Pages:
Author

Topic: NXT coin - A total scam? - page 20. (Read 49722 times)

member
Activity: 61
Merit: 10
December 24, 2013, 08:03:41 AM

The problem with premining isn't an issue of fairness, but of market stability. When an early adopter gets rich quick off a coin, and most of his net worth is concentrated in an extremely volatile asset. It serves his best interests to dump his coins, but no one knows when. Even the holder himself might not be able to predict when he needs money in a hurry. Thus the price depends upon the whims of a few isolated individuals whom no one else knows. This problem of concentration can be mitigated only with a long accumulation curve over time.

--- unless you manage to do it in such a way as to distribute it *WIDELY* right from the start.  Seriously, like to at least tens of thousands of people. Way more than you could ever get to answer a thread on this forum.



I agree. This is something I didn't consider. Do you have any ideas on how that can be done without a few people gaming the system?
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
December 24, 2013, 12:14:16 AM

The problem with premining isn't an issue of fairness, but of market stability. When an early adopter gets rich quick off a coin, and most of his net worth is concentrated in an extremely volatile asset. It serves his best interests to dump his coins, but no one knows when. Even the holder himself might not be able to predict when he needs money in a hurry. Thus the price depends upon the whims of a few isolated individuals whom no one else knows. This problem of concentration can be mitigated only with a long accumulation curve over time.

--- unless you manage to do it in such a way as to distribute it *WIDELY* right from the start.  Seriously, like to at least tens of thousands of people. Way more than you could ever get to answer a thread on this forum.

legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
December 23, 2013, 11:59:52 PM
The concept I speak of is 100% PoS.  If you know of another crypto that did that before please point to where.  When you speak of market stability which coin are you comparing it to XBT.  You think XBT price market is stable?
member
Activity: 61
Merit: 10
December 23, 2013, 11:18:21 PM

Nxt concept is proven to work then any next clone / iteration will have the exact same distribution problem as any other valuable but limited resource.

What exactly is the Nxt concept? The only innovation claimed to have been implemented here, that isn't being tried by someone else, is a migration of code to Java. However, this is not much of an innovation, nor is it an improvement. Even the scam is not innovative. If the java source code, which to the best of my knowledge has not been released were worth anything, and I doubt that it is, then someone else could indeed copy it minus the 100% premining, and would be more likely to succeed. You don't have a market lead because you don't have a real market. Peercoin, which you copied, isn't premined.


There is no point in trying to do a fair distribution.  Even if you distribute it to every person evenly for free every person will value it differently and coins

The problem with premining isn't an issue of fairness, but of market stability. When an early adopter gets rich quick off a coin, and most of his net worth is concentrated in an extremely volatile asset. It serves his best interests to dump his coins, but no one knows when. Even the holder himself might not be able to predict when he needs money in a hurry. Thus the price depends upon the whims of a few isolated individuals whom no one else knows. This problem of concentration can be mitigated only with a long accumulation curve over time.
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
December 23, 2013, 04:27:45 PM
Actually pissing myself laughing at threads like this claiming nxt to be a scam. I think you will find nxt ismt even a coin. 99% of the cloned crap coins are scams. Fact. They dont bring anything to the crypto world. Nxt on the other hand has already proven its worth over all other coins yesterday when the alias registration was released. Do your crap coins offer this? I think not. Nxt is already out performing every alt coin goin and the best thing is its still only in beta. What does that tell you. All the folks screaming scam dont have any nxt they hold a shit ton of crapcoins. Well your crap coins are bexoming ultimatley worthless. I suggest you stop scare mongering and sell your crap coins now to buy nxt. But i would say that wouldnt i being a nxt holder myself.
Newbies ignore troll threads like these and make your own mind up head over to the nxt thread and you will see how our community is working round the clock to get nxt to its full potential. The op here is just pissed his alt coins dropped half there value.   Grin

Why would anyone buy NXT now for the current price? It is worthless and it's stakeholders are sitting on most of the 100% premined coins. Anyone who buys this now is insane in my mind.

wait for the first fork without the premine story to come out and it's history.
You obviously dont know a good investment when u see it pal. Why invest in a $12,000 asic mining rig when you could invest $12000 in nxt atm and forge nxt for no elec costs. Also why would anyone continue with alt coins that have bloated block chains that will iventually destroy them selves as it becomes too big for the average user to download? And you will find that the top 70 acc that started with nxt hold around 250 million which is only a 1/4 of total nxt? Why wouldnt you want to be involved with the firat ever decentralised messaging service/exchange. Time and technology is moving on keep up pal. Nxt is cheap at the current pruce but hey you go ahead and miss the boat and buy in at 0.1btc upto you.

