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Topic: [OFFICIAL]Bitfinex.com first Bitcoin P2P lending platform for leverage trading - page 325. (Read 723990 times)

hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
This is beyond the scope of your question, but why not use Btc-e as yet another pool of liquidity? Have you found Btc-e operators to be untrustworthy?

This was discussed at length this spring here in the forum. The operators of Bitfinex pointed out that the legal problems are prohibitive. Bitfinex wants to operate by the rules, and BTC-e in Russia just has too much gray areas. Same with any bitcoin exchange in China.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
Why the heck has Bitfinex a problem, which wouldn't be there when it was just a BTC stock exchange?
...
My guess is, it is actually a problem of perception.
Iin the case of Bitfinex, it looks so easy when both exchanges are linked. But we are lacking a sensible way to make people feel that limited bandwidth.

Now, according to liberal theory, people dislike (and fight against) rules , but they are easy to "buy" when there is an incentive, and when they can feel a feedback. Thus we should search a solution to make that liquidity level tangible and perceptible all the time. Not only when it is too late, and funds are used up, but all the time.
  • have a display all the time, similar prominent as the exchange rate.
  • that is: make that liquidity level a state variable, which can be easy grasped, like e.g. a percent value or such
  • to create the feedback: add a premium for trading on Bitstamp. And tie that premium dynamically to aforementioned variable. That variable and the resulting premium is applied in real time, at the moment the opening trade is executed.
  • that is: money on Bitstamp is not gone immediately, but instead it becomes more expensive and thus slows down the excessive use and makes using the internal exchange really interesting for traders, since it moves their orders ahead in the order book. And there is an additional risk for traders to use Bitstamp, which isn't there on the internal exchange

Whenever we finish money on BSTP, BTC start trading with a spread on BFX. Giving an incentive to people that will force them to sell on BSTP when they can sell for more money on BFX is the typical example of game theory: individuals act in a selfish way and simply don't do it, unless "the house" will compensate for the difference.
Now everyone knows this is impossible to be done ( we make 0.1% commission, how can we compensate for a 3-5% spread?).
Do you have any idea of how to do it without causing a loss on our side?
Are we trying to defeat gravity?

Things are relative, you know.
Of course you can't pay people a bonus for selling on Bitstamp.
But you can demand a compensation for the problems people are causing by excessively buying at Bitstamp.

My reasoning is that the problem is perception: what your platform offers is brilliant; actually it looks too easy to people. It looks so natural that traders think it just must be this way and they have a right for exploiting all those arbitrage possibilities. That's why I am proposing to let people "feel" the strain. Whenever there is excessive buying on Bitstamp, this would decrease a certain visible indicator and at the same time make buying on Bitstamp automatically more and more expensive. Selling on Bitstamp and trading on the internal exchange would not be affected. (And the other way round when the liquidity problem is somewhere else) This way, the Ask side of Bitstamp would be moved up in the combined orderbook, which creates the incentive to sell at that higher rate. Of course you make an additional gain margin this way, which needs to be spend in a way which feels justified to the users. You could e.g. pick up the other proposal and let lenders participate on that additional margin, on the condition that they agree to lock their money for at least xx days (so you can send it to Bitstamp and use it there for some time).

The basic idea is to create a continuous feedback loop. So that money on Bitstamp won't be exhausted entirely, since buying on Bitstamp becomes exessively overpriced. This way the system would regulate itself. You would just need to define that automatic, controlling factor such, that it truthfully reflects the efforts, costs and limited bandwidth of the real-world connection between Bitfinex and Bitstamp.
legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
You could theoretically use Ripple as a way to provide liquidity on Bitstamp.
By purchasing BitstampUSD with Bitcoins or other means and then depositing these into your account.
At the moment it is not possible in large scale, but it could be worth looking into.
Just a suggestion.

