care. It is argumentative and doesn't add any transparency to the conversation. Either put up or, kindly, shut up.

1. So, according to you, 4 years ago, you would have called Bitcoin a scam? If not, then come back in 4 years and we'll talk. (Btw, we have businesses starting up in NXT right now as we speak)

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Additionally, hundreds of independent organisms and enterprises do control who is mining and how much are they mining. So your point comparing NXT to BTC is utterly ridiculous, ok?

Prove it. (In case you missed it, this example was to show how ridiculous your arguments were, you were asking me to prove something as equally ridiculous.)

2. It doesn't matter who I am, but I am one of those who are starting a business based on the NXT platform.

Who are you?

Pandaisftw

No, according to me 5 years ago Bitcoin was a new concept for a potentially revolutionary for of payment. And I would probably would not have thought much of it except for another anarchistic pipe dream. Now if I would have given it some deeper mind, I would have probably been a converted very quickly. But there was no money to be made in bitcoin. For years. So that, in and of itself, separates it completely from NXT whose main if not only purpose was, as clearly evidenced, to make a very few amount of people a lot of quick money. By design. Proven by facts and by it's "distribution". PROVEN.

2.- No, it really doesn't matter who you are. It is clear that it is another scammer whether your scheme is already posted or not.

Me? I just trade on these scams trying to avoid getting too burned and hoping to find Bitcoin version 2 -the evolution of Bitcoin, that will correct some or all of its obvious flaws. No matter much who I am, because I am not scamming people nor pretend to be an honest anonymous individual while taking other people's money.

Think of me as someone that will expose alt scams as he sees them. And run with it.

Funnily enough, your part of your definition of "scam" doesn't particularly make sense with blockchains. Every transaction is accountable and guaranteed by the protocol. So with that out of the way, it's now a question of legality, is this correct?

Pandaisftw

Well when you face the wrath of 4 or 5 active posters, it is hard to keep track. And, by the way, I don't know and wouldn't be surprised at all if your scheme is not YET posted at the AE. But, since it is not, I cannot assume that it will so, for that, for the time being, I apologize.

Well it does. With any ledger. As a matter of fact, much more so. But that is another subject and I don't want to go into it now (need for accountability, hence non-anonymous presence and the like). But in your somewhat narrow view, of course it'll come down to legality, correct.

As usual, it is much wider. For instance, I have a very severe problem with the fact that stealing is not only rampant but also accepted to the point of giving bragging rights and even the inevitables "he/she deserved it" or "that would teach him/her a lesson, so it is a favor" in cryptoland. You see I am convinced that digital currencies could be an enormous leap forward, through their real asset, the blockchains, for humanity. That progress is hindered only because Cryptoland is, in reality, Crooksville...

But, like I said, let's leave it at legality. And no, the way the IPO was conducted (not that IPOs in the real world are not fraudulent too, mind you) was simply not legal.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
Because it's a POS coin doesn't mean you can't think about securities against abuses, POS can be improved. At a point, maybe 1 millions coins stake, big stakeholders should not have more forging power, that's all. I

This is ongoing discussion. TF is will be implemented this summer and then we will know what the final "forging" power looks like.

It's not over yet. Nxt is still being developed, especially TF.

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You can justify your system as long as you want because you're basically "sold to the cause" but nxt is highly corrupted in the actual state.

Dream on, buddy.

legendary
Activity: 952
Merit: 1000
Yeah! I hate ShroomsKit!
Man, maybe you miss this INCREDIBLE OPPORTUNITY due to all this troll talk and distribution discussion, but, You should check this, SILVER GIVEAWAY!!!:


hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 506
Trphy.io
Barrabas is on my ignore list now haha, so if you guys can stop quoting him, thanks  Cool
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Because it's a POS coin doesn't mean you can't think about securities against abuses, POS can be improved. At a point, maybe 1 millions coins stake, big stakeholders should not have more forging power, that's all. It would encourage wider distribution and average stakeholder to actually hope to forge something one day. At a point, counting on coin value itself, as for any crypto coin, should be enough combined to a decent forging rate, but not infinite rate ! Come on, 50 millons is insane !!! Not to mention it can be the same person with 3 accounts of 50 millions !

You can justify your system as long as you want because you're basically "sold to the cause" but nxt is highly corrupted in the actual state.

How is their forging rate infinite? In fact, it can be mathematically proven that every NXT provides the same ROI (or very close).

If you invest $1 and make 1% on it, are you seriously going to complain that you only made 1 cent off of a $1 investment?

How is NXT "highly corrupted"? Is there any proof that it is harmful for one person to hold 50mil (5%) NXT? Covering both possible answers: 1) Satoshi holds 15% of Bitcoins currently and 2) some bitcoin mining pools are way above 5% hashrate... Bitcoin has survived for 5 years now, so that doesn't seem to be a concern. So what other harmful effect is there?

Pandaisftw
full member
Activity: 232
Merit: 100
User; barabbas

Has been ignored.

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User; barabbas

Has been ignored.