1. I didn't say anything in favor of usual coins /altcoins
2. I didn't say I don't have NXT / hate NXT
3. I am merely not in favor of its initial distribution
4. I have been with Bitcoin since early 2010 and have had many successful investments since. I have been watching NXT since it came out and yes I find it very interesting.

What I was saying is that, should the source of Next ever be released, a more innovative fork is going to come along that doesn't begin by distributing to only very few stakeholders holding 99% of the pre"mined" coins.



No offense and cheers! If you buy NXT now at these prices, good luck....
If Nxt concept is proven to work then any next clone / iteration will have the exact same distribution problem as any other valuable but limited resource.  Early adopters will reap bigger benefits then late adopters.  The other option is to have an auction similar to what Nxt did initially but then the price will rise to be roughly the same as Nxt and there will be no point and you might as well buy Nxt the original.  There is no point in trying to do a fair distribution.  Even if you distribute it to every person evenly for free every person will value it differently and coins will concentrate in the same big hands that want to be big hands.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
December 23, 2013, 03:27:41 PM
As long as we entertain the idea that nothing is going to be "fair" while some people get some and others do not... 

I'd take all the non-coinbase transactions on the Bitcoin blockchain having at least one unspent txout,

Then take one unspent txout from each such transaction, take the pubkey, and add it to a list.

Then create an ex nihilo transaction in the genesis block of your new coin awarding an equal amount of the altcoin to each key - allowing people with bitcoin keys to use the same keys to spend their altcoin.

Wait a year for people who haven't lost the key to their bitcoin utxo's to claim their coins, and if they don't then delete those coins from the altcoin blockchain.

It would still be 'unfair' insofar as some would randomly get more than others and might favor early bitcoin adopters, but it would be 'fair-er' in that the coins would be spread out to a large number of holders and in that no matter how much or how little bitcoin you have you get "approximately" the same amount of the new coin -- ie, it depends on number of utxo's not amount in coins.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
December 23, 2013, 02:57:58 PM
Actually pissing myself laughing at threads like this claiming nxt to be a scam. I think you will find nxt ismt even a coin. 99% of the cloned crap coins are scams. Fact. They dont bring anything to the crypto world. Nxt on the other hand has already proven its worth over all other coins yesterday when the alias registration was released. Do your crap coins offer this? I think not. Nxt is already out performing every alt coin goin and the best thing is its still only in beta. What does that tell you. All the folks screaming scam dont have any nxt they hold a shit ton of crapcoins. Well your crap coins are bexoming ultimatley worthless. I suggest you stop scare mongering and sell your crap coins now to buy nxt. But i would say that wouldnt i being a nxt holder myself.
Newbies ignore troll threads like these and make your own mind up head over to the nxt thread and you will see how our community is working round the clock to get nxt to its full potential. The op here is just pissed his alt coins dropped half there value.   Grin

Why would anyone buy NXT now for the current price? It is worthless and it's stakeholders are sitting on most of the 100% premined coins. Anyone who buys this now is insane in my mind.

wait for the first fork without the premine story to come out and it's history.
You obviously dont know a good investment when u see it pal. Why invest in a $12,000 asic mining rig when you could invest $12000 in nxt atm and forge nxt for no elec costs. Also why would anyone continue with alt coins that have bloated block chains that will iventually destroy them selves as it becomes too big for the average user to download? And you will find that the top 70 acc that started with nxt hold around 250 million which is only a 1/4 of total nxt? Why wouldnt you want to be involved with the firat ever decentralised messaging service/exchange. Time and technology is moving on keep up pal. Nxt is cheap at the current pruce but hey you go ahead and miss the boat and buy in at 0.1btc upto you.

1. I didn't say anything in favor of usual coins /altcoins
2. I didn't say I don't have NXT / hate NXT
3. I am merely not in favor of its initial distribution
4. I have been with Bitcoin since early 2010 and have had many successful investments since. I have been watching NXT since it came out and yes I find it very interesting.

What I was saying is that, should the source of Next ever be released, a more innovative fork is going to come along that doesn't begin by distributing to only very few stakeholders holding 99% of the pre"mined" coins.



No offense and cheers! If you buy NXT now at these prices, good luck....
Thank you for your good will wishes. 1 question how would you have distributed all the coins fairly?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 23, 2013, 02:30:31 PM
That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I was always thinking that source code of Bitcoin wasn't available to ordinary people from day 1. Now I suspect I was wrong, could u prove me wrong? Also I'd like to see the very 1st version of the source code to make sure it's not the one released in 2009.

What do you mean not the one released in 2009? Bitcoin v0.1 (first version available to the public at least) was released in January 2009 along with the source.

This was the release announcement Satoshi made on a mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg10152.html

I'm not aware of any earlier versions, and if there was one, it wasn't released publicly.

OK. Sorry guys, looks like my argument was beaten.

PS: Let's wait for 3rd of Jan then.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
December 23, 2013, 02:24:30 PM
That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I was always thinking that source code of Bitcoin wasn't available to ordinary people from day 1. Now I suspect I was wrong, could u prove me wrong? Also I'd like to see the very 1st version of the source code to make sure it's not the one released in 2009.

What do you mean not the one released in 2009? Bitcoin v0.1 (first version available to the public at least) was released in January 2009 along with the source.

This was the release announcement Satoshi made on a mailing list: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg10152.html

I'm not aware of any earlier versions, and if there was one, it wasn't released publicly.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
December 23, 2013, 02:17:35 PM
Sorry, this is just wrong.  I have an archive of the Bitcoin source from November 2008 -- IE, from 3 months before it went live.  And during that 3 months, Satoshi was working on it *with* the assistance of several serious cryptographers. Updates of the code were available every day.  

You can't just lie like that.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong. Publish the most earliest source plz.

Shoot me an email address, or get me access to the bitcoin wiki, and I will.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 23, 2013, 02:12:06 PM
That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I was always thinking that source code of Bitcoin wasn't available to ordinary people from day 1. Now I suspect I was wrong, could u prove me wrong? Also I'd like to see the very 1st version of the source code to make sure it's not the one released in 2009.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
December 23, 2013, 02:07:17 PM
That's not what I meant.  In fact, I like the ideas behind Nxt.  But I just won't tolerate people lying about Satoshi and how he developed Bitcoin -- he did NOT hold it closed-source until after release, as claimed.

I've been considering buying some NXT, because I believe in the proof-of-stake model and I can see how it is pretty easy to develop the other mentioned features on top of it.  Also because the value would jump dramatically after release if the source code turns out to be okay. But I absolutely cannot run the client, because it has these four major strokes against it....

First, it's closed-source.  Closed-source, in itself, doesn't scream 'scam.'  But closed-source means you have to trust the developer, or trust people who've audited the code, because you can't trust source code you can't see.

Second, the developer is anonymous.  Anonymous developer, in itself, doesn't scream 'scam.'  But it means you have to trust the source code, or people who've audited the code, because you can't trust a developer whom you can't serve a subpeona on.

Third, the people who've audited the code have no history, no reputation, no known qualifications.  That in itself doesn't scream 'scam', but it means you have to trust the developer or trust the source code, because you can't trust auditors whom you don't know to be qualified.

Fourth, it's financial software.  Financial software in itself doesn't scream 'scam' but it does mean you absolutely cannot run it without completely trusting it because if you do otherwise then sooner or later a scam will take your entire life savings and/or livelihood.

So, if I acquire Nxt prior to the source code being released and audited by people I have reasons to trust, it's going to be on a 'burner box' -- install the OS, put it on its own subnet with no connections to other local machines, run the software long enough to generate a key, do the transfer,  and then save the wallet to a USB key marked 'DANGEROUS' with red nail polish, so you won't ever put it into anything except another 'burner box'.  Then shut it down and wipe the hard drive. It makes it kind of a pain in the ass to deal with.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
December 23, 2013, 01:57:38 PM
Sorry, this is just wrong.  I have an archive of the Bitcoin source from November 2008 -- IE, from 3 months before it went live.  And during that 3 months, Satoshi was working on it *with* the assistance of several serious cryptographers. Updates of the code were available every day.  

You can't just lie like that.

