Topic: Off-Topic - page 94. (Read 384416 times)

... Boycott future Avalon products.
... Report Avalon / Bitsyncom to the FTC.

And do what you need to do to protect your own interests. Remember make sure to put a hurt on Avalon and Yifu for the lack of communication and his failure to live up to his NO BS terms and conditions of which NO REFUNDS is certainly against FTC rules. If you can hold out and help out the DIY builders that be great but one has to really put the pressure on Yifu and where possible support the DIY people. They will be able to move on to the next chip if they can scrape through... but again it is a personal call on that.

I've only seen (although it's quite possible I've missed others) 1 person advocating en masse refunds, and I don't know that will have much impact on people's decisions.  For my part, I've been very careful to say I'm not telling anyone else to stick it out or get a refund.  Yes, I have been vocal about the things I feel or flat out know TH has done wrong and I've tried to be clear as to why I feel this is no longer a viable transaction; but I've done so for the sake of putting the information out there, both factual and opinion, not to try to sway people to jump ship but to let them take the information and do with it what they will - ignore it, consider it, interpret it etc.

Fair statements Silvas.

I would note that I did tell people who wanted to get a refund to go ahead and do it. I'm just against people who are advocating that everyone refund en masse.  

+1
One reason for people promoting refunds may be better position in queue for themselves

Everyone that is on the fence about this: don't listen to ANYONE.  Do not listen to anyone telling you to get a refund, and do not listen to anyone telling you to stick it out.
Make the decision for yourself based upon the information out there, what you feel it means for you, your risk tolerance and what you feel is right.

Look this is a business transaction, and should be treated as such.  You were offered the chance to purchase a piece of equipment for a certain price, and you decided to avail yourself of that opportunity.
Bringing emotions into a business transaction is bad business.  A business transaction should be conducted with logic and information - information on the past, present, and indicators of where the future is likely to go.
TH did not do this out of the goodness of their hearts, or to do the community a favor, or any other such emotion based reason.  They did it to make a profit.
You did not purchase to help TH make money, or out of the goodness of your heart, or to help someone else get a paycheck.  You did it because you wanted merchandise, and the price was acceptable to you.

You started out the transaction on a logical basis, keep it that way and make your own decisions.  Don't allow anyone, regardless of which side they're on, tell you which to do.  It's not their place to do so.
It's funny that the pro-th side bitches about a few people saying people should get refunds, and then does the same bloody thing for their side.

I'm certainly not posting to try and get people to get mass refunds. I agree that the delays currently are the sole fault of Bitsyncom, and I also agree 100%, that it is wise of TH not to order extra parts now with the questionable timing of the chips, assuming they can get the parts quickly, as they stated. The things that I find fault with TH have to do with their track record to date of saying something they will be doing, and never having that happen, which frankly, speaks volumes about trust.

You see the negativity as whining, and I see the people that don't acknowledge issues and attack those that bring them up as cheerleading. You detest the negativity, and I detest the cheerleading, so we dance. You did admit that you are trying to protect your investment, and I applaud your honesty, as it's apparent that is the motive. However, you don't represent TH, so speaking on their behalf is not something you need to do, unless you want to keep propagating this crap.

Nobody is forcing TH into Bankruptcy by posting valid issues, in fact if they were planning on being around after this initial batch, it would be wise to make improvements, or at least explain why it is happening. We'd all love to hear that it is because they are too busy working on the technical details, but then we see a rather arrogant metaphor from them, when it could have been so much simpler to explain why this is a problem. I don't want to see TH out of business, I want to see them answering their customer support tickets. A company with problems doesn't fix them by ignoring customer issues. I already stated, I get why they ignore the refund requests, but why the address changes, and every other minor question? They setup this support system, why would someone have to call 90 times to reach them, or show up in person to address a simple account issue? TH comes here admits it, says they are going to improve, and I say actions would speak louder than words. Answer those support tickets on hosting, addresses, status issues, etc. and put this to rest, instead of having the cheerleaders on the forum act as blockers.

If refunds are going to force bankruptcy, I guess they should have worked on keeping customers happy by responding to the legit requests and follow through with things they say they will do. I'm not supporting those that called for pictures every step of the way, but in the garbage spewed from both the cheerleaders and the people complaining about TH, there are legit concerns.

Not clear on how this pointless back and forth helps your cause of protecting your investment. Every time I see you guys attacking a valid concern, or trying to imply people concerned about getting their money back shouldn't have invested in this in the first place, I'll be replying and clarifying the incorrect points. Keep your "badges" going guys, I don't need anything for calling out people that make TH sound like a victim.

And I reiterate, I'm not an investor in this particular venture, I'm a customer. I didn't buy shares in their company as I did ASICminer, I bought their product. Did I invest in Cisco when I buy a network switch that runs the equipment to make me money? What if I'm buying stocks through that switch?

And for the record, you'll note that I didn't say that you shouldn't get a refund. I just said that you should go ahead and get your refund. Just don't try to sway everyone else to join you. I am very displeased with the delay, but I know it's not Th's fault. People can say that they should have had every part in stock because the chips could have arrived early. They are in silicon valley and all of those parts are within a day of arrival when ordered.