Best post of the day.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1012
Because it's a POS coin doesn't mean you can't think about securities against abuses, POS can be improved. At a point, maybe 1 millions coins stake, big stakeholders should not have more forging power, that's all. It would encourage wider distribution and average stakeholder to actually hope to forge something one day. At a point, counting on coin value itself, as for any crypto coin, should be enough combined to a decent forging rate, but not infinite rate ! Come on, 50 millons is insane !!! Not to mention it can be the same person with 3 accounts of 50 millions !

You can justify your system as long as you want because you're basically "sold to the cause" but nxt is highly corrupted in the actual state.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Not only unfounded, non-existent. Because I haven accused you of such thing. At all. It may come as a shock to you but I don't accuse unless I have evidence. To my satisfaction. The people I accuse, specifically if you must know, are peddling an exchange -another one- and some sort of game-in-a-browser. You can easily identify both. And, again, none are you.

I call it as I see it. And will here and at any of those places/coins you mention if, and only if, they are running scams. As an anonymous handle I care about reputation and I won't use sock puppets -as so many of you do- nor change the account or the name. And if I make any mistakes and am proven wrong, I'll have no qualms not only admitting to it but apologizing for it.

Thank you for providing, again, the unnecessary link. Everyone here knows what scamming is. I most certainly do, semantics included or left aside. But since semantics seems to be of importance to you, let me be even more clear as to what I consider scammy and why I consider Next to be it: Anything that can be done here, without accountability, and that could never be done in the real world, for being illegal. Is that clear enough? If you need clarification, please don't hesitate to ask.

Your memory is short:

Actually, your answer is totally ridiculous and argumentative.

1.- Minimal as it is, BTC is a global phenomenon on which several -and growing- real life business are based. It has staying power proven through years of all kinds of attacks and manipulations and a clear path as to what it is, it represents and who the face of it is (The Bitcoin Foundation, with names and addresses, physical ones, as well and TAX IDs attached to it... none of which applies to NXT). Additionally, hundreds of independent organisms and enterprises do control who is mining and how much are they mining. So your point comparing NXT to BTC is utterly ridiculous, ok?

2.- You (who are you, by the way?) may have spoken to "some of these holders" or "Yoda" for all I care. It is argumentative and doesn't add any transparency to the conversation. Either put up or, kindly, shut up.

1. So, according to you, 4 years ago, you would have called Bitcoin a scam? If not, then come back in 4 years and we'll talk. (Btw, we have businesses starting up in NXT right now as we speak)

Quote
Additionally, hundreds of independent organisms and enterprises do control who is mining and how much are they mining. So your point comparing NXT to BTC is utterly ridiculous, ok?

Prove it. (In case you missed it, this example was to show how ridiculous your arguments were, you were asking me to prove something as equally ridiculous.)

2. It doesn't matter who I am, but I am one of those who are starting a business based on the NXT platform.

Who are you?

Pandaisftw

No, according to me 5 years ago Bitcoin was a new concept for a potentially revolutionary for of payment. And I would probably would not have thought much of it except for another anarchistic pipe dream. Now if I would have given it some deeper mind, I would have probably been a converted very quickly. But there was no money to be made in bitcoin. For years. So that, in and of itself, separates it completely from NXT whose main if not only purpose was, as clearly evidenced, to make a very few amount of people a lot of quick money. By design. Proven by facts and by it's "distribution". PROVEN.

2.- No, it really doesn't matter who you are. It is clear that it is another scammer whether your scheme is already posted or not.

Me? I just trade on these scams trying to avoid getting too burned and hoping to find Bitcoin version 2 -the evolution of Bitcoin, that will correct some or all of its obvious flaws. No matter much who I am, because I am not scamming people nor pretend to be an honest anonymous individual while taking other people's money.

Think of me as someone that will expose alt scams as he sees them. And run with it.

Funnily enough, your part of your definition of "scam" doesn't particularly make sense with blockchains. Every transaction is accountable and guaranteed by the protocol. So with that out of the way, it's now a question of legality, is this correct?

Pandaisftw
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
I have to say i'm concerned by those top 20 stakeholders, they're sneaky saying that forging fees is peanuts. At the actual activity rate maybe, because there is not many transactions/fees and lots of empty blocks. Now, imagine nxt really takes off and activity increseases, they will forge insane amount of nxt and ponzi is coming

Fees will be lowered when/if that happens.  If the big stakeholders start dumping, the prices will tank. It's not "bad" some of them are not dumpers.  They in fact played a key part in keeping Nxt on top 10 list for last 5 months. They could have dumped everything. Pocketed a million dollars and left, but didn't.

It's a "proof of stake" coin, so of course high stakeholders get to forge more. That's the key part in keeping the network safe from any shenanigans.

The other PoS coins (like peercoin and feathercoin) require central check points. Nxt doesn't.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1000
Let me be absolutely clear in this: I did not imply, in any way, that the NEXT community is full of scammers. I don't know how you could have that impression. The ones I have called so are two, specifically, that have been quite active in questioning me today and that it so happens, have schemes going on at AE that I consider quite scammy. I have found others there, that are too, in my opinion.

But neither the actions/words of those two individuals, not the scams present or future at AE can in any way be representative of the community at large.

