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Topic: Off-Topic - page 13. (Read 384416 times)

full member
Activity: 176
Merit: 100
November 12, 2013, 12:21:07 PM
What you don't have any money to refund?
Well I'll just take ur daughter instead, she'll fetch a pretty penny at market
Daddy No!
Be a good girl and go with the man maria  Cry

Please don't trust this person (why would you given the above post).  Seems to have burnt this account for $70 they took from me.  No escrow, didn't think someone would go to so much trouble for $70.

Retracted, other issues caused no communication.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
November 12, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
Actually taking it back is called withdrawing the bankruptcy petition and is rather easy.

100% correct.

I did just that once to get out of a real estate deal that I (Too late almost!) determined was a fraud and was going to cost me around USD $250K with no return.

I told the "partners" to let me out of the deal or I would get out on my own.

They told me to stuff it.

I said, "OK!" and the next day armed with a money order for USD $195 and a hand-written emergency petition, went to the federal courthouse in Kansas City and filed for a Chapter 7.

The filing of course locked up all pending and future transactions of the ripoff partnership and sent the other partners screaming into the night.  They whined that my filing was preventing them from doing any business, which of course it was and that was my intent.

I let them spin out and sweat for a few days and then told them to let me out of the partnership and give me my money back, which they did quite willingly as to not have done would have cost them everything.

The next day I simply withdrew the petition and stopped off at the bar on the way home from the court house for lunch and drinks.

Hardball they call that sort of thing and I can be very, very good at it.

My $.02.

Smiley
legendary
Activity: 896
Merit: 1006
First 100% Liquid Stablecoin Backed by Gold
November 12, 2013, 03:03:23 AM
Actually taking it back is called withdrawing the bankruptcy petition and is rather easy.
gbx
full member
Activity: 226
Merit: 100
November 11, 2013, 08:38:26 PM
You all realize Terrahash never said they intend to file bankruptcy.

This whole long list of threads going back and forth on minutia really is really just an unnecessary tangent at this point.

As I've said earlier.  Terrahash doesn't want the legal fight against PayPal and is likely waiting for the dust to settle from that part of the fiasco before attempting to make anything else right. 

With that said, have any of the bitcoin tracers been able to determine if they may have the coins or not?

And what about Cloudhashing...  talk about debt.

What with Terrahash being faced with multiple lawsuits which would cost a small fortune to defend and a bankruptcy filing only costing a few grand, what do you think will happen?

Use your common sense.

My $.02.

Sad

Terrahash has both the funds of Cloudhashing and the crowd source funds.  They have not refunded a soul yet.

They also haven't filed bankruptcy or stated their intentions to do so.

Obviously, they stated the Yifu refund was cashed immediately.  But, why would you do that when you don't have a bank account to put the funds into?  Leave it at CampBX?

Perhaps comingling funds with personal accounts?

I lay odds they have the coins in a wallet and are watching the surging price of bitcoin.  They'll gamble with OPM (other peoples money) and come out ahead.  Refund half to those who won't squeak too loudly, settle out of court on the lawsuits, and keep the rest.

Their biggest variable, as I've said, is PayPal.  And they don't want to refund everyone that purchased through PayPal 100 percent.  But the chargebacks keep coming.

My common sense tells me they don't want to lose control of their assets, given the fact that the situation, to some, might look fraudulent.  Bankruptcy will be the last thing they do as you can always file for it, but it's hard to back out of.
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
November 11, 2013, 08:19:04 PM

......

" PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process."

Sorry. This isn't Holland Dutch justice.

Nowhere does it say anything about confiscating a charge back of a customer for a trustee in a court bankruptcy case. This is more likely related to when TH had their Paypal account frozen. And if they are sued it could be held up again for garnishment. Their were no refunds.

I may be misreading you but I got my refund via paypal, I am not sure what you are suggesting here.

Gotcha, thanks for clarifying.

Their is a legal difference between TH voluntarily giving you a refund. Compared to a forced refund (charge back) (reversal) via Paypal or Credit Card.

If you have a Paypal account and are doing something illegal, have a judgment against you, didn't deliver a product etc etc etc. They can freeze your account. This doesn't apply to a customer that has received a charge back.    

If you were a relative or friend etc etc of TH and received a refund while nobody else did. Then a court could take the money back from you. But this isn't the case.  
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
November 11, 2013, 08:01:28 PM

......

" PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process."

Sorry. This isn't Holland Dutch justice.

Nowhere does it say anything about confiscating a charge back of a customer for a trustee in a court bankruptcy case. This is more likely related to when TH had their Paypal account frozen. And if they are sued it could be held up again for garnishment. Their were no refunds.