We have been screwed over by Bitsyncom. The negative crew acknowledges that, but then continues their tirades against TH for issues that are in the past, have no bearing on chips, or are deficits that may or may not truly exist. I know you guys would like everyone to join your bandwagon and mass refund. That is ridiculous, and we could all end up losing all or part of our money. So, aside from that, what do all of the negative crew recommend that we do?

Let's hear some constructive ideas. Not whining here on the thread, calling the FTC, or mass refunds. We've all heard those ideas. What constructive ideas do any of you have to get us our boards?

Here is my idea: the people who are wigging out here every day should put in for refunds. I'm sure there are more people that are resigned to waiting for their products than are wanting refunds. Then you can be happy with getting your money back and you can pay Bitfury of KNC for their miners. If they run behind, you can hound them on their threads.

I just don't see any point in screaming from the hilltops every day on this thread when all you have to do is put in for a refund. If you payed with BTC or wire transfer, I am sorry. The daily nitpicking of minutiae is truly ridiculous. I've been to TH/s office twice, interviewed them, shown proof of their orders. Others have verified the components stacked in TH/s office waiting for the chips to arrive.

We all are feeling pain to one extent or another guys. It's understandable. I'm not thrilled by any stretch of the imagination to have to wait for weeks or months (BFL orders) for products I have ordered. It's frustrating and frankly, depressing. 

All we can do now is wait for the chips to arrive, or ask for refunds. Make your choice. It's as simple as that.      

Not a mistake.
I'm referring to why we are involved in Bitcoin in general atomic. We aren't customers of Bitcoin. We are buying products that allow us to invest time and money in Bitcoin. We are investors. Looking beyond the little world of this TH thread and others, we are investors.
I'm protecting my investment, btw. If you all try to force TH into bankruptcy, we all lose.

No, most of us just want to point out very valid complaints that still go unresolved and then listen to others state how baseless they are when it is plain as day. Customer service sucks before the product even ships? What the hell happens when they are hosting your boxes, or you have hardware issues? It's a valid concern, and will gladly put it to rest when we hear tickets getting answered on things as simple as account questions.

There are valid complaints out there, and there are some over the top complaints. The facts are that they have broken various promises that they made since day 1, and therefore have not earned blind trust. Yes, we get it, you are protecting your investment, but lets be honest here.. In terms of refunds, they already stated that if the chips didn't show, they would try to refund a portion of the money. Huh? Who gave them that right? They may be in the Cryptoworld, but things don't work that way in the US.

I think that is why people had a sudden interest in getting refunds, at least those that were wise enough to use a mitigated risk strategy.

Let's not make TH a victim here.  I think Terrahash has big boy pants, and when they chose to run a business primarily on other people's money, they took a bigger risk. Let them speak for themselves, as neither you nor Bargraphics have any official affiliation with Terrahash, and last I knew, they didn't appoint either one of you as official spokespeople. You mock people that don't want to lose money? Maybe you give up on your money too easily, I myself, tend to make it work for me, and don't turn my back to money that tries to walk away when it can easily be brought back to me. Maybe the true lesson is that you shouldn't use a method you can't easily get back when the risk turns to be too great, and the product you purchased takes longer than expected, regardless of whose fault it is. A wise farmer that has a field full of corn, is still going to do everything he can to keep a crow from eating a single stalk of corn.

You see your task on this mission as protecting the subject at any cost, whether it means ignoring valid concerns and trying to dismiss every negative statement about TH, true or false. You'd gain a lot more credibility if you accepted and acknowledged the legitimate complaints. Myself, I don't like cheerleaders that route for their team no matter what, and my garbage will be here as long as the cheerleaders keep spewing crap like your last message.


I corrected your mistake in the above quote.

Not if you are investing in BTC for the long run. ASIC sellers are not selling ROI, they are selling products that mine Bitcoins. I'm in Bitcoin for the long run, and I expect that my miners will more than make ROI in the long run. If someone got into this to make a quick buck (which is clear that many people did), they are in the wrong state of mind for an investor.

Irrelevant. If you need BTC price to rise above the price it was at when you made your purchase to break even or make a profit you made the wrong choice.

Member of Silent Majority here:

TH have 40k chips on order. I personally saw the Bitsyncom order page with Amir's name and address as the person ordering the chips. I posted the pictures weeks ago.

Aside from the constant complaining from our script kiddie friends who live in their parent's basements, I'm sure the large majority of buyers are just quietly waiting and hoping to receive their boards as soon as possible.