Ps. Not sure if the actual liquidity it would provide is so low that it is not worth the effort but it could be worth looking into.
The liquidity is not there at the moment, but if you put in the orders in large quantities, they will be noticed. Liquidity is a chicken-egg problem and can only be solved if you actually do something against it.
Ripple is a small community which has its benefits too - if you put in a learge announcement, that you are going to make the market on Bitstamp USD and really follow up on this, anyone active in Ripple trading will know.

Anyways, the bigger issue I see is that it might be a bit hard to justify buying USD.Bitstamp with BTC - after all they want to transfer only USD, and not do trades (they could easily sell BTC on Bitstamp for more USD - the problem is that they are not theirs!). Working with a local gateway (there are 3 or 4 major Chinese Gateways offering CNY IOUs) might work though, especially if you then make the market by offering exchange rates towards Bitstamp.USD that are competitive. It might at least be worth a shot - in general either they do it behind closed doors or they are really too risk averse when it comes to trying out a few new things like trading a couple 1000 USD on Kraken or Ripple or re-opening the MtGox bridge once more for selling fiat to have more depth on that end...
hero member
Activity: 763
Merit: 500
Speaking of the referral program, as there any possible way that there could be a referral fee for opening up new lending accounts.  I have helped numerous friends setup 2FA, learn how the site works, helped them get some USD to lend out on the site, etc...

It would be nice if there could be a referral fee on the interest that they earn.  It doesn't have to come out of your cut, but right now you guys take 10%, maybe it could even be a variable that the person setting up the account sets and is agreed upon with who they set the account up for.

I know for sure of the 4 people I setup, they would be happy to pay 10% of their earned interest for all the work I did getting them up and running.  I would not make this a referral code system, but more of an invite system where I set the parameters of my interest cut and then send them an invite to their email.

They sign up with the link and it's good to go.
donator
Activity: 1064
Merit: 1000
The Great Bitfinex Game!

1) Bitfinex will pay a bounty of 1 BTC for anybody that comes out with an idea that actually makes sense in order to improve our liquidity on Bitstamp
2) Anybody that will post an idea that is flawed, doesn't make sense, will never work for the reasons I will be honored to explain or just say things like " why don't you transfer to Bitstamp more money if 2 millions a day is not enough" will have to pay 1 BTC cent to the address:
1J14J1ZR11CsFKXyhneXpfVBp34ovQuh7C

All the coins collected by this game will be donated to www.seansoutpost.com , a homeless outreach in Florida accepting bitcoins.

Smiley

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
 


Here's an actual suggestion Smiley
You could theoretically use Ripple as a way to provide liquidity on Bitstamp.
By purchasing BitstampUSD with Bitcoins or other means and then depositing these into your account.
At the moment it is not possible in large scale, but it could be worth looking into.
Just a suggestion.

Ps. Not sure if the actual liquidity it would provide is so low that it is not worth the effort but it could be worth looking into.

//DeaDTerra
Han
newbie
Activity: 40
Merit: 0
The Great Bitfinex Game!

1) Bitfinex will pay a bounty of 1 BTC for anybody that comes out with an idea that actually makes sense in order to improve our liquidity on Bitstamp
2) Anybody that will post an idea that is flawed, doesn't make sense, will never work for the reasons I will be honored to explain or just say things like " why don't you transfer to Bitstamp more money if 2 millions a day is not enough" will have to pay 1 BTC cent to the address:
1J14J1ZR11CsFKXyhneXpfVBp34ovQuh7C

All the coins collected by this game will be donated to www.seansoutpost.com , a homeless outreach in Florida accepting bitcoins.

Smiley

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
 



This is beyond the scope of your question, but why not use Btc-e as yet another pool of liquidity? Have you found Btc-e operators to be untrustworthy?
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange
I too would like to know where to find my referral code. I can't find it anywhere. Nor can I find any info about what the referral bonuses are except that the person referred gets a 10% discount for 30 days.

Sangaman

please PM me your username and I will add you to our referral program.

