Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 225. (Read 723903 times)

Well, lenders just got a 50% fee increase, fewer features and virtually no compensation.

So many Lender questions,

Does anyone here actually Trade,

Any Traders here at all ?,

Feel like I'm in the middle of a Banker's Session.

I've read the announcement and have to admit that these are potentially very dangerous changes in my opinion. I even start to feel uneasy trusting Bitfinex with the sums I have deposited there.
Let me explain in detail why I feel these changes are not positive at all in my opinion.

1. The fee structure for trading seems fine. It's a popular model although I think offering something like the Vault of Satoshi "flatrate" would have been even more attractive.

2. Previously unannounced percentage fees for fiat withdrawals. Bitfinex, are you kidding me? With this changed you have just stated that our money is basically trapped at Bitfinex. I chose BFX because it had NO percentage withdrawal fees with a reasonable fixed fee which was just doubled as well. What if you suddenly announce tomorrow that the withdrawal fee is one percent? Considering the already obscure international wire transfer system this makes fiat withdrawals extremely unattracitve closely to obsolete.

3. Change in the swap fee structure and insurance: This is by far the biggest and most dangerous change. You have just increased the fees by 50 % for the removal of a feature that was basically never available and not thought out at all. If you had provided completely transparent insurance I would have gladly taken it for 30 % but insurance was always a mirage.


I can tell you what that means. It means that BFX tries to make lenders believe that their swaps are insured when there are actually no sufficient funds to insure the swaps in case of a serious crash. They just assume they will be able to halt (manipulate) trading fast enough for nobody to be able to close their shorts in time.

This is extremely dangerous as it basically takes the "indifferent for BFX p2p lending" away from the platform making it BFX the liquidityp provider who borrows the money to lend it out. We have seen how BTCe has handled the flash crash and why this change adds serious counterparty risk.

On top of that the illusion of insured loans will lead people to offer more swaps hereby increasing the supply of swaps and mutually decreasing the lending rate. The decreased lending rate will encourage people to more reckless margin trading and actually increase the risk for flash crashes.

"effectively insured" is a really dangerous term and I just can repeate that these changes have made BFX a whole lot more untrustworthy for me.

The changes come with a quite short notice time (announced after in effect), but I like that you sent mails about it.
It's not *that* revolutionary changes, so I'm all fine with the short notice.

I would prefer lower liquidity fees than 15%, obviously.

Can you confirm you have enough funds to stay in business after a huge flashcrash with avanalche liquidations? Almost 16M$ are lent out at the moment. If yes, I'm fine with even a 15% fee.

Also, it doesn't make any difference if I provide to the *liquidity* book, or take from the liquidity book, right?

Ente

Yep, used it a lot too..

full ack +
please repair the website for android browser
+ websocket api
+route to stamp feature
+dogecoin
+no more timeout on the website session /no redirect to garbage-screen after re-login

I can put up with a 5% fee increase if everything is insured.  But who's the provider and how do we know they can cover for the $15 million out there?  Is there a cap?  Does it keep up with the loan book's growth.  The loan book more than double in a few months.  If BTC flash crashed to $100 and stay there for a few weeks, can the platform stay solvent?

2nd that!

And while we are being all democratic, how a vote on the swap rate going up? I never insured nor do I want to be forced to pay a higher fee for insurance. wtf?

Please give us Notify button back. I use it all the time =( There's no other option to be notified on time for ppl not sitting on bitfinex all the time.

Me so confused on this fee stuff  

So say in the margin section, I have a limit order to go long if price were to reach say $400. After a few weeks I realize this will never happen and I cancel it - am I charged a fee?

Just check out the new fee structure,

International wire    0.100% of the withdrawal amount, with a minimum of $20.00
Charged on your existing swaps, paid by the liquidity provider   15.0% (of the swaps generated by active contracts)

If I'm wiring $100k, that will be $100 USD, which is a bit excessive, esp I know I'll be withdrawing to a local HSBC HK account!  In addition, the lending fee is now up to 15%, which is a huge increase.  I highly recommend removing the flash return rate to allow for more efficient rate discovery instead of having rate artificially manipulated (I know Ente has other opinion on this), as borrower always have option to return fund early but lenders can never recall.  Margin loan outstanding approach $16 million yet interest yet the FRR keeps declining.

lastly, there's no more mention of lender insurance, so I suppose that is gone completely, or are all lender funds now 'insured'?

+1, I literally love the Notify function, i want her back.

Also the 50% raise in lending fee is a bit harsh.