Everyone in the bitcoin community are waiting for something guys. Everyone. The only people who aren't upset and frustrated about their orders are KNC miner buyers. I'm sure if we get beyond 9/02 without an order sent out, the guys at KNC will start getting a barrage of freaked out posts. TH and all of the other companies are to one degree or another, startups. How many startups have you given your money to in the past? Startups have growing pains, delayed shipments, logistical problems, and other unforeseen issues to tackle. I think that TH has done a pretty good job at working through the issues. They noted that the customer service aspects were lacking and they said that it will be fixed. All other areas look like they are doing the very best they can given the circumstances. The fact that they didn't spend all of the money we sent them showed shrewd planning on their part. Instead of spending nearly every penny they sent us on parts (their profit margin is very thin), they decided to hold off until they received tracking numbers from Bitsyncom. That has allowed them to have the funds available to refund the people who don't have the stomach to wait. However those refunds were processed (whether forced by Paypal or not), they had the foresight to keep some of the funds available so that you could get your refund. That money isn't pulled from some magical place by Paypal. It has to come from the Seller. Otherwise they freeze the Seller's account.

I don't know why certain individuals can't understand that we all are being screwed over by Bitsyncom (Yifu), TH included. Put yourself in Amir's place right now. I'm sure you will say that you would do everything differently and give some pie in the sky speech about how you would have used your own money to buy all of the parts and held everyone's funds in escrow, but that is not how a startup functions.

When you get right down to it, you guys just want to complain. I'm sure that when you get your boards, you'll complain about the quality of the packing material used or some such other bs.

Everyone that is on the fence about this: don't listen to these guys who say that we should all get refunds immediately. Not only would it cause great problems for TH, more importantly, it will harm everyone else who is waiting patiently for their boards.

If you want a refund, put in for a refund and stop filling this thread with garbage. We have said that for the last couple of months. File for your refund and leave everyone alone. Stop trying to convince everyone to join you, like some kid on a playground: "Is everyone with me? Let's get out of here!"

Yes difficulty is rising, but so is the price of BTC. Since it's inception, BTC has basically doubled in value each year. Think about what that would mean for next year. Not bad ROI. In addition to mining, I'm using a bot to trade BTC and it's doing very well. Diversification is the key to success in any investment.

We are all taking a chance on this together, and if we're right, we will do very well. If we are wrong, lesson learned. Don't invest money in something if you can't stomach losing it. Buy bonds or stock in Coca Cola. Like forex, BTC is for grown ups.

It could be worse I guess, ya could be one of those poor souls on Ebay still trying to sell a BFL pre order almost a year old.... which will make little or no money..... and to you guys that are still trying to sell  Klondike boards on ebay, how can you even attempt to sell, (in good conscience), knowing the chips situation. I feel in someways you are discrediting the Klondike Design or its Manufactures by posting them in there under the circumstances,,,,kinda looks and aligns itself to the Butterfly's Labs debacle. Lets try to preserve the Klondike Reputation. You will sell them faster and make more money if you wait until you have them in hand. Whenever that may be

Ditto

No I didn't.  I might have, but I didn't have the cash available.  But I was seriously considering it.  However, I've read enough about Butterfly Labs to know the risks, and it wasn't a risk I was willing to take.  The same information that I used to make my decision was available to everyone else, including you.  Some are willing to wait it out, although I doubt they're happy about it.  Some want refunds.  Some just want to complain.  Me, I was just too much of a pussy to send the money.

You may not have agreed to invest, but ultimately that's what you did.  If you didn't realize it then you've only yourself to blame for that.  It seemed pretty obvious to me.  Terrahash has stated time and again that delivery will be two weeks after receipt of chips, and as of yet they're true to their word.

I'll say it again, kickstarter or not, comparing a startup business with a multibillion dollar corporation is ludicrous.  Even if Terrahash didn't need your money to buy chips from Avalon you were still willing to trust an unknown business with it.  Even with the best of intentions new businesses sometimes fail, (and it's not a rare occurrence).  Sometimes they truly are scammers, in which case as soon as pre-orders were filled they would have disappeared off the face of the earth and you'd never see a dime again.  The obvious seems to escape people on here, but Terrahash are nothing more than a struggling startup trying to bring a product to market while they're underfunded and up against supply issues beyond their control.  And anyone who sent them money should have sent it in the full knowledge that that was the case and they're not goddamnedmotherfuckingSony.

Yes, well it was a good try.  I'll certainly never buy anything that has something to do with Avalon again, unless it's available, in stock, and can be had next day delivery.   I have no respect left for Yifu and BitSyncom, he screwed over the entire DIY community.

Food for thought....

My 45 g/hash's of boards ordered on June 18th would have earned about $128.00 per day in BTC (then). Now 45 gh will earn a hair over $39.00 and dropping like a lead ballon    so sad for all of us,,,and I'm not blaming TH at all, in this observation.

You aren't entirely wrong. However, we knew the lines where blurry and we put our money in anyway. Call it customer, investor, investomer, or something else. History should have highlighted the risks of this pre-order business. Things can go wrong and I'm not going to bash TH for something that was out of their control. Have they done some things wrong, sure and they owned up to it. They've shown hospitality in this thread and to those who visited them so I'm not seeing the evilness.



Everyone knows that the unhappy people always make the most noise.

I know the answer

"we didnt actually place an order for the asics! Just in case avalon didnt deliver we could refund part of the monies!"

Lmao