Thanks

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
I too would like to know where to find my referral code. I can't find it anywhere. Nor can I find any info about what the referral bonuses are except that the person referred gets a 10% discount for 30 days.
hero member
Activity: 602
Merit: 500
For the not so smart people -- like myself -- I typically need some time, while I'm asking myself: what is actually really the problem here?

Why the heck has Bitfinex a problem, which wouldn't be there when it was just a BTC stock exchange?
What would happen in the latter case? Then if everyone wants to go long, at some point, all the money provided by the lenders would have been used, and trading would come to a stop altogether. Users would be pissed likewise, but then the answer would be: just put more fiat money on the platform and provide liquidity.

Thus, considered from that side, we do have actually the same problem. Just we have two exchanges, with limited bandwidth in between. Thus, people are sucking up the liquidity on Bitstamp, and trading there comes to a halt. So what is the problem? My guess is, it is actually a problem of perception. When you have only one exchange, you can communicate the limited liquidity and people will understand. But in the case of Bitfinex, it looks so easy (and works so well under normal circumstances) when both exchanges are linked. But we are lacking a sensible way to make people feel that limited bandwidth.

Now, according to liberal theory, people dislike (and fight against) rules , but they are easy to "buy" when there is an incentive, and when they can feel a feedback. Thus we should search a solution to make that liquidity level tangible and perceptible all the time. Not only when it is too late, and funds are used up, but all the time.

Some arbitrary ideas to make that happen (probably there are a lot of better ways, just my fantasy is lacking).
  • have a display all the time, similar prominent as the exchange rate.
  • that is: make that liquidity level a state variable, which can be easy grasped, like e.g. a percent value or such
  • to create the feedback: add a premium for trading on Bitstamp. And tie that premium dynamically to aforementioned variable. That variable and the resulting premium is applied in real time, at the moment the opening trade is executed.
  • that is: money on Bitstamp is not gone immediately, but instead it becomes more expensive and thus slows down the excessive use and makes using the internal exchange really interesting for traders, since it moves their orders ahead in the order book. And there is an additional risk for traders to use Bitstamp, which isn't there on the internal exchange

Just my two cents whatsoever -- personally more interested in the discussion and the process of working out solutions
legendary
Activity: 1870
Merit: 1023
I'm not sure that Slovenia is that risky.  Is the problem its high interest rates?  They really aren't high when compared to historical averages - it is only recently that countries with 7-10% interest rates have been seen to have high rates.

Looks like the current 10 year rate is a mere 5.7%.
http://www.investing.com/rates-bonds/slovenia-government-bonds

First idea: I'm guessing that you could buy insurance that would cover the risk of a Slovenia default or haircut.


Second idea:  You could do more to promote shorting (ex. advertising, how-to articles, publicize how cheap shorting is).  If I'm correct in my reasoning, this indirectly increases liquidity by decreasing the demand for Bitstamp BTC. You can short BTC for a mere 2% APR.  Even in the biggest bear markets, the level of shorting (USD value of borrowed BTC) rarely exceeds the level of going long (borrowed USD).  While when bitcoin was flat, bulls typically exceeded bears by 2:1.

full member
Activity: 133
Merit: 100
How can I disable does irritating margin call emails?

Also the huge red box that my margin is in danger apears way too soon IMO.

Greetings

Same here, was really irritated. Consequently I closed a long that was doing very well (40% profit over current margin balance), because I feared that within the next minutes this (including many other users' margin positions) would be force closed. In currently variable market depth this could've led to much larger losses (given an open position in 3-digit bitcoins).

Anyway, I'm aware that the migration phase isn't over, so I'm willing to take the risk. Still want to make use of the steady and predictable rise we experience these days.
member
Activity: 111
Merit: 10
How can I disable does irritating margin call emails?

Also the huge red box that my margin is in danger apears way too soon IMO.