I may be misreading you but I got my refund via paypal, I am not sure what you are suggesting here.


Their is a legal difference between TH voluntarily giving you a refund. Compared to a forced refund (charge back) (reversal) via Paypal or Credit Card.

If you have a Paypal account and are doing something illegal, have a judgment against you, didn't deliver a product etc etc etc. They can freeze your account. This doesn't apply to a customer that has received a charge back.    

If you were a relative or friend etc etc of TH and received a refund while nobody else did. Then a court could take the money back from you. But this isn't the case.  
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
November 11, 2013, 07:33:06 PM

......

" PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process."

Sorry. This isn't Holland Dutch justice.

Nowhere does it say anything about confiscating a charge back of a customer for a trustee in a court bankruptcy case. This is more likely related to when TH had their Paypal account frozen. And if they are sued it could be held up again for garnishment. Their were no refunds.

I may be misreading you but I got my refund via paypal, I am not sure what you are suggesting here.
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
November 11, 2013, 06:39:29 PM
Although I wrote that I was out of this thread, I will weigh in one last time to explain just how court ordered chargebacks work.

I'm not going to tell you a pack of lies; I'm only going to tell you how things work in the real world.

First, Paypal does not, repeat DOES NOT dispute court orders.  Not now, not everl NEVER! It's just not worth the cost to them.  Right in the Terms of Service, it is as well.

Now, let us assume for the sake of discussion that Terrahash has filed a bankruptacy proceeding and that all transactions within 90 days of that filing are being examined by the Court Trustee.

Now the Court Trustee, he's tokin' on a number and diggin' on the radio while he looks at these transactions, finds a few he doesn't like, looks out over the bow of the ship that is Paypal and says, "I'm gonna move you Baby!" and he does, right into the Terrahash Paypal account, instigating a chargeback which Paypal will immediately pay to the Court but wait.....................................

The Terrahash bank accounts are either empty or have been seized already by the Trustee and there is no money to be had from that quarter.

Now Paypal, being the Evil Empire of payment processing is not going to stand for this or any other kind of loss so the Paypal guy, who is also tokin' on a number and diggin' on the radio takes a look around and sends a chargeback to the person who received the refund payment.

BANG!

The entire amount of the funds paid to the Court is now charged back to the person(s) who received the refund in the first place, zapped by Paypal from either the associated bank account or credit card.

This is how it works and the ship that is the Paypal account of the person who received the refund acts as though it has hit an iceberg and goes right on down!

If the person wants to fight the chargeback, it will be up to that person to secure legal counsel, which counsel will require a hefty retainer which number might even exceed the amount of the chargeback and there will be little hope of recovery of the funds.

Now there is a way to protect yourself against such chargebacks but the method will result in the loss of your Paypal account, which is probably going to happen anyway, so no real damage done.

Here are the steps you would take:

(1) Make NO changes to the Paypal account itself so as to not draw unwanted attention to what you are doing.


(2) Clean out your Paypal account, leaving only USD $1 in it.  If you sent the money from the Paypal account to your bank account, wait until the money hits the bank account before proceeding to Steps 3 and 4.

(3) Close the bank account associated with the Paypal account but don't tell Paypal.  They will not know unless and until they try to charge back to that bank account.

(4) Cancel any and all credit or ATM cards associated with the Paypal account but again, don't tell Paypal.  They'll figure it out if they try to charge back.

Now if Paypal does attempt a chargeback and you have followed the above steps, you are at least temporarily immune to chargebacks.  Your Paypal account will be locked and Paypal will email you to death to try to get you to update your account with new info.

Ignore them.

Following this plan will get you smooth sailing for at least a while and protect your hard earned funds from what amounts to legalised theft due to the actions of Terrahash & Co.

If you are lucky and depending on the amount involved, Paypal will only send you nasty letters and eventually go away, turning the bad account over to a collection agency.

If you are not so lucky and the amount is large enough, Paypal will instigate legal action against you but that scenario is not really very likely as such actions are often just not worth the time and expence involved.

My $.02.

Wink

P.S.: Apologies to Jamie Brockett.




Unless and until you can provide precedence I'm considering this advice tripe.

Okey, dokey!

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#10

Here ya go!:

"10.4 Actions by PayPal - Court Orders or Other Legal Process.

PayPal, in its sole discretion, may take various actions including placing a hold, Reserve, or other limitation on your Account or the funds in it and/or releasing any or all of your funds in the event it receives notice of a court order or other legal process that restricts the use of or access to your funds or requires their release. PayPal will give notice of a hold, Reserve, or limitation it makes to comply with a court order or other legal process, unless the court order or other process directs that PayPal not provide you notice, in which case the court order or other process supersedes any notice obligation PayPal has undertaken or agreed to under the terms of this Agreement. PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process. Holds, Reserves, or limitations on your account that are placed in response to a court order or other legal process may be maintained longer than 180 Days. PayPal will decide in its sole discretion the appropriate scope of a hold, Reserve, and/or limitation to assure compliance with a court order or other legal process.

Additionally, in the event PayPal receives notice of a garnishment or equivalent legal process directing the restraint of funds in your Account or directing payment of funds from your Account to the court or another third party, PayPal may limit your Account and hold the funds in it for up to 180 days, and may disburse funds from your Account, as needed, for the purpose of resolving any Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal."

Take special note of this:

" PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process."

Sorry. This isn't Holland Dutch justice.

Nowhere does it say anything about confiscating a charge back of a customer for a trustee in a court bankruptcy case. This is more likely related to when TH had their Paypal account frozen. And if they are sued it could be held up again for garnishment. Their were no refunds.
sr. member
Activity: 389
Merit: 250
November 11, 2013, 06:29:41 PM
Quote
I have seen just such actions in a case recently filed by a friend who had sold off a collection of vintage cars prior to filing.

The Court Trustee went out and retrieved each and every of those cars, leaving the purchasers high and dry with no recourse.

The cars were subsequently sold at a bankruptcy auction, with the proceeds going into thepool of  funds to repay creditiors.

I bought one of those cars from the Court for much less than the original seller had wanted.
Cheesy

This example is unrelated to our situation. This is an example of someone hiding assets before filing Chapter 7. Has nothing to do with us the customer. The creditors ended up with the money in this case anyway. And guess who the creditors are in our case? Paypal and the Credit Card companies. They will be the first to get back their money and we are already paid by them.

Nope.

Read my post again.

No one hid any assets at all.  The transactions were open and no effort was made to conceal them.  The proceeds were even put towards the debts by the debtor but that made no difference to the Trustee who reclaimed the cars and dumped them into an auction as the Trustee found that the transactions had been completed in anticipation of bankruptcy.

Dealing with the bankruptcy court Trustee is a whole new world and is a game played by the Trustee's rules, some of which are made up as the Trustee goes along.

Good luck!

My $.02.

Wink

We can't tell exactly what happened in the case from what you posted. But I would bet the cars were sold to friends and relatives for a lot less than they were worth just before bankruptcy.

Unrelated to our situation. And you have still failed to come up with any case where a charge back by Paypal or a Credit Card, from a customer was confiscated by a court action. 
hero member
Activity: 630
Merit: 500
November 11, 2013, 06:21:30 PM
Update 11/9/2013: TerraHash is still in business, we have not filed for bankruptcy yet. The refund from Yifu was cashed immediately back then, we did not make any profits from the recent surge in BTC prices. Again, we are still committed to provide as much refund as possible. I will update again in a couple days on how we are going to proceed with that.

"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"


Heheh, Brilliantly funny, because it's true. Thanks for the laugh.
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
November 11, 2013, 05:33:29 PM
Update 11/9/2013: TerraHash is still in business, we have not filed for bankruptcy yet. The refund from Yifu was cashed immediately back then, we did not make any profits from the recent surge in BTC prices. Again, we are still committed to provide as much refund as possible. I will update again in a couple days on how we are going to proceed with that.

"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"^"I will update again in a couple days"
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
November 11, 2013, 01:33:33 PM
You all realize Terrahash never said they intend to file bankruptcy.

This whole long list of threads going back and forth on minutia really is really just an unnecessary tangent at this point.

As I've said earlier.  Terrahash doesn't want the legal fight against PayPal and is likely waiting for the dust to settle from that part of the fiasco before attempting to make anything else right. 

With that said, have any of the bitcoin tracers been able to determine if they may have the coins or not?

And what about Cloudhashing...  talk about debt.

What with Terrahash being faced with multiple lawsuits which would cost a small fortune to defend and a bankruptcy filing only costing a few grand, what do you think will happen?

Use your common sense.

My $.02.

Sad
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
November 11, 2013, 12:31:35 PM
Going out of business != Bankruptcy.

You can retire and close your business by going out of business.

Not if your business is loaded with tons of debts!
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1000
November 11, 2013, 12:23:52 PM
So they have mentioned that they will attempt to pay people back?  If that is the case I apologize for intimating that they wouldn't.  I haven't seen a post by them for so long I made an assumption..