So that means that any market orders
will automatically be market takers and fee applied,

In addition to closing a position at market price
will automatically be market takers and fee applied.

Is this correct ?

Or in short this is to discourage the use of market orders
and promote the use of limit orders.

This also applies when using the blue "Close" position button
on the margin trading page which are closed at market price ?


Regarding the Withdrawals,
They are now $20 plus the 1%,

and the deposits are $20,


Is all of the above correct ?


Maybe you guys have not noticed lately,
but the btc market is sucking wind lately,
5-Point moves all day,
which fees already make cost-prohibited to trade,
and now more fees, great.

Thanks

P.S.:  Ighor, please add Huobi.com to Qt-Trader as fast as possible,
        Huobi has zero-fees, 0%, making it possible to trade the 5-point channels even.
        https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.5647822
        Meanwhile China is trading with zero fees, while we are having more fees piled upon us, oh well, whoever said the English speaking btc market is lucrative.

Just having our funds on deposit there is being a liquidity provider, with zero interest, but of course none of us are "obliged" to stay, geez Louise !

thanks for the good suggestion.....
working on it.....

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

I really liked this feature and in my experience it always worked pretty reliable.
Sad to see you decided to remove it 

(that said I of course agree that a simpler interface is always an improvement)

Technically, whether you are a maker or not is not a reference to Ticker Price. Ticker Price is the last execution price, which may or may not be refelctive of current market.

Think of it this way: In general, if your order is not executed immediately, then you are a liquidity provider, and thus a market maker (although market maker in the real world has a more specific meaning that comes with rights and responsibilities). If your order is executed immediately, then you have taken liquidity provided by someone else.

So, if you are buying, if your price is below the ask price, then you are a market maker.
If you are selling, if your price it above the bid price, then you are a market maker.
In both instances, your order will be added to the order book and thus you become a liquidity provider.

The one possible exception is if there are hidden orders. In theory, the hidden orders should not be considered a liquidity provider, and you should get the benefit. Another exception is if your order and another order hit at virtually the same time. Whoever hits first is the market maker.

as usual only when the order is executed

have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team

thx for the clarification giancarlo, i better understand your explanations than the ones of your college, his way of writing doesnt seem to fit my synapsees well..

and when is the fee due? on making an order or on execution? (is oyvinds right with  his explanation?)

Definitions:

1) a market maker is anybody adding liquidity to the order book:

a)If the ticker price is 633 and I insert a limit BTC selling order at 635 I provide liquidity to the order book ( with my action I created an extra ask line on the order book)  

b)If the ticker price is 633 and I insert a limit BTC buying order at 631 I provide liquidity to the order book ( with my action I created an extra bid line on the order book)

2) a market taker is anybody subtracting liquidity to the order book:

c) If the ticker price is 633 and I insert a limit BTC selling order at 633 (or lower) or a market order,  I take away liquidity from the order book ( with my action I took away 1/or more bid lines from the order book)
  
d) If the ticker price is 633 and I insert a limit BTC buying order at 633 (or higher) or a market order,  I take away liquidity from the order book ( with my action I took away 1/or more ask lines on the order book)


With this move Bitfinex basically wants to reward people adding liquidity to our order book as this will provide a better service to our customers by avoiding slippage in case of big orders (liquidity a.k.a as thickness is good, slippage is bad).

The amount of fees generated by a trade (the sum of the 2 legs of a trade) remains unchanged for Bitfinex.

We are not making more money on trading fees, we are just rewarding book "thickeners" at the expenses of book "thinners".

It must be noticed that the worse case fee scenario at Bitfinex represent the best case fee scenario on other platforms (0.20%).  

We also believe that the market will find a balance and not decrease the volume of trades, but only time will tell if we were right in our assumption or not.

This new fee introduction has therefore to be considered an experiment that will only be confirmed if we see that no major negative changes will occur to our volume (we believe it will actually be beneficial as it will attract more traders and therefore generate more volume, but we are not 100% certain of that).

I hope this helps

Have a good day

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team  
 
  

Correct me if I am wrong!

You place a limit order -> you "add" liquidity -> 0.1% fee if your order gets executed (BTC/LTC Executed in Last 30 Days < 500). No fee if you cancel your limit order.
(edit: As oyvinds said: 0.1% fee only if you don't place your limit buy order above or your limit sell order below the current price ^^)
You place a market order -> you "remove" liquidity -> 0.2% fee (BTC/LTC Executed in Last 30 Days < 500)

That means that limit orders are cheaper now, fee for market orders is 0.2%.