Greetings
full member
Activity: 181
Merit: 100
This seems interesting: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1r4d6t/bitstamps_streaming_api_and_exploitation/
TL;DR: Bitstamp's undocumented streaming API seems to reveal out-of-order trade execution that can be exploited to steal margins from large buys/sells.
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange
Easier way would be working a deal with bitstamp for a USD credit line collateraliced in BTC. You can even use some multisig addresses to hold the collateral, removing some trust issues. When you need more USD in bitstamp, you can send more BTC to the address. When BTC raises, your collateral becomes more valuable, and your credit gets better.
But on a crashing market you'll need to have a lot of BTC on hold to refill the collateral, or that could end on a disaster...

You already answered to your question.
It could end in a disaster.
Nejc is not a stupid and he would never accept it.
Would you?
If yes I have a bridge to sell.....

Wink

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team


legendary
Activity: 2618
Merit: 1007
I guess Bitstamp has other things to do than setting up a collateralized loan contract with an entity in Hongkong(!) collateralized with internet funny money (as far as lawyers are concerned).
sr. member
Activity: 325
Merit: 250
Our highest capital is the Confidence we build.
Easier way would be working a deal with bitstamp for a USD credit line collateraliced in BTC. You can even use some multisig addresses to hold the collateral, removing some trust issues. When you need more USD in bitstamp, you can send more BTC to the address. When BTC raises, your collateral becomes more valuable, and your credit gets better.
But on a crashing market you'll need to have a lot of BTC on hold to refill the collateral, or that could end on a disaster...
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange
Third party financial institution, which can guarantee large amount credit line or factoring? May be the same Slovenia bank knows some solution?

Slovenia has a systemic risk embedded, no way we'll put your money there.
 
Third party financial institutions taking risk on a bitcoin related business? You must be kidding me.....
If you find one you win 10 BTC, not only 1.
Wink

Thanks anyway

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange
He won't lose any money in slippage if he puts up a limit order (it might sound imbecile to some, but most people do place market orders, including the ones that think it's imbecile).
People rarely change defaults... how about as a first step making the default a pre-filled limit order routed only to Bitfinex? It would be nice to set the "only to Bitfinex" default to something else in the account settings of course. Not claiming a BTC for that one, but if you think people just quickly clicking buttons are a problem, do something about it!

Customers will then execute market orders and due to the fact that it's pre-set only on BFX they will blame on us the fact that they lost money due to slippage (it's always our fault when they lose).
Raphael wants the customer to always pick by default  the best possible option ( he even embedded commissions in the price to make things easier) and I must say I share his view.

Thank you anyway, nice try

Wink

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
sr. member
Activity: 446
Merit: 250
CAT.EX Exchange
The Great Bitfinex Game!

1) Bitfinex will pay a bounty of 1 BTC for anybody that comes out with an idea that actually makes sense in order to improve our liquidity on Bitstamp
2) Anybody that will post an idea that is flawed, doesn't make sense, will never work for the reasons I will be honored to explain or just say things like " why don't you transfer to Bitstamp more money if 2 millions a day is not enough" will have to pay 1 BTC cent to the address:
1J14J1ZR11CsFKXyhneXpfVBp34ovQuh7C

All the coins collected by this game will be donated to www.seansoutpost.com , a homeless outreach in Florida accepting bitcoins.

Smiley

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
 

Allow deposits of funds (especially USD) directly on Bitstamp instead of having us wire them to you. If Bitstamp doesn't allow that directly (haven't checked in a while if I can transfer funds to another Bitstamp account on their platform), go via Ripple for example - it works there for sure and you have an account on there already for months anyways. Time to use it.
If KYC etc. is the problem, just don't credit the balance until the user is verified or only offer this option to verified users. You can also bounce the payment on Ripple...

1 BTC to: 1riwQCsBudrKu44hF8yvQfg2aeMHW1DvC

Current KYC/AML regulation doesn't allow this to happen.

Good idea, but sorry... not possible.

Giancarlo
Bitfinex Team
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