I understand that you "fail to see what an attack would achieve" and I have addressed that position earlier. I will do it again: You admit that it would be "incredibly disruptive for a time". That is precisely the point. Deep pockets would be very easy to benefit big time from such disruption, especially if caused by them for that precise purpose.

Thank you for you polite post. I appreciate and respect your position albeit I cannot share it. And if this proves to me to be the state of ALL significant altos, I will understand even clearer why there's absolutely no progress made 5 years plus after bitcoin. And will not invest in it, of course. I do expect though to find "honestcoin" where the distribution is both fair, intelligent and by all means, compensatory for both the creators and the visionaries that invested in it... but not to the point of absolute control and, even worse, non-premeditated manipulation.

You might want to check out counterparty, mastercoin and coloredcoin, as they all have some sort of asset exchange as well - have fun calling everyone there involved with their AE scammers.

Let's be clear here: You toss around the term "scam" on basically everything (and anyone who corrects your misconceptions) - without evidence. As someone pointed out, you don't seem to know the definition of what a scam really is, so I'll link it again:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scam?s=t

Where is your proof that whatever and whoever you are accusing are running scams? As far as I know, there are legitimate assets on the exchange being run by people who truly want to make their idea succeed. By the way, I don't have anything listed on the AE, so your accusations about me are completely unfounded.

Pandaisftw

Not only unfounded, non-existent. Because I haven accused you of such thing. At all. It may come as a shock to you but I don't accuse unless I have evidence. To my satisfaction. The people I accuse, specifically if you must know, are peddling an exchange -another one- and some sort of game-in-a-browser. You can easily identify both. And, again, none are you.

I call it as I see it. And will here and at any of those places/coins you mention if, and only if, they are running scams. As an anonymous handle I care about reputation and I won't use sock puppets -as so many of you do- nor change the account or the name. And if I make any mistakes and am proven wrong, I'll have no qualms not only admitting to it but apologizing for it.

Thank you for providing, again, the unnecessary link. Everyone here knows what scamming is. I most certainly do, semantics included or left aside. But since semantics seems to be of importance to you, let me be even more clear as to what I consider scammy and why I consider Next to be it: Anything that can be done here, without accountability, and that could never be done in the real world, for being illegal. Is that clear enough? If you need clarification, please don't hesitate to ask.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 100
Let me be absolutely clear in this: I did not imply, in any way, that the NEXT community is full of scammers. I don't know how you could have that impression. The ones I have called so are two, specifically, that have been quite active in questioning me today and that it so happens, have schemes going on at AE that I consider quite scammy. I have found others there, that are too, in my opinion.

But neither the actions/words of those two individuals, not the scams present or future at AE can in any way be representative of the community at large.

I understand that you "fail to see what an attack would achieve" and I have addressed that position earlier. I will do it again: You admit that it would be "incredibly disruptive for a time". That is precisely the point. Deep pockets would be very easy to benefit big time from such disruption, especially if caused by them for that precise purpose.

Thank you for you polite post. I appreciate and respect your position albeit I cannot share it. And if this proves to me to be the state of ALL significant altos, I will understand even clearer why there's absolutely no progress made 5 years plus after bitcoin. And will not invest in it, of course. I do expect though to find "honestcoin" where the distribution is both fair, intelligent and by all means, compensatory for both the creators and the visionaries that invested in it... but not to the point of absolute control and, even worse, non-premeditated manipulation.

You might want to check out counterparty, mastercoin and coloredcoin, as they all have some sort of asset exchange as well - have fun calling everyone there involved with their AE scammers.

Let's be clear here: You toss around the term "scam" on basically everything (and anyone who corrects your misconceptions) - without evidence. As someone pointed out, you don't seem to know the definition of what a scam really is, so I'll link it again:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scam?s=t

Where is your proof that whatever and whoever you are accusing are running scams? As far as I know, there are legitimate assets on the exchange being run by people who truly want to make their idea succeed. By the way, I don't have anything listed on the AE, so your accusations about me are completely unfounded.

Pandaisftw
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1012
I have to say i'm concerned by those top 20 stakeholders, they're sneaky saying that forging fees is peanuts. At the actual activity rate maybe, because there is not many transactions/fees and lots of empty blocks. Now, imagine nxt really takes off and activity increseases, they will forge insane amount of nxt and ponzi is coming. More and more and more for big stakeholders and next to zero for the average stakeholder cause forging sucks so bad. There is no -if i may call it that way- "ceiling for forging rate" for outragous stakeholders and that is really really bad. The more i think about it, the more it appears to be one of the most unfair crypto ever and most people can't see it because they don't understand how forging works and how it is based on transactions volume. Seems like a ponzi masterplan. Highly dangerous.

I will encourage everybody to go to a nxt clone like NEM with a fair/moderate distribution system to counter forging insanity. And even NEM is not perfect -forging wise- still no ceiling for forging rate- but at least there is no outragous stakeholders.

Don't get me wrong, nxt has big innovations, client is a big step and great but its premises/bases are really really bad. Greed drives the thing so much it's almost disguting. I have nothing against greed but here it's too much. And you know i'm right.
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