They mentioned a portion.  But they have had more then enough time to start the process, find 1 person who has got a TH refund direct from them in past month.... and you will suprise me.
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
decentralizedhashing.com
November 11, 2013, 10:01:50 AM
So they have mentioned that they will attempt to pay people back?  If that is the case I apologize for intimating that they wouldn't.  I haven't seen a post by them for so long I made an assumption..
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 500
Crypto Investor ;) @ Farmed Account Hunter
November 11, 2013, 09:52:26 AM
You all realize Terrahash never said they intend to file bankruptcy.

What else would "go out of business" mean?

Some events happened last week, that have forced us to make a decision to go out of business.


Going out of business != Bankruptcy.

You can retire and close your business by going out of business.
legendary
Activity: 3878
Merit: 1193
November 11, 2013, 09:47:41 AM
You all realize Terrahash never said they intend to file bankruptcy.

What else would "go out of business" mean?

Some events happened last week, that have forced us to make a decision to go out of business.
gbx
full member
Activity: 226
Merit: 100
November 11, 2013, 09:24:59 AM
You all realize Terrahash never said they intend to file bankruptcy.

This whole long list of threads going back and forth on minutia really is really just an unnecessary tangent at this point.

As I've said earlier.  Terrahash doesn't want the legal fight against PayPal and is likely waiting for the dust to settle from that part of the fiasco before attempting to make anything else right. 

With that said, have any of the bitcoin tracers been able to determine if they may have the coins or not?

And what about Cloudhashing...  talk about debt.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
November 11, 2013, 07:54:49 AM
Although I wrote that I was out of this thread, I will weigh in one last time to explain just how court ordered chargebacks work.

I'm not going to tell you a pack of lies; I'm only going to tell you how things work in the real world.

First, Paypal does not, repeat DOES NOT dispute court orders.  Not now, not everl NEVER! It's just not worth the cost to them.  Right in the Terms of Service, it is as well.

Now, let us assume for the sake of discussion that Terrahash has filed a bankruptacy proceeding and that all transactions within 90 days of that filing are being examined by the Court Trustee.

Now the Court Trustee, he's tokin' on a number and diggin' on the radio while he looks at these transactions, finds a few he doesn't like, looks out over the bow of the ship that is Paypal and says, "I'm gonna move you Baby!" and he does, right into the Terrahash Paypal account, instigating a chargeback which Paypal will immediately pay to the Court but wait.....................................

The Terrahash bank accounts are either empty or have been seized already by the Trustee and there is no money to be had from that quarter.

Now Paypal, being the Evil Empire of payment processing is not going to stand for this or any other kind of loss so the Paypal guy, who is also tokin' on a number and diggin' on the radio takes a look around and sends a chargeback to the person who received the refund payment.

BANG!

The entire amount of the funds paid to the Court is now charged back to the person(s) who received the refund in the first place, zapped by Paypal from either the associated bank account or credit card.

This is how it works and the ship that is the Paypal account of the person who received the refund acts as though it has hit an iceberg and goes right on down!

If the person wants to fight the chargeback, it will be up to that person to secure legal counsel, which counsel will require a hefty retainer which number might even exceed the amount of the chargeback and there will be little hope of recovery of the funds.

Now there is a way to protect yourself against such chargebacks but the method will result in the loss of your Paypal account, which is probably going to happen anyway, so no real damage done.

Here are the steps you would take:

(1) Make NO changes to the Paypal account itself so as to not draw unwanted attention to what you are doing.


(2) Clean out your Paypal account, leaving only USD $1 in it.  If you sent the money from the Paypal account to your bank account, wait until the money hits the bank account before proceeding to Steps 3 and 4.

(3) Close the bank account associated with the Paypal account but don't tell Paypal.  They will not know unless and until they try to charge back to that bank account.

(4) Cancel any and all credit or ATM cards associated with the Paypal account but again, don't tell Paypal.  They'll figure it out if they try to charge back.

Now if Paypal does attempt a chargeback and you have followed the above steps, you are at least temporarily immune to chargebacks.  Your Paypal account will be locked and Paypal will email you to death to try to get you to update your account with new info.

Ignore them.

Following this plan will get you smooth sailing for at least a while and protect your hard earned funds from what amounts to legalised theft due to the actions of Terrahash & Co.

If you are lucky and depending on the amount involved, Paypal will only send you nasty letters and eventually go away, turning the bad account over to a collection agency.

If you are not so lucky and the amount is large enough, Paypal will instigate legal action against you but that scenario is not really very likely as such actions are often just not worth the time and expence involved.

My $.02.

Wink

P.S.: Apologies to Jamie Brockett.




Unless and until you can provide precedence I'm considering this advice tripe.

Okey, dokey!

https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#10

Here ya go!:

"10.4 Actions by PayPal - Court Orders or Other Legal Process.

PayPal, in its sole discretion, may take various actions including placing a hold, Reserve, or other limitation on your Account or the funds in it and/or releasing any or all of your funds in the event it receives notice of a court order or other legal process that restricts the use of or access to your funds or requires their release. PayPal will give notice of a hold, Reserve, or limitation it makes to comply with a court order or other legal process, unless the court order or other process directs that PayPal not provide you notice, in which case the court order or other process supersedes any notice obligation PayPal has undertaken or agreed to under the terms of this Agreement. PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process. Holds, Reserves, or limitations on your account that are placed in response to a court order or other legal process may be maintained longer than 180 Days. PayPal will decide in its sole discretion the appropriate scope of a hold, Reserve, and/or limitation to assure compliance with a court order or other legal process.

Additionally, in the event PayPal receives notice of a garnishment or equivalent legal process directing the restraint of funds in your Account or directing payment of funds from your Account to the court or another third party, PayPal may limit your Account and hold the funds in it for up to 180 days, and may disburse funds from your Account, as needed, for the purpose of resolving any Dispute, Claim, Chargeback, or Reversal."

Take special note of this:

" PayPal has no obligation to contest or appeal from any such order or process."
sr. member
Activity: 392
Merit: 250
♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫
November 11, 2013, 07:29:54 AM
Although I wrote that I was out of this thread, I will weigh in one last time to explain just how court ordered chargebacks work.

I'm not going to tell you a pack of lies; I'm only going to tell you how things work in the real world.

First, Paypal does not, repeat DOES NOT dispute court orders.  Not now, not everl NEVER! It's just not worth the cost to them.  Right in the Terms of Service, it is as well.

Now, let us assume for the sake of discussion that Terrahash has filed a bankruptacy proceeding and that all transactions within 90 days of that filing are being examined by the Court Trustee.

Now the Court Trustee, he's tokin' on a number and diggin' on the radio while he looks at these transactions, finds a few he doesn't like, looks out over the bow of the ship that is Paypal and says, "I'm gonna move you Baby!" and he does, right into the Terrahash Paypal account, instigating a chargeback which Paypal will immediately pay to the Court but wait.....................................

The Terrahash bank accounts are either empty or have been seized already by the Trustee and there is no money to be had from that quarter.

Now Paypal, being the Evil Empire of payment processing is not going to stand for this or any other kind of loss so the Paypal guy, who is also tokin' on a number and diggin' on the radio takes a look around and sends a chargeback to the person who received the refund payment.

BANG!

The entire amount of the funds paid to the Court is now charged back to the person(s) who received the refund in the first place, zapped by Paypal from either the associated bank account or credit card.

This is how it works and the ship that is the Paypal account of the person who received the refund acts as though it has hit an iceberg and goes right on down!

If the person wants to fight the chargeback, it will be up to that person to secure legal counsel, which counsel will require a hefty retainer which number might even exceed the amount of the chargeback and there will be little hope of recovery of the funds.

Now there is a way to protect yourself against such chargebacks but the method will result in the loss of your Paypal account, which is probably going to happen anyway, so no real damage done.

Here are the steps you would take:

(1) Make NO changes to the Paypal account itself so as to not draw unwanted attention to what you are doing.


(2) Clean out your Paypal account, leaving only USD $1 in it.  If you sent the money from the Paypal account to your bank account, wait until the money hits the bank account before proceeding to Steps 3 and 4.

(3) Close the bank account associated with the Paypal account but don't tell Paypal.  They will not know unless and until they try to charge back to that bank account.

(4) Cancel any and all credit or ATM cards associated with the Paypal account but again, don't tell Paypal.  They'll figure it out if they try to charge back.

Now if Paypal does attempt a chargeback and you have followed the above steps, you are at least temporarily immune to chargebacks.  Your Paypal account will be locked and Paypal will email you to death to try to get you to update your account with new info.

Ignore them.

Following this plan will get you smooth sailing for at least a while and protect your hard earned funds from what amounts to legalised theft due to the actions of Terrahash & Co.

If you are lucky and depending on the amount involved, Paypal will only send you nasty letters and eventually go away, turning the bad account over to a collection agency.

If you are not so lucky and the amount is large enough, Paypal will instigate legal action against you but that scenario is not really very likely as such actions are often just not worth the time and expence involved.

My $.02.

Wink

P.S.: Apologies to Jamie Brockett.




Unless and until you can provide precedence I'm considering this advice tripe.
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