Oh, maybe I'm wrong. Publish the most earliest source plz.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
December 23, 2013, 01:34:16 PM
wait for the first fork without the premine story to come out and it's history.
That'll be a little hard to do without the source code being released first, ya? Don't you think someone would have done it by now if it were that easy? I agree the premine situation wasn't perfect but at least it was fair and open to the community.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
December 23, 2013, 01:10:13 PM
The bitcoin source was released, inspected by people with the know how and no major flaw found - hence BTC is relatively stable and I have trust in it. I trust that it isn't a cheap badly written piece of crap that will get ditched and leave every investor with nothing.

Nxt follows in Bitcoin footsteps. Bitcoin wasn't open source from Day 1. Care to beat this argument? Smiley

Sorry, this is just wrong.  I have an archive of the Bitcoin source from November 2008 -- IE, from 3 months before it went live.  And during that 3 months, Satoshi was working on it *with* the assistance of several serious cryptographers. Updates of the code were available every day.  

You can't just lie like that.




Just think as nxt as what it atm beta. Source code out jan 3rd 2014 then you can say what you like. Atm ppl are very interested in it hence the buying and selling so early
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
December 23, 2013, 01:07:24 PM
The bitcoin source was released, inspected by people with the know how and no major flaw found - hence BTC is relatively stable and I have trust in it. I trust that it isn't a cheap badly written piece of crap that will get ditched and leave every investor with nothing.

Nxt follows in Bitcoin footsteps. Bitcoin wasn't open source from Day 1. Care to beat this argument? Smiley

Sorry, this is just wrong.  I have an archive of the Bitcoin source from November 2008 -- IE, from 3 months before it went live.  And during that 3 months, Satoshi was working on it *with* the assistance of several serious cryptographers. Updates of the code were available every day.  

You can't just lie like that.



member
Activity: 118
Merit: 10
December 23, 2013, 01:06:45 PM
I bought $6 worth of nxt. Feel really, really weird about it.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
December 23, 2013, 01:05:04 PM
I found the lack of available source code at launch to be extremely suspect. That it isn't based on Bitcoin is all the more reason for the devs to be transparent as possible. Who cares if someone clones it - there were plenty of clones released when Bitcoin was still relatively small and that didn't hurt it.

At any rate, I find NXT intriguing but I'm not buying any until the source is released.
That my friend is how to go about telling ppl your thoughts. U didnt instantly shout scam from the roof tops like other that are unsure of this new tech. You will be pleased to know that the core source code will be released on the 3rd january 2014 hope to see u in the community.  Please do follow the official nxt thread updated info for all the answers you require
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
December 23, 2013, 01:00:06 PM
I found the lack of available source code at launch to be extremely suspect. That it isn't based on Bitcoin is all the more reason for the devs to be transparent as possible. Who cares if someone clones it - there were plenty of clones released when Bitcoin was still relatively small and that didn't hurt it.

At any rate, I find NXT intriguing but I'm not buying any until the source is released.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
December 23, 2013, 12:55:24 PM
There is no proof that this coin is anything more than a cheap imitation sold for 21 BTC and now trying to be sold for 6000 BTC.

Would the source code help u to come to a conclusion if it's imitation or not?

Yes, of course, the full and uncut source code proving these advanced features and an actual difference from BTC would prove me wrong. And I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Judging by the talk over at nxt forum, it does seem that the source code isn't going to be released though, not fully. That almost solidifies the doubt for me now.

As I said over on Nxt forum, if I wanted to try and scam people out of BTC, it would be easy to create a really basic coin and really basic interface (full of bugs) with the promise of so much more hidden in the source code, all to come in the not to distant future.

But, before it comes, let's sell off this coin at a rate equal to 6000 BTC for the whole lot.

The little bit of source code there is will be released in dribs and drabs to try to keep interest alive whilst the inital stock is sold.

Once interest fades or anger arises from the lack of transparency, it's too late, there will have been hundreds of BTC invested, the creator has had his money, everyone else loses theirs as the coin collapses.

well, miztaziggy. looks like you have some experiences in this.
your detailed presentation here how it *could* be, tells more about *you* than you think.
hopefully you don't get the sources to early into your hands.


miztaziggy is simply asking questions and raising concerns. what is wrong with that?

if you got solid stuff, why don't you lay your arguments here instead of bashing?
Why label a thread scam if you are unsure of the subject you are labelling scam?
Pages:
